Does racism equal hate?

[Scott Lloyd]

22 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well now we're going to get stuck in a game of semantics, it feels like.  Helping those who have been mistreated is not really opposing self-reliance--it's not keeping them dependent upon handouts.  It's promoting self-reliance too--give them help so they can have a foundation on which to build just like the rest of society has inherently.  My point in mentioning tough love is, if we frame each other's position in terms they don't favor, as you did with liberal politicians, then we'll just be arguing terms.  We'll get stuck at the very surface of the discussion.  

“Giving them a foundation on which to build” — so long as they stay on the plantation and continue to parrot the leftist ideology. When they begin to depart therefrom, they have become too uppity in the view of the leftists and are disparaged as Neo-Nazis or (ironically) white supremacists (as happened to Candace Owens) or as “black faces who don’t want to be black voices,” in the words of one of the members of “the Squad.” 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The fight against racism is not primarily about welfare or affirmative action or whatever. It is about actual equality. Fighting over those peripheral issues is a good way to stir everyone up to anger and hatred so the problem is dismissed or turned into a weapon so of course politicians go there.

Primarily leftist politicians. 

[blarsen]

31 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That God spends so much time on it. It is not just keeping the promise, it is that God made the promise at all. He certainly did not have to. Why? What does it entail that I am missing? Why does the Book of Mormon written for our day spend so much time on it? The promises are offered to all on the earth who will repent so why the emphasis on the blood of Israel?

How about:  he was really impressed with Abraham.  God had to start somewhere in rebooting his 'work'.  Abraham was a stand-out.  A good role model and subject to hang a new 'dispensation' on.  And the emphasis in the Book of Mormon reflects how the Lehite posterity, mainly the Nephites, still thought of themselves as the 'chosen' Israelitish people.  Nephi himself was only able to convince Laman, Lemuel and the Sons of Ishmael to get on board with building his ship, after a long discourse/diatribe on how what they were doing could be likened to the Exodus and Moses (along w/a few well-placed threats and even an assault).

So we're just seeing how the Lehites thought about themselves, coupled w/God's focus on keeping his promises to all the tribes in the last days, including returning them to their 'lands of promise'.  That part of the story from the BofM wasn't written for us, per se.  What was meant for us was the emphasis on following the Messiah and how to do that.

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by blarsen

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

True, but what’s controversial about such a stance? 

I do think those terms are thrown around these days with reckless abandon, and <that> can be controversial. Anytime Candace Owens is called a white supremacist or Ben Shapiro a Neo-Nazi, you know there is lunacy involved in the accusations. 

I despise Shapiro and his ridiculous conspiracy nuttiness but he dislikes Bannon and Trump so he is not all bad. 

Candace Owens is just an idiot who takes cheap nonsensical political jabs. I especially like the one about how women who do not have children change and go insane. These kind of people are a dime a dozen these days. Her announcing that she is a proud “Uncle Tom” means no one should take her seriously. She is just trying to shock people.

The sooner this kind of debris is wiped out and we put the extremists back in the corner and tell them to shut up the better.

Bill Weld 2020! Make America Sane Again!

Or get Kasich to run again. I liked him.

[The Nehor]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Primarily leftist politicians. 

No, politicians on the far right love it too because it lets them deny that racism exists and those leftist nuts prove it. It is a beautiful natural mutually parasitic relationship and the prognosis is bad. We should shoot them both. It is kinder that way.

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, blarsen said:

How about:  he was really impressed with Abraham.  God had to start somewhere in rebooting his 'work'.  Abraham was a stand-out.  A good role model and subject to hang a new 'dispensation' on.  And the emphasis in the Book of Mormon reflects how the Lehite posterity, mainly the Nephites, still thought of themselves as the 'chosen' Israelitish people.  Nephi himself was only able to convince Laman, Lemuel and the Sons of Ishmael to get on board with building his ship, after a long discourse/diatribe on how what they were doing could be likened to the Exodus and Moses (along w/a few well-placed threats and even an assault).

So we're just seeing how the Lehites thought about themselves, coupled w/God's focus on keeping his promises to all the tribes in the last days, including returning them to their 'lands of promise'.  That part of the story from the BofM wasn't written for us, per se.  What was meant for us was the emphasis on following the Messiah and how to do that.

 

Except that Mormon and Moroni were big on it too. Not to the same extent Nephi was but definitely there and they were writing for us. There is even a plea to the Lamanites directly telling them they are of Israel. And even if it is something of an anachronism there are over 50 references to Israel in the D&C. God still finds it important.

Still pretty sure I am missing something.

Edited July 24, 2019 by The Nehor

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I despise Shapiro and his ridiculous conspiracy nuttiness but he dislikes Bannon and Trump so he is not all bad. 

Candace Owens is just an idiot who takes cheap nonsensical political jabs. I especially like the one about how women who do not have children change and go insane. These kind of people are a dime a dozen these days. Her announcing that she is a proud “Uncle Tom” means no one should take her seriously. She is just trying to shock people.

The sooner this kind of debris is wiped out and we put the extremists back in the corner and tell them to shut up the better.

Bill Weld 2020! Make America Sane Again!

Or get Kasich to run again. I liked him.

Without trying to look them up, I’m fairly certain you have mangled the quotes from Owens, if not inventing them out of whole cloth. 

And I have no idea what you mean by Shapiro’s “conspiracy nuttiness.” That makes me question whether you even know who he is. 

Both Shapiro and Owens are brilliant observers and commentators, and Owens would be my choice as the first female and the second black President of the United States. 

And if you intend to “put the extremists back in the corner,” that pretty much sidelines the entire panel of candidates for the Democratic nomination for President. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Without trying to look them up, I’m fairly certain you have mangled the quotes from Owens, if not inventing them out of whole cloth. 

Both Shapiro and Owens are brilliant observers and commentators, and Owens would be my choice as the first female and the second black President of the United States. 

“You can feel free to call me an Uncle Tom. It does not affect me. You know why? Because I actually read the book — Uncle Tom was the hero.”

“Interesting theory presented to me at lunch. Do you guys think something bio-chemically happens to women who don’t marry and/or have children? Evidentiary support: @chelseahandler @kathygriffin @SarahKSilverman.“

She is an idiot but no surprise here. Based on what you have said you have a track record of choosing idiots as presidents.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

These are more distortions and an attempt to apply the obnoxious concern of "racism" in today's present world. 
The verses in question have nothing to do with race, but covenant. The NT is pretty clear that Jesus' main objective was to teach Israel, the covenant people, rather than the world at large. That objective of teaching the gentiles was to come later after Jesus' resurrection. 

This is not to say that Jesus did not recognize the faith of others outside the covenant - you cited examples of some of those. Yet, recognizing faith and, at this time, equating that to covenant is a misunderstanding of scripture. 

I did not discuss covenant.  I simply called attention to instances in which Jesus was non-traditional in his concept of Judaism, and in which he emphasized righteousness.

Quote

Today, we like to think of the world in terms of racism almost exclusively....well, that and genderism, feminism, and every little -ism that comes to the minds of social activists.  Society has become brainwashed with this single lens to view the world. 

Did Jesus come to the House of Israel? Yes, emphatically yes and exclusively yes. He had a sole focus on how to bring them to an understanding that the Messiah had come. Later he assigned the task of teaching the world to his disciples.

The scripture cited in the opening statement of this thread is one of the harshest spoken by Jesus. He compares those individuals outside of the covenant to dogs. When I read this I try to understand what he is saying. His purpose was the House of Israel and calling labeling others as dogs has more to do with his wholehearted commitment to the Jews than a condemnation or denigration of others. An example comes to mind, an Olympic athlete is in training. For him, his training is everything - how he exercises and how/what he eats is everything. In talking with him, he says, "I would not eat that poison you are eating." Is he saying that the food is poison? Yes, literally, but really he is speaking from a commitment to winning an Olympic medal. For him, everything outside of his focused objective is anathema. I think this is the context of what Jesus is saying. 

The attempt to introduce discrimination, racism into the issue is presentism. 

Jesus' reference to dogs is shorthand for the old saying, 

Quote

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast

ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them

under their feet, and turn again and rend you."  Matt 7:6, Gospel of Thomas 93, 2 Peter 2:22

It is not to be taken literally.  It is a metaphor.

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Robert F. Smith

[Storm Rider]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I did not discuss covenant.  I simply called attention to instances in which Jesus was non-traditional in his concept of Judaism, and in which he emphasized righteousness.

Jesus' reference to dogs is shorthand for the old saying, 

 

It is not to be taken literally.  It is a metaphor.

 

I was aware that we both understood it to be a metaphor and I know that we both understand what is the House of Israel. 

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, blarsen said:

There were many Jews who were converts and not by birth, and Jewishness is not a race.

I think some geneticists would disagree with you about this. There are specific genetic attributes in the Jewish DNA that might  qualify them as being a race.
"Harry Ostrer, a medical geneticist and professor at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, claims that Jews are different, and the differences are not just skin deep. Jews exhibit, he writes, a distinctive genetic signature."   
DNA Links Prove Jews Are a 'Race,' Says Genetics Expert
Of course this would not apply to those who convert to it.

Edited July 24, 2019 by JAHS

[Scott Lloyd]

32 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

“You can feel free to call me an Uncle Tom. It does not affect me. You know why? Because I actually read the book — Uncle Tom was the hero.”

“Interesting theory presented to me at lunch. Do you guys think something bio-chemically happens to women who don’t marry and/or have children? Evidentiary support: @chelseahandler @kathygriffin @SarahKSilverman.“

 

So I was right: You did twist the quotes. 

She was right in pointing out that Uncle Tom was a sympathetic character in the book. And she was right in countering those who resort to trite name calling because she strays outside the group-think. That is actually what makes her so appealing to me. She’s strong and courageous as well as bright. 

As for the other thing, she was obviously joking. And it did make me chuckle when I thought of the likes of Kathy Griffin. 

Guess you’re backing away from the Shapiro-as-conspiracy-theorist trope, huh?

Edited July 24, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So I was right: You did twist the quotes. 

She was right in pointing out that Uncle Tom was a sympathetic character in the book. And in countering those who resort to trite name calling because she strays outside the group-think. That is actually what makes her so appealing to me. She’s strong and courageous as well as bright. 

As for the other thing, she was obviously joking. And it did make me chuckle when I thought of the likes of Kathy Griffin. 

No, no twist. I did not say she claimed it out of the blue. Uncle Tom is a caricature, supposedly based on Christ but with all the strengths removed. While he was the “hero” it was a servile and pathetic hero. He can be sympathetic but only because everything but only because his soul was in essence raped by slavery. He is an object of pity and not heroism.

Of course she was joking. It is just horrific joking. You may want to self-examine and figure out why you find petty misogyny so funny. Or does it only amuse when aimed at people you disagree with? Do you also chuckle at Trump’s endless petty insults? Is that his appeal because I do not get it.

Edited July 24, 2019 by The Nehor

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, no twist. I did not say she claimed it out of the blue. Uncle Tom is a caricature, supposedly based on Christ but with all the strengths removed. While he was the “hero” it was a servile and pathetic hero.

Of course she was joking. It is just horrific joking. You may want to self-examine and figure out why you find misogyny so funny. Or does it only amuse when aimed at people you disagree with? Do you also chuckle at Trump’s endless petty insults?

With all the vile things that Griffin has said/done, I do have a hard time mustering sympathy for her. 

And whatever your view of the Uncle Tom character, Owens’s comeback to the name-callers was an apt one. I say, “Well done.”

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

With all the vile things that Griffin has said/done, I do have a hard time mustering sympathy for her. 

And whatever your view of the Uncle Tom character, Owens’s comeback to the name-callers was an apt one. I say, “Well done.”

I don’t like Griffin either but you can say something is vile without having sympathy for the person it was aimed at. I found her severed head gag disgusting even though I despise Trump. There is no license I am aware of that an abhorrent act becomes good because it is aimed at someone you find abhorrent. This justification is why our politics are so toxic. 

No, her response was deliberately designed to offend a large group of people and suck up to people like you. She demeaned herself with it.

Edited July 24, 2019 by The Nehor

[blarsen]

58 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Except that Mormon and Moroni were big on it too. Not to the same extent Nephi was but definitely there and they were writing for us. There is even a plea to the Lamanites directly telling them they are of Israel. And even if it is something of an anachronism there are over 50 references to Israel in the D&C. God still finds it important.

Still pretty sure I am missing something.

Maybe the 'something' pertains to the future.  For me, the emphasis just falls back on the Abrahamic covenant and the promises made therein. Not too complicated.

[Scott Lloyd]

23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t like Griffin either but you can say something is vile without having sympathy for the person it was aimed at. I found her severed head gag disgusting even though I despise Trump. There is no license I am aware of that an abhorrent act becomes good because it is aimed at someone you find abhorrent. This justification is why our politics are so toxic. 

No, her response was deliberately designed to offend a large group of people and suck up to people like you. She demeaned herself with it.

With slight alterations, the above could be applied to pretty much every manifestation of Trump Derangement Syndrome I’ve heard and seen over the past 2 1/2 years. 

And you’re quite the moralizer. It’s a side of you I have scarcely seen. I feel like there should be church organ music playing in the background. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[USU78]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

No one said that.

I hope this is just blind ignorance.

Racism is real. Parents have to teach their children how to cope with it and survive it. Black kids and adults are harassed more. There is an assumption of guilt or suspicion. A friend of mine, a little older then me, who is black and has a wealthy father would make business trips in his late teens and early twenties around the south (he lived in Florida) driving the company car (expensive luxury car). He was pulled over at least once every trip (he was not speeding) and more often multiple times by cops who harassed him and would always check to see if the car was stolen and he would often get grilled and asked leading questions suggesting the car was stolen and they would always ask for permission to search it. He is a tough guy but it is humiliating to be in that position of disadvantage. I know criminal lawyers and they will outright tell you being black or Hispanic means harsher sentencing from a judge. A white friend of mine got busted for fraud at 15. His lawyer outright told him he was lucky he was white and clean-cut and that he would probably get off with just some community service.

Racism is real. It is not dead. It is not something made up for political gain or to make you feel guilty. It stands for real pain and real suffering and real disadvantages. I encourage you to read real accounts of what it puts people through. We are nowhere near equality and people pretending we are is part of the problem.

Call it what you wish. For twenty odd years I fought HUD and the state antidiscrimination unit, their redistributionist aims, and their cynical attacks on smallholders in Utah.

The kneejerk pretext was always race. Their setup artistry evil.

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

With slight alterations, the above could be applied to pretty much every manifestation of Trump Derangement Syndrome I’ve heard and seen over the past 2 1/2 years. 

And almost everything Trump has said. Which is why I want to scream at everyone to tell them to stop listening to the empty headed goons spouting this rubbish and being manipulated into anger by this pablum.

I actually read the Mueller report. Opposing Trump is not a sign of mental illness. I am not optimistic the country as a whole will ever know what was in that report. They prefer anger stoking propaganda.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Call it what you wish. For twenty odd years I fought HUD and the state antidiscrimination unit, their redistributionist aims, and their cynical attacks on smallholders in Utah.

The kneejerk pretext was always race. Their setup artistry evil.

Which again has little to do with whether actual authentic racism exists. You are doing what you are claiming “they” are doing. Claiming victimhood.

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And almost everything Trump has said. Which is why I want to scream at everyone to tell them to stop listening to the empty headed goons spouting this rubbish and being manipulated into anger by this pablum.

I actually read the Mueller report. Opposing Trump is not a sign of mental illness. I am not optimistic the country as a whole will ever know what was in that report. They prefer anger stoking propaganda.

QED. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Jesus' reference to dogs is shorthand for the old saying, 

 

It is not to be taken literally.  It is a metaphor.

Last I checked a metaphor compared two things and their similarities.

What is being compared to a dog in Jesus' metaphor?  And what attributes are they supposed to share?

Edited July 24, 2019 by JLHPROF

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

I was aware that we both understood it to be a metaphor and I know that we both understand what is the House of Israel. 

I tend to put Jesus in the tradition of Beth Hillel -- the more reasonable and unconventional of the pair of rabbis, Hillel & Shammai.  Rab Hillel was an older contemporary of Jesus.  I also see Jesus as a Galilean Wunderrebbe like Honi the Circle-Maker, also a likely older contemporary.  It is very difficult to pigeon-hole a man like Jesus, and I don't think that the late Gospels even begin to do him justice.  He seems to be the master of the unexpected.

Whatever we make of the House of Israel must be seen in that larger context.

[The Nehor]

25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

QED. 

Nope. I encourage you to read the full report if you have not though before concluding I am deranged to come to that conclusion. That is, unless you define disliking someone (no matter the merits of that judgement), as derangement. If that is the case though you are at least as deranged as me if not more so.

Edited July 24, 2019 by The Nehor

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Nope. I encourage you to read the full report if you have not though before concluding I am deranged to come to that conclusion. That is, unless you define disliking someone (no matter the merits of that judgement), as derangement. If that is the case though you are at least as deranged as me if not more so.

You mean the report that concluded after two years of incessant witch hunting by politicians and unprofessionally biased press that there was no collusion after all between anyone in the Russian government and anyone in the Trump campaign. Yeah, that was quite entertaining. Best thing since Al Capone’s vault. 

I downloaded the report weeks ago and am reading it at my leisure. It’s a dry and ponderous slog. I’ll make it through sometime, but I don’t expect to find anything too startling. If there were, CNN would have highlighted it by now.