Pope Francis accused of Heresy.

[The Nehor]

[MiserereNobis]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Oh yeah, I know. I just figured this might lead to the rise of one, not that Francis will becomes one.

That would make it interesting times, medieval style.

[poptart]

[strappinglad]

I am overwhelmed. I just searched youtube for " protestant heretic " and my what a pile of vitriol comes up . I thought the war between protestants and catholics was well on the back burner. Boy was I wrong. Also the war between different factions of protestants as well as the war between different faction of catholics. is still pretty hot. And I figured Mormonstories was off-putting at times. The woods are certainly full of the ' wild weeds ' !

[6EQUJ5]

It is threads like this which make me so thankful for a living prophet to guide and lead the Church.  There is no question who is at the helm.

[poptart]

9 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I am overwhelmed. I just searched youtube for " protestant heretic " and my what a pile of vitriol comes up . I thought the war between protestants and catholics was well on the back burner. Boy was I wrong. Also the war between different factions of protestants as well as the war between different faction of catholics. is still pretty hot. And I figured Mormonstories was off-putting at times. The woods are certainly full of the ' wild weeds ' !

Thing is, the USA has had it made for a while now and people know it.  While Europe had been tearing themselves apart for centuries, we were able to skirt a lot of that.  Thing is, like Europe we've tapped out what resources and affordable land we have.  We're turning on and marganalizing each other at an ever faster rate.  While I do not believe the LDS church is the true church (Or any religion for that matter.....), big reason why i've softened up on the LDS so much is while the rest of Christendom spent decades here destroying each other, you guys slowly built your wealth while hanging onto your conservative values.  Also, I'm quite sure your leadership has watched the other major players here stateside, especially within the past decade return to ugly good old boy politics and just cringe.  Even their own flock is little better.  Just my own experience, your average Catholic/Protestant Parish may have other bodies but they're nothing like their grandparents used to be.  I see it in other organizations, parents dumping their kids off on other people, expecting them to do their job.  With #metoo and all the other stuff going on nowadays, people, especially men are paranoid about volunteering around children.  Needless to say, this causes even more griping yet no one wanting to pass laws that protect people from false rape/sexual misconduct charges.  Even you guys have to have another adult in the room when interviewing children, sad. 

That being said, the work the priesthood and relief society puts into their ward is astounding.  That was one thing that stuck out, reminded me of the stories of how church used to be on my grandparents side.  Moms old church in Oahu is still like that, thing is with them it's a local church so there's still that spirit of Aloha (sorta....). 

Going to be real interesting to see how they sort this mess out.  Have to admit, a bit disgusted at the lot of them, they had so much just handed to them and they've acted like red-headed step children for decades now.  I have no sympathy for them if they chose to resort to the same violence that Europe has had to deal with in the past, if they're that stupid they deserve the outcome.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

 

[poptart]

9 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

It is threads like this which make me so thankful for a living prophet to guide and lead the Church.  There is no question who is at the helm.

Know you mean well, hope you guys never develop the hubris that the rest of Christiandom here has, it's starting to look like this may be their downfall.

[Kenngo1969]

13 hours ago, poptart said:

No Bob Marley, no dice.  That simple...

 

[rockpond]

17 hours ago, poptart said:

This could get interesting....

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/pope-francis-accused-of-heresy-by-clergy-and-theologians

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/prominent-clergy-scholars-accuse-pope-francis-of-heresy-in-open-letter

 

The letter.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5983408-Open-Letter-to-the-Bishops-of-the-Catholic.html

That's interesting.  And sad for the Catholic Church to be dealing with this.

The letter appears to be mostly from academics and writers... Are there any thoughts on how much weight this will carry with the Bishops or with Catholics themselves?

The contrast with Mormonism is interesting as it seems that our general reaction to the prophet teaching something that differs from past teachings is to consider it new revelation.  Or, at the very least - inspired teaching.  And we strive to make it fit with what has already been taught or we tend to dismiss older teachings.

[SouthernMo]

10 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

It is threads like this which make me so thankful for a living prophet to guide and lead the Church.  There is no question who is at the helm.

Who leads the LDS church?

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Who leads the LDS church?

The Messiah.

[poptart]

29 minutes ago, rockpond said:

That's interesting.  And sad for the Catholic Church to be dealing with this.

The letter appears to be mostly from academics and writers... Are there any thoughts on how much weight this will carry with the Bishops or with Catholics themselves?

The contrast with Mormonism is interesting as it seems that our general reaction to the prophet teaching something that differs from past teachings is to consider it new revelation.  Or, at the very least - inspired teaching.  And we strive to make it fit with what has already been taught or we tend to dismiss older teachings.

You're also a young institution, the Catholic Church has been around a lot longer and has done nastier things as well as good.  Let's give you guys 2000 years and see were you're at. Also, from my experience, many of the LDS I knew willingly put aside history, facts and science for faith, from their perspective I can see why ( I think..).  When your family, friends and possibly career is tied up in a religion, it's amazing what you will say you believe to be true.  Seen it with Catholics as well, knew one parish that had more than a few LGBT people working as admin.  Also, when you consider organizations like the LDS are one of the few that actually help their own, well yeah big suprise people are going to go along with it.  If I actually had some support when I was trying to stay off the street I probably would have been a lot more open to religion.  It's hard to take someone who's never experienced a fraction of the hardships I have seriously, even more so when they say things like Jesus suffered yet they're comfortable in some suburb with family that's never done things like try to murder one of your own.  Sadly, I did see people in WA who converted solely for this reason, saw it at DI quite a bit.  They'd convert then right off the bat want to get on church welfare and anything else they could get their hands on.  Bottom line, good chunk of the churches out there either don't have the funds anymore or have people who are not as willing to share as those who came before them, is what it is.

Edited May 1, 2019 by poptart

[6EQUJ5]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

Who leads the LDS church?

The LORD.

[SouthernMo]

7 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

The LORD.

Can He lead other leaders of other churches that are not LDS?

[The Nehor]

32 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Can He lead other leaders of other churches that are not LDS?

Of course He can assuming they will let him but they are limited by their lack of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, Priesthood Authority, and accepting false doctrine to a greater or lesser extent.

[SouthernMo]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Of course He can assuming they will let him but they are limited by their lack of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, Priesthood Authority, and accepting false doctrine to a greater or lesser extent.

Interesting.

Is there any false doctrine in the LDS church?

[Kenngo1969]

12 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

It is threads like this which make me so thankful for a living prophet to guide and lead the Church.  There is no question who is at the helm.

Why do I suspect that was delivered tongue-in-cheek (though, if I'm wrong, this is a pretty tough medium to detect tone)?

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Interesting.

Is there any false doctrine in the LDS church?

Depends on what you mean?

In the membership in general? Yes, tons of it!

In the leadership? Some, but not as much.

In the scriptures? Very little.

All of these are being reduced as promised:

“How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.”

[6EQUJ5]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

Can He lead other leaders of other churches that are not LDS?

Of course.  The Light of Christ is seen everywhere and possessed by everyone. IMO, many religious believers -- and non believers -- demonstrate this daily.

[6EQUJ5]

25 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Why do I suspect that was delivered tongue-in-cheek (though, if I'm wrong, this is a pretty tough medium to detect tone)?

Not at all. God is at the head.  Always.

I may disagree with Church leaders on occasion, but this has nothing to do with the Gospel.

[Kenngo1969]

30 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Not at all. God is at the head.  Always.

I may disagree with Church leaders on occasion, but this has nothing to do with the Gospel.

You know what?  I was out-of-line.  It's not my place to critique your standing in the Church of Jesus Christ and/or before God.  Those things are between you and Him alone, and no one else.  Apologies.

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Depends on what you mean?

In the membership in general? Yes, tons of it!

In the leadership? Some, but not as much.

In the scriptures? Very little.

All of these are being reduced as promised:

“How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.”

The only thing I would add is that in Saturday’s Warrior there is absolutely no false doctrine. It is (in my opinion) the only bastion of pure truth left in the world.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, SouthernMo said:

The only thing I would add is that in Saturday’s Warrior there is absolutely no false doctrine. It is (in my opinion) the only bastion of pure truth left in the world.

Agreed, she will always dump you when you are on your mission.

[6EQUJ5]

13 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

You know what?  I was out-of-line.  It's not my place to critique your standing in the Church of Jesus Christ and/or before God.  Those things are between you and Him alone, and no one else.  Apologies.

Appreciate the thoughtfulness but no worries whatsoever. I don't mind some good-hearted and well-intentioned ribbing.  I'm opinionated with the subtlety of a Hurdy Gurdy.  Were people on this board NOT to question the eternal status of my soul, I would be concerned. 

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, poptart said:

... from my experience, many of the LDS I knew willingly put aside history, facts and science for faith, from their perspective I can see why ( I think..).  When your family, friends and possibly career is tied up in a religion, it's amazing what you will say you believe to be true.  ...

Are there people who "convert" for cynical, selfish, or shallow reasons?  Sadly, yes.  The Parable of the Sower tells us that.  But while everything I can discern about a particular situation might convince me that someone belongs in that category, I cannot see another person's heart: God can (see I Sam. 16:7).  I may be absolutely convinced that I have all of the facts necessary to judge another person righteously, yet I may also be completely wrong.  (In any event, thankfully, I am not in a position which obliges me to judge another person on behalf of the Church of Jesus Christ.)  His standing before God is between God and him, and no one else.

And as far as laying aside history, science, and "facts" for the sake of holding onto faith, I'm not convinced that that situation is as black-and-white as you make it out to be here, either.  I believe that is so for several reasons. 

First of all, none of us sees history, science, or even "facts" as they are.  We see them as we (the viewers) are.  Often, that's true especially with regard to history.  As noble a dream as objectivity might be, it's impossible for humans to be completely objective, and many of us, no matter how much we might try to avoid doing so, cannot help but view the past through something of a presentist lens (however small that lens may be).  It seems to be the perfect illustration of what the Apostle Paul called "seeing through a glass, darkly" (I Corinthians 13:12).

Secondly, even "facts" carefully weighed seldom compel one to reach one conclusion or another.  Theoretically, it's possible to present the exact same case to two different juries, who might reach diametrically opposing conclusions regarding that evidence.  When it comes to matters of faith, each of us is our own trier of fact.  Each of us determines for himself what evidence he will admit, what evidence he will exclude, how much weight to give to any particular piece of evidence, and so on.  Were it otherwise, free will would play less of a role in the unfolding human drama than it does (see 2 Nephi 2:27, Doctrine and Covenants 58:26-28).  And I get to choose the paradigm I use in any given situation: I am free to employ a scientifically sound paradigm while weighing scientific "facts," while, alternately, choosing to use an entirely different (but no less valid or valuable, since, largely, such determinations are a matter of perspective) paradigm for considering matters of faith.

Third, do some people retain their membership and/or remain active in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for the sake of career, family and other relationships, and for similar reasons?  Even, perhaps, for the sake of simple appearances?  Yes.  But because the line between clergy and laity in the Church of Jesus Christ not only is blurred, it is nonexistent, that's much more difficult to do in this Church than it is in many others.  Is simply "faking it" impossible?  No, but it's much harder to do that in the Church of Jesus Christ, in which, routinely, people are asked to put their money, time, and other resources where their mouths are: There's much more "skin in the game" for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints than there is for someone whose commitment, largely, entails parking his butt in a pew for an hour a week.  It's much easier to "fake it" in the second of those situations than it is in the first.

Fourth, while there may be people who "convert" purely for material reasons, someone should tell them that the bishop of the geographical area in which they reside is responsible for the temporal welfare of everyone within the boundaries of his ward: while, perhaps, the needs of ward members dictate priority in receiving needed help, an elaborate ruse of feigning faith in (and conversion to) the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is unnecessary.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Kenngo1969