Stay or Go?

[changed]

23 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

My experience has been completely different to what you describe. We can get to know the Father and the Son in this life ... and very often they are radically different to who we would have Them to be -- a phenomenon that seems to have characterised many people's interactions with the Lord during His mortality as well.

The imperfect nature of our surroundings and trials force us to rationalize a God that allows suffering - which is radically different from the protective, sheltering, unconditionally loving God we would create for ourselves if we were able to fully control our environment.  We resonate with the timeless nature of human instincts and thought processes exhibited 2000 years ago as well as today.

We see through a glass darkly in this life.  Acceptance of uncertainty and awareness of our own limited perspectives removes our own cognitive dissonance and slightly clears a little of the lens of our perception.  

[changed]

22 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Why arent you acquainted with Jesus? How can we obtain eternal life without being acquainted with Him?

I read scriptures, I study and pray, I have met with many diverse groups who all study the life of Jesus - I experimented on the word, given up a career, tried following the commandments - still do not drink alcohol, do not swear, do my best to live a morally pure and honest life - I volunteer, actually run a food distribution service for those in need in my area.  I will not be so pompous as to claim I know Jesus though - "acquainted" is perhaps a good word to use.  I do not expect to really know anything until I am beyond the veil yet... a lot of wishful thinking, a lot of hope - that is what it will be for this life I 'm afraid.  

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I don't disagree with that, but leaving community (organized religion) would seem to deprive you of the opportunity for the best balance.

I have not left my community (mixed-faith family here).  I do not wear garments, do not hold a calling, but I do attend (and try not to cause too much trouble)

Edited April 24, 2019 by changed

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, changed said:

have not left my community (mixed-faith family here

I wasn’t expecting implying anything about you. Just responding to this comment:  

“wish there was more room for people to allow themselves to leave organized religion without also leaving their belief in God”

[changed]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

I wasn’t expecting implying anything about you. Just responding to this comment:  

“wish there was more room for people to allow themselves to leave organized religion without also leaving their belief in God”

I should add... I attend church on Sunday afternoon after having coffee with my "other" friends Sunday morning...   I might be the only one who is not atheist in my morning group.  I have a diverse set of friends  that is a balanced approach right, breakfast with atheists, followed by sacrament with theists?  Have to spend time with multiple viewpoints, get a balanced fair perspective? fair balanced half-in Mormon?  

There are many communities - our family community, our work community, our hobbyist communities, rotary clubs, civic engagement, Ham radio club etc. etc.  all of which can be enjoyed without being 100% in agreement with everyone in the group.  

I wish there were more room for cafeteria Mormons within the church - more room for freedom of thought, for disagreements, for concerns as well as compliments - more room for self-reliance, independence, diversity etc.

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by changed

[Wade Englund]

1 hour ago, changed said:

I wish there were more room for cafeteria Mormons within the church - more room for freedom of thought, for disagreements, for concerns as well as compliments - more room for self-reliance, independence, diversity etc.

Sounds nice.

It is just that, rationally,  various organizations tend to be structured in ways that best meets their respective objectives.  A coffee shop and a  math course have different worthy goals, and so the atmosphere and  structure of each will reasonably be different.  Freedom of thought, independence, and diversity is a positive with the one, but a negative with the other.  

As nice as it sounds, your expressed wish fits the goal or mission of social media and discussion boards, but not the mission of the Church. 

The good news is, we get to decided what goals we personally wish to achieve, and to seek after the  organizations that best match those goals.. This works far better than wishing or attempting to conform certain organization to fit our personal goals.

But, since this is a discussion board, you are free and welcome to disagree.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

[changed]

6 hours ago, Wade Englund said:

Sounds nice.

It is just that, rationally,  various organizations tend to be structured in ways that best meets their respective objectives.  A coffee shop and a  math course have different worthy goals, and so the atmosphere and  structure of each will reasonably be different.  Freedom of thought, independence, and diversity is a positive with the one, but a negative with the other.  

As nice as it sounds, your expressed wish fits the goal or mission of social media and discussion boards, but not the mission of the Church. 

The good news is, we get to decided what goals we personally wish to achieve, and to seek after the  organizations that best match those goals.. This works far better than wishing or attempting to conform certain organization to fit our personal goals.

But, since this is a discussion board, you are free and welcome to disagree.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

  Consider the rigid organized structure of the Pharisees and Sadducee, vs. the ... rather unorganized diverse group Jesus hung around with.  He ate with publicans and sinners, went outside his group - embraced diversity.  There was John the Baptist running around eating bugs - no church building, just running around outside.  Jesus enjoyed the outdoors too - no church building, he prayed on hilltops, the sermon on the mountain etc.  

It was "organized" religious people who killed Jesus for his unorganized free-thinking different way of doing things...

 

 

 

[changed]

I suppose this is as appropriate a place as any - here is the letter I just submitted for the upcoming conference:

https://byu.az1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_bK0fIKfb6i22X09 

Dearest Sr. Bingham, Sr. Cordon, and Sr. Jones,

     I first wanted to extend my deep appreciation for the women's organizations - for Relief Society, Young Women’s, and Primary.  These three organizations have been life-saving for me and my two daughters through these last two painful years. 

     While studying the Come Follow Me curriculum in the New Testament, I have been contemplating the role of apostles – both the original apostles of our beloved Savior, and our modern-day apostles.  I understand both the original and current apostles are not infallible.  What suggestions do you have for women in the church who hesitate to fully follow imperfect priesthood leaders? 

     The father in Matthew 17 and Mark 9 came directly to the Savior when the disciplines were unable to heal his Son.  I have felt like this father and have also tried to go directly to the Savior.  There are some mistakes which are not intentional, and others such as the heart-wrenching account of the apostle Judas’ betrayal of the Savior which cause much deeper concern. 

     Betrayal by someone called to authority has been my family’s trial through the last two years.  One of my children was abused by the first councilor in a neighboring bishopric.  This high priest in now in jail for the rest of their life – without parole. He abused many children, was producing child pornography for years and years through many leadership callings in the church.  Support groups with others in similar situations have led me to understand this is not an uncommon experience.  Victims had to form their own support group outside of the church – we have all had to go directly to the Savior because the disciples in our area were unable to heal us.  “In coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost."  It feels like the new direction of the church includes an emphasis spiritual self-reliance within individuals and families.  I did not realize how dependent I was on priesthood guidance until trust in the priesthood was violently taken away from me.  I am now having a hard time holding onto my personal testimony in anything.

     The scriptures have not brought me comfort – As I read I am now seeing things I did not see before.  The apostles pushed children away from Christ (forbid them not…).  The original apostles could not stay awake even one hour.  Peter denied Christ, Thomas doubted.  I ask myself, do these accounts of the frailty of the apostles apply to us today?  I used to look up to the apostles of old, and the current apostles, but am now having a much harder time seeing these men as reliable sources of truth and guidance.  I very much appreciate and see the many “John the beloveds” in the church, but what is the lesson of Judas?  Painful experience has caused me to shrink away from the men in the church.  I went to my bishop, and he could not help – he told me he was not trained and had no experience for our situation.  I wanted so desperately for someone, anyone, to help take away the pain and found myself alone. 

    What balance have you found between being directed by those called by God, vs. taking ownership of your own individual testimony and path?  How do you define spiritual self-reliance for women - no borrowed light – no relying on flesh, not relying on the arms of the priesthood -  when so many necessary ordinances and keys require the patriarchal structure of the church?

     I turned in my temple recommend because I do not understand what it means to support those like Judas in their callings.  I think the new endowment does not require women to covenant to their husbands, but allows women to go directly to God?  My husband is also a pornography addict - so anything around the priesthood is doubly painful to me.  I have not attended the temple since the changes, but even with the changes I already took out my endowments, so it feels like the new covenants do not apply to me anyways.  In the past I raised my hand and supported my child’s abuser in their leadership calling. I cannot sleep and have anxiety attacks in church because of my experiences with the priesthood.  I now know God calls people like Judas to leadership positions.  I do not know how to balance that, or what to do with that. 

     Thank you for taking the time to accept questions.  I have a hard time trusting the priesthood, so am now looking for answers and guidance from other women. I am Sam Young’s story #823.  Sam helped me before he was ex-communicated. 

     Please pardon my clumsy writing – I have re-written this several times to be more coherent.  I have little hope that this will actually be read, little people like me don't amount to much, and I know many abuse victims are so filled with anger and pain – it is hard to effectively communicate.  Like an animal that has been abused and snaps at any hand that tries to help – but now I have sometimes become the one who snaps and bites.  I know this pain now, this darkness – and so very much need help, and want help for others.  I am not alone.  I am now working full time as a community college professor.  Almost 25 percent of my female students have been abused.  We go through "Safe Colleges" professional development training each year because of it.  I believe this is no longer just an issue for those outside of the church, but within it.  I would not be writing or sharing this experience if I did not believe it did not warrant being addressed - addressed within the Relief Society, within Young Women's, and sadly, within the Primary. 

Your tearful broken-hearted sister,

*****

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by changed

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 hours ago, changed said:

The imperfect nature of our surroundings and trials force us to rationalize a God that allows suffering - which is radically different from the protective, sheltering, unconditionally loving God we would create for ourselves if we were able to fully control our environment.

Personal experience long ago taught me that a God that didn't allow suffering would be a monster. You can create One for yourself if you really want.

[changed]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Personal experience long ago taught me that a God that didn't allow suffering would be a monster. You can create One for yourself if you really want.

 

It's only possible to fully convince ourselves of theories that are able to logically co-exist with the tangible reality we have experienced.  

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, changed said:

I suppose this is as appropriate a place as any - here is the letter I just submitted for the upcoming conference:

https://byu.az1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_bK0fIKfb6i22X09 

Dearest Sr. Bingham, Sr. Cordon, and Sr. Jones,

     I first wanted to extend my deep appreciation for the women's organizations - for Relief Society, Young Women’s, and Primary.  These three organizations have been life-saving for me and my two daughters through these last two painful years. 

     While studying the Come Follow Me curriculum in the New Testament, I have been contemplating the role of apostles – both the original apostles of our beloved Savior, and our modern-day apostles.  I understand both the original and current apostles are not infallible.  What suggestions do you have for women in the church who hesitate to fully follow imperfect priesthood leaders? 

     The father in Matthew 17 and Mark 9 came directly to the Savior when the disciplines were unable to heal his Son.  I have felt like this father and have also tried to go directly to the Savior.  There are some mistakes which are not intentional, and others such as the heart-wrenching account of the apostle Judas’ betrayal of the Savior which cause much deeper concern. 

     Betrayal by someone called to authority has been my family’s trial through the last two years.  One of my children was abused by the first councilor in a neighboring bishopric.  This high priest in now in jail for the rest of their life – without parole. He abused many children, was producing child pornography for years and years through many leadership callings in the church.  Support groups with others in similar situations have led me to understand this is not an uncommon experience.  Victims had to form their own support group outside of the church – we have all had to go directly to the Savior because the disciples in our area were unable to heal us.  “In coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost."  It feels like the new direction of the church includes an emphasis spiritual self-reliance within individuals and families.  I did not realize how dependent I was on priesthood guidance until trust in the priesthood was violently taken away from me.  I am now having a hard time holding onto my personal testimony in anything.

     The scriptures have not brought me comfort – As I read I am now seeing things I did not see before.  The apostles pushed children away from Christ (forbid them not…).  The original apostles could not stay awake even one hour.  Peter denied Christ, Thomas doubted.  I ask myself, do these accounts of the frailty of the apostles apply to us today?  I used to look up to the apostles of old, and the current apostles, but am now having a much harder time seeing these men as reliable sources of truth and guidance.  I very much appreciate and see the many “John the beloveds” in the church, but what is the lesson of Judas?  Painful experience has caused me to shrink away from the men in the church.  I went to my bishop, and he could not help – he told me he was not trained and had no experience for our situation.  I wanted so desperately for someone, anyone, to help take away the pain and found myself alone. 

    What balance have you found between being directed by those called by God, vs. taking ownership of your own individual testimony and path?  How do you define spiritual self-reliance for women - no borrowed light – no relying on flesh, not relying on the arms of the priesthood -  when so many necessary ordinances and keys require the patriarchal structure of the church?

     I turned in my temple recommend because I do not understand what it means to support those like Judas in their callings.  I think the new endowment does not require women to covenant to their husbands, but allows women to go directly to God?  My husband is also a pornography addict - so anything around the priesthood is doubly painful to me.  I have not attended the temple since the changes, but even with the changes I already took out my endowments, so it feels like the new covenants do not apply to me anyways.  In the past I raised my hand and supported my child’s abuser in their leadership calling. I cannot sleep and have anxiety attacks in church because of my experiences with the priesthood.  I now know God calls people like Judas to leadership positions.  I do not know how to balance that, or what to do with that. 

     Thank you for taking the time to accept questions.  I have a hard time trusting the priesthood, so am now looking for answers and guidance from other women. I am Sam Young’s story #823.  Sam helped me before he was ex-communicated. 

     Please pardon my clumsy writing – I have re-written this several times to be more coherent.  I have little hope that this will actually be read, little people like me don't amount to much, and I know many abuse victims are so filled with anger and pain – it is hard to effectively communicate.  Like an animal that has been abused and snaps at any hand that tries to help – but now I have sometimes become the one who snaps and bites.  I know this pain now, this darkness – and so very much need help, and want help for others.  I am not alone.  I am now working full time as a community college professor.  Almost 25 percent of my female students have been abused.  We go through "Safe Colleges" professional development training each year because of it.  I believe this is no longer just an issue for those outside of the church, but within it.  I would not be writing or sharing this experience if I did not believe it did not warrant being addressed - addressed within the Relief Society, within Young Women's, and sadly, within the Primary. 

Your tearful broken-hearted sister,

*****

 

For a long time I held bishops and their counselors up there on a pedestal or maybe that's going too far, but I thought that they would have been vetted by a God out there through the leaders that supposedly hold the power from God. But since then it's dwindled with seeing two wards with leaders who've been unfaithful to wives in two bishoprics, both counselors. I've known some wonderful conselors since though. But your story although shocking, definitely happens. https://kutv.com/news/local/man-arrested-in-utah-undercover-human-trafficking-investigation-is-an-lds-bishop

Also, I like your letter.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Tacenda

[Wade Englund]

4 hours ago, changed said:

  Consider the rigid organized structure of the Pharisees and Sadducee, vs. the ... rather unorganized diverse group Jesus hung around with.  He ate with publicans and sinners, went outside his group - embraced diversity.  There was John the Baptist running around eating bugs - no church building, just running around outside.  Jesus enjoyed the outdoors too - no church building, he prayed on hilltops, the sermon on the mountain etc.  

It was "organized" religious people who killed Jesus for his unorganized free-thinking different way of doing things...

To me, in terms of the Scribes and Pharisees, the flaw wasn't in the organized structure of the  of their belief system, but the poor character of their leadership and followers.

And, while the disciples seemed comparatively less organized, as most any new organization would, it was rapidly developing in organization with the calling of the 12, and later the 70 (evangelists), pastors (bishops), teachers, etc.

Let's also not forget that Jesus frequently preached in the synagogues and at the temple, and met often in homes, and this even though the synagogues and temple were the domain of the Jews. 

The restored church also started out meeting in homes and outdoors, but began building chapels and temples for good reason.

It was a relatively disorganized mob who killed Joseph and Hyrum.

That having been said, all of this misses my point about the structure of the organization being suited to the goal of the organization. The exaltation  of mankind, by its very nature, necessitates a Plan, Leadership, and Priesthood,  and is best facilitated on earth by authorized scriptures, temples , meeting houses,  media, etc.

Little of that is needed with social media and discussion boards like where we are at.

The bottom line is, regardless of our personal preferences (I tend to prefer free wheeling and open organizations), the way in which the Church is structured is not my choice or my concern. It is the choice of him who heads it and after whom the Church is named. He , and not me, gets to decide what he deems best in shepherding his flock. And, if what he has decided doesn't suit my goals and style, I have the option of starting my own organization, where I get to freely do as I wish. 

However, I am fine with trustingly conforming my preferences to the will of him who is far greater than me . But, to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Wade Englund]

2 hours ago, changed said:

 

It's only possible to fully convince ourselves of theories that are able to logically co-exist with the tangible reality we have experienced.  

Given how little we have known and understood about the "tangible reality," only unwarranted pride and arrogance would close minds to ideas and theories that don't exactly conform to our current perceptions of "tangible reality." Such is detrimental to disrupting innovations and human progress within the "tangible reality," let alone deleterious to the developmental efficacy, riches, and blessings, of the seemingly "intangible reality."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Kevin Christensen]

7 hours ago, changed said:

I suppose this is as appropriate a place as any - here is the letter I just submitted for the upcoming conference:

https://byu.az1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_bK0fIKfb6i22X09 

Dearest Sr. Bingham, Sr. Cordon, and Sr. Jones,

     I first wanted to extend my deep appreciation for the women's organizations - for Relief Society, Young Women’s, and Primary.  These three organizations have been life-saving for me and my two daughters through these last two painful years. 

     While studying the Come Follow Me curriculum in the New Testament, I have been contemplating the role of apostles – both the original apostles of our beloved Savior, and our modern-day apostles.  I understand both the original and current apostles are not infallible.  What suggestions do you have for women in the church who hesitate to fully follow imperfect priesthood leaders? 

     The father in Matthew 17 and Mark 9 came directly to the Savior when the disciplines were unable to heal his Son.  I have felt like this father and have also tried to go directly to the Savior.  There are some mistakes which are not intentional, and others such as the heart-wrenching account of the apostle Judas’ betrayal of the Savior which cause much deeper concern. 

     Betrayal by someone called to authority has been my family’s trial through the last two years.  One of my children was abused by the first councilor in a neighboring bishopric.  This high priest in now in jail for the rest of their life – without parole. He abused many children, was producing child pornography for years and years through many leadership callings in the church.  Support groups with others in similar situations have led me to understand this is not an uncommon experience.  Victims had to form their own support group outside of the church – we have all had to go directly to the Savior because the disciples in our area were unable to heal us.  “In coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost."  It feels like the new direction of the church includes an emphasis spiritual self-reliance within individuals and families.  I did not realize how dependent I was on priesthood guidance until trust in the priesthood was violently taken away from me.  I am now having a hard time holding onto my personal testimony in anything.

     The scriptures have not brought me comfort – As I read I am now seeing things I did not see before.  The apostles pushed children away from Christ (forbid them not…).  The original apostles could not stay awake even one hour.  Peter denied Christ, Thomas doubted.  I ask myself, do these accounts of the frailty of the apostles apply to us today?  I used to look up to the apostles of old, and the current apostles, but am now having a much harder time seeing these men as reliable sources of truth and guidance.  I very much appreciate and see the many “John the beloveds” in the church, but what is the lesson of Judas?  Painful experience has caused me to shrink away from the men in the church.  I went to my bishop, and he could not help – he told me he was not trained and had no experience for our situation.  I wanted so desperately for someone, anyone, to help take away the pain and found myself alone. 

    What balance have you found between being directed by those called by God, vs. taking ownership of your own individual testimony and path?  How do you define spiritual self-reliance for women - no borrowed light – no relying on flesh, not relying on the arms of the priesthood -  when so many necessary ordinances and keys require the patriarchal structure of the church?

     I turned in my temple recommend because I do not understand what it means to support those like Judas in their callings.  I think the new endowment does not require women to covenant to their husbands, but allows women to go directly to God?  My husband is also a pornography addict - so anything around the priesthood is doubly painful to me.  I have not attended the temple since the changes, but even with the changes I already took out my endowments, so it feels like the new covenants do not apply to me anyways.  In the past I raised my hand and supported my child’s abuser in their leadership calling. I cannot sleep and have anxiety attacks in church because of my experiences with the priesthood.  I now know God calls people like Judas to leadership positions.  I do not know how to balance that, or what to do with that. 

     Thank you for taking the time to accept questions.  I have a hard time trusting the priesthood, so am now looking for answers and guidance from other women. I am Sam Young’s story #823.  Sam helped me before he was ex-communicated. 

     Please pardon my clumsy writing – I have re-written this several times to be more coherent.  I have little hope that this will actually be read, little people like me don't amount to much, and I know many abuse victims are so filled with anger and pain – it is hard to effectively communicate.  Like an animal that has been abused and snaps at any hand that tries to help – but now I have sometimes become the one who snaps and bites.  I know this pain now, this darkness – and so very much need help, and want help for others.  I am not alone.  I am now working full time as a community college professor.  Almost 25 percent of my female students have been abused.  We go through "Safe Colleges" professional development training each year because of it.  I believe this is no longer just an issue for those outside of the church, but within it.  I would not be writing or sharing this experience if I did not believe it did not warrant being addressed - addressed within the Relief Society, within Young Women's, and sadly, within the Primary. 

Your tearful broken-hearted sister,

*****

 

Heartfelt and touching.  One helpful thing about "raising your hand and supporting" a toxic leader is to consider that "sustain" has a range of meanings, including "suffer", and endure,  and "sustaining an injury."

From an essay I wrote some years ago:

Quote

One of the two books that I recommend to everyone I work with in recovery is Your Sexually Addicted Spouse: How Partners Can Cope and Heal, by Barbara Steffans and Marsha Means.  Their book includes a three page table of the “Stages of Healing and supporting Resources and Techniques.”  The third page of the table, toward the bottom, gives the step of “Reframe yourself as a survivor rather than a victim.” [60]   Steffans and Means don’t put this down as a first easy step, but the change comes as an important culmination of other work.  They describe several things that a spouse must do, starting with find support, re-establish safety, build a good support system, create boundaries, practice good self-care mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually, eliminate cognitive distortions, recognize and process your feelings, develop personal empowerment.  This empowerment culminates in reframing one’s self as a survivor rather than a victim.  And from here, and not before, a person is ready to “consider forgiveness.”

This process can have the power to change everything. On the one hand, perpetual victimhood becomes a means to keep everything the same.  As in “Life happened to me, did unchangeable things to me, and as a consequence I can’t be other than I am.”  Survivors, on the other hand, can move beyond the past, and take their experience into a present of their own choice and making.

Another important insight from Barbara Steffens and Marsha Means involves the reaction of a partner to sexual addiction.  Because the first sexual addiction recovery groups modeled themselves on Alcoholics Anonymous, both the groups and the researchers that studied them also adopted the model of codependence/co-addiction for partners developed by Lois Wilson.  However Steffens and Means have argued that in most cases the response of the partner is better understood in terms of trauma, rather than as co-addiction or co-dependence.
 

We believe that the partner’s emotional and behavioral responses to living with a sex addict are better framed and understood as attempts to find safety and security following the most devastating of all traumas: the betrayal of trust.

Rather than believing …partners demonstrate the characteristics of addiction, we believe partners of sexual addicts engage in attempts to seek what they can no longer find: safety in unsafe relationships with sex addicts to whom they feel their deepest attachment bonds. [61]

This is important because healing from trauma calls for different treatment than for codependence.  For example, while Emily is a good candidate for codependence in her marriage to Steven, Carol Lynn’s response to Gerald’s infidelity and Emily’s response to the gay pornography she is exposed to are far better understood as trauma. 

My wife and I have callings in the LDS addiction recovery program, involving training and outreach for bishops and stake leaders.  She has a phone class for women that embraces the notion of recognizing and dealing with trauma.   She would also advocate seeking out a counselor who can offer EMDR therapy, (Eye Movement Directive Retraining) as what her own therapist described as not only the most effective trauma therapy she has used, but really, the only effective therapy.  It helps the brain process traumatic events, so that the memories can be just memories, without the emotional re-experiencing.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[USU78]

6 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Heartfelt and touching.  One helpful thing about "raising your hand and supporting" a toxic leader is to consider that "sustain" has a range of meanings, including "suffer", and endure,  and "sustaining an injury."

From an essay I wrote some years ago:

My wife and I have callings in the LDS addiction recovery program, involving training and outreach for bishops and stake leaders.  She has a phone class for women that embraces the notion of recognizing and dealing with trauma.   She would also advocate seeking out a counselor who can offer EMDR therapy, (Eye Movement Directive Retraining) as what her own therapist described as not only the most effective trauma therapy she has used, but really, the only effective therapy.  It helps the brain process traumatic events, so that the memories can be just memories, without the emotional re-experiencing.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

So ... Emotionally triggering events can effectively be transmuted into interesting memories without power to harm. Wow.

[changed]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

For a long time I held bishops and their counselors up there on a pedestal or maybe that's going too far, but I thought that they would have been vetted by a God out there through the leaders that supposedly hold the power from God. But since then it's dwindled with seeing two wards with leaders who've been unfaithful to wives in two bishoprics, both counselors. I've known some wonderful conselors since though. But your story although shocking, definitely happens. https://kutv.com/news/local/man-arrested-in-utah-undercover-human-trafficking-investigation-is-an-lds-bishop

Also, I like your letter.

Yes, I know several cases of unfaithful bishops - I think it is a natural consequence of PPI's.  Put an hurting sister alone into a room to cry on the shoulder of a bishop whose job is to put their arms around her and let her feel love and.... what do you expect is going to happen?  I have purposefully involved the wives of any priesthood holder that has tried to help me - tell them if I am talking with anyone who is married, it is the equivalent of talking to both people in the marriage, not just one.  I invite wives along on any "minister" outings that are planned, include wives on any emails that are exchanged - include them on everything.

I would not feel comfortable being the wife of someone in most church leadership positions.  

 

48 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Heartfelt and touching.  One helpful thing about "raising your hand and supporting" a toxic leader is to consider that "sustain" has a range of meanings, including "suffer", and endure,  and "sustaining an injury."

From an essay I wrote some years ago:

My wife and I have callings in the LDS addiction recovery program, involving training and outreach for bishops and stake leaders.  She has a phone class for women that embraces the notion of recognizing and dealing with trauma.   She would also advocate seeking out a counselor who can offer EMDR therapy, (Eye Movement Directive Retraining) as what her own therapist described as not only the most effective trauma therapy she has used, but really, the only effective therapy.  It helps the brain process traumatic events, so that the memories can be just memories, without the emotional re-experiencing.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

Thanks for sharing - I will have to google it.  I have not been able to participate in any church sponsored support groups as I now work... more than full time, and juggle kids etc. etc.  There came a time when I kicked my husband out, and was preparing for divorce - preparing for child custody battles.  Fear of losing the kids (he makes more than me, can afford a better layer) is why we are still married.  I think we are doing better now, although I know from my uncle that this sort of thing never goes away (uncle spent time in jail, under house arrest, years and years - he cries, tried to kill himself several times, is very religious - knows the scriptures better than anyone - and yet.... last Christmas he is still pulling me aside telling me dirty jokes, so what do you do?)

You become a survivor when you are no longer surrounded by it... which is rather impossible if it is something within your family.  

My PB says I was "tested when I was young, and will have more tests to come".... not a trial when I was young, a "test" ??!!??... I've had some rather angry sessions with god.... this bs does not refine anyone.

I've failed my tests... had an abortion when I was young... and threw away my TR and faith in god now that I am older.  Peacefully submitting does not turn you into a survivor.  Fighting, yelling... drugs... that is the only way out.

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by changed

[SeekingUnderstanding]

23 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Exactly. People who fret about these things needs to realise that what they're struggling with is an inner fear that they're wrong.

When I was working in Sumatera, I rented a room in the home of a very devout Muslim family. One evening, the husband and I were sitting on the back balcony drinking tea/hot water. 'So', he said, 'you must be a Christian'.

'Yep. And obviously you're a Muslim'.

'Yep. You must think I'm going to hell'.

'Nope. What kind of God would send someone to hell for being sincerely mistaken? I couldn't worship a God like that'.

Long pause, then, 'Well, that makes me feel bad. Because I believe my God will send you to hell for being a Christian'.

One man was bothered. One man wasn't.

I find that most people who leave don’t fret from self doubt, but fret from the emotional strain on believing spouses, parents, siblings and children who are emotionally distraught that their loved one has lost their way. YMMV

[MustardSeed]

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I find that most people who leave don’t fret from self doubt, but fret from the emotional strain on believing spouses, parents, siblings and children who are emotionally distraught that their loved one has lost their way. YMMV

When my son separated from the church he cried in my arms for fear that I would live my life afraid. I reassured him that Im not worried, that I'm confident that everything will work out because he's a good person. It quieted his fears.  When I worry, I keep it to myself.  Or I vent here.  I wouldn't want to burden him with my hang ups.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

When my son separated from the church he cried in my arms for fear that I would live my life afraid. I reassured him that Im not worried, that I'm confident that everything will work out because he's a good person. It quieted his fears.  When I worry, I keep it to myself.  Or I vent here.  I wouldn't want to burden him with my hang ups.

Me too.  Some family traditions I am hoping not to pass on.