Prominent FAIR-Featured LDS SSA Therapist now identifies as gay and dating men

[kllindley]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The gospel is suppose to be "the good news", maybe the church is the gospel to you?

I appreciate that generosity.  ❤️  In the context of my beliefs and this board, I also meant the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  

[Daniel2]

Kllindley,

Thank you for attempting to answer my CFR of your claim that I have "acted aggressively" (and presumably unfairly).

If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that my actions of:

• posting a link to FAIR where David Matheson explains his views on therapy, followed by
• a news source from Truth Wins Out on David Matheson, which includes a direct quote from David Matheson himself showing his own words which verify the news source,
• coupled with my only words I offered that accompanied the news source that "David Matheson was married to a woman,  was my own therapist for several months while I was living on the East Coast in 2004, and is featured in the following FAIR podcast (which is still an active link on the FAIR website),"
• followed by a subsequent post of mine saying,  "I can't get the quote feature to work properly, so here's the update from Truth Wins Out,"

..that I am somehow "glowingly quot[ing the author of the news source] as a hero for finding out about David's personal decisions through private Facebook hero"...?

Kllindley, this seems to clearly have touched a nerve in you.  For my part, all I can say is that my intentions do not reflect the aggression and hostility you seem to be projecting on me.  I have posted before about the compassion I have for families undergoing any divorce for whatever reason, and especially in the instances of mixed-orientation.  I didn't say anything more about Matheson's wife because I have no idea what the circumstances are--the article itself doesn't say anything about whether or not Matheson is divorcing or the state of his relationship with his wife and children.  I'm not even aware if they are divorcing or if their family is facing "destruction" (I AM aware of some mixed-orientation marriages that choose to create their own relationship rules which include allowing a same-sex-attracted spouse to seek out same-sex intimacy; I don't know if that's the case here or not).

Matheson is and has been a very prominent figure in how many LDS men have learned to deal with their sexuality.  If you think he should just be able to quietly slip away and lead a gay life without anyone discussing his private actions, his marriage to a woman, and his feelings that he was 'dying inside,' and all without others discussing it, then yes, you and I disagree.  Matheson is a public figure who made his living off of men like me.  Your experiences may have been different and positive for you.  He may have treated you differently in therapy than he did me and others--------but that does NOT mean that I am misrepresenting MY experiences with him.  Your experiences do NOT negate the veracity of mine.  And again, if you feel that my shedding light on this news and attempting to hold the major and very public professional upon whom I relied to understand myself accountable for his actions, especially when those actions by him have led to destructive and damaging behaviors, then yes... we disagree.  That said, my motives are not hostile but compassionate for people like Matheson, but I believe we can be compassionate and yet still call for accountability, and all without rancor or malice.

D

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I appreciate that generosity.  ❤️  In the context of my beliefs and this board, I also meant the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  

Kllindley, my heart goes out to you.... I hope you know you are a perfect soul and loved by your heavenly father! Just as you are! ETA: I feel like this sounds condescending. I may not even know if He lives, but if He does, I know you're loved. 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Tacenda

[Daniel2]

22 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I intended nothing about your therapy sessions.  Your comment was in response to Wayne's comment about camps.  

You clearly misunderstood my point.  That said, it seems clear you're absolutely positive that I'm being disingenuous and hostile, even after I've tried to clarify several times, so it seems like it's pointless to try to convince you otherwise.  "A man convinced against his will remains of the same opinion still."  As I said before, I wish you and your family all the best and that's were I'll have to leave it. 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Daniel2

[SeekingUnderstanding]

6 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Got it.  You have no idea.  It's just a soundbite for you. 

Projecting much? It seems this thread has clearly touched a nerve for you. Peace to you and your family. 

[Tacenda]

Has anyone seen "Boy Erased", sounds similar to the techniques tried on Daniel, except Daniel's therapy sessions, were far worse than what was portrayed in the movie, far worse. And the male leader/teacher also, ended up coming out gay and living out his sexuality. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

If the people do it on a volunteer basis, why should it be banned.  Its amazing that in America which is supposed to be the land of the free to have so many laws and so many things banned. 

Because many sent to these camps and therapy centers and what have you are not of age. So some well-meaning parents send their kid there thinking there is some hope of success not knowing the entire field is unregulated and basically consists of everything from well-meaning quacks to money-seeking quacks.

Even if people are of age an unregulated marketplace for this stuff is insane. It is almost impossible to do effective research on the effectiveness of clinics like this. Same with substance abuse rehab clinics. In some places you have to get a license but most of the time you do not and there are no legal guidelines around it. I could open a clinic for opium addicts and insist that standing on one's head will help you overcome your addiction and that is completely legal. Libertarian ideals fail before the reality of the snake-oil salesman and the con-artist. It is easy to concoct an internet presence that suggests success. Throw up a slick looking website, a nice looking campus, a few fake reviews, a dummy site pretending to be neutral recommending what you are selling, get someone in a lab coat to approve in a YouTube video, and bam, you can appear respectable.

I hit this earlier this year. I had decided to get a specific exotic pet. I went online to do some research and found myself deluged with advice on how to care for the animal. Everything from seemingly lunatic obsessives to more practical advice. Finally I found an association of vets for this specific animal and read up on their advice until I realized the association website was a shell at best and the whole organization was basically used as a shill for an unethical pet mill. It was frustrating and annoying and made me wish the Savior would come down and burn all the liars as promised. And that is just for a pet.

Imagine you need real help. Your child is struggling with SSA and you turn to the internet. You are likely to be a lot less clearheaded then I was and a lot more desperate. Anything promising a way to help your child with their struggle will seem like a divine gift. Meanwhile the entire marketplace is unregulated and anyone with a pulse and a little bit of money can open a center to "help". We have even started licensing programs for pseudoscience. Chiropractors can pretend they are actually medical professionals and not a bunch of witch doctors practicing voodoo.

The reason the marketplace is so regulated is that people are scum. I remember a few years back the FDA did an investigation of the supplements industry. They found that a scary amount of the supplements being pushed did not even have the ingredients they were touted for. The FDA sought enforcement power to discipline the supplement industry for lying about their ingredient labels (they did not touch the issue of whether the stuff actually worked). The supplement industry hired a bunch of movie stars, corralled their bought and paid for Congressional leaders (including Orrin Hatch, which is why I am glad he is gone), ran a nasty commercial campaign about how the government was trying to take away people's Vitamin C pills, and the measure died. I have lately noticed that the supplements are now being put right next to and even with actual medicine on pharmacy shelves. Whoever thought that up is going to burn in hell.

If people are liars we need more regulations. Perhaps we should go with the Book of Mormon solution where we are told lying was actually a crime and then we would not need to regulate so heavily. Then again we seem to be okay with electing people telling out itching ears lies to political office so I doubt that will fly either.

We doomed.

[kllindley]

4 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Kllindley,

Thank you for attempting to answer my CFR of your claim that I have "acted aggressively" (and presumably unfairly).

If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that my actions of:

• posting a link to FAIR where David Matheson explains his views on therapy, followed by
• a news source from Truth Wins Out on David Matheson, which includes a direct quote from David Matheson himself showing his own words which verify the news source,
• coupled with my only words I offered that accompanied the news source that "David Matheson was married to a woman,  was my own therapist for several months while I was living on the East Coast in 2004, and is featured in the following FAIR podcast (which is still an active link on the FAIR website),"
• followed by a subsequent post of mine saying,  "I can't get the quote feature to work properly, so here's the update from Truth Wins Out,"

..that I am somehow "glowingly quot[ing the author of the news source] as a hero for finding out about David's personal decisions through private Facebook hero"...?

Daniel, maybe you don't remember, but your comments in the aftermath of the Believer Documentary were personally offensive and stuck with me.  So, yes.  When I saw that you had posted about this issue, I picked up the conversation where it left off.  

4 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Kllindley, this seems to clearly have touched a nerve in you.  For my part, all I can say is that my intentions do not reflect the aggression and hostility you seem to be projecting on me.  I have posted before about the compassion I have for families undergoing any divorce for whatever reason, and especially in the instances of mixed-orientation.  I didn't say anything more about Matheson's wife because I have no idea what the circumstances are--the article itself doesn't say anything about whether or not Matheson is divorcing or the state of his relationship with his wife and children.  I'm not even aware if they are divorcing or if their family is facing "destruction" (I AM aware of some mixed-orientation marriages that choose to create their own relationship rules which include allowing a same-sex-attracted spouse to seek out same-sex intimacy; I don't know if that's the case here or not).

I guess Wayne wasn't interested in presenting the whole context.  I learned about David's divorce yesterday as a part of a private facebook post to a private facebook group.  That post was shared with Wayne by someone who had committed to keeping information shared there confidential.  So I'm sure part of my anger comes from the fact that a group that should have been a safe source or support was severely compromised.  

4 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Matheson is and has been a very prominent figure in how many LDS men have learned to deal with their sexuality.  If you think he should just be able to quietly slip away and lead a gay life without anyone discussing his private actions, his marriage to a woman, and his feelings that he was 'dying inside,' and all without others discussing it, then yes, you and I disagree.  Matheson is a public figure who made his living off of men like me.  Your experiences may have been different and positive for you.  He may have treated you differently in therapy than he did me and others--------but that does NOT mean that I am misrepresenting MY experiences with him.  Your experiences do NOT negate the veracity of mine.  And again, if you feel that my shedding light on this news and attempting to hold the major and very public professional upon whom I relied to understand myself accountable for his actions, especially when those actions by him have led to destructive and damaging behaviors, then yes... we disagree.  That said, my motives are not hostile but compassionate for people like Matheson, but I believe we can be compassionate and yet still call for accountability, and all without rancor or malice.

D

Again, I apologize for misreading that you were talking about individual therapy sessions you had with him.  I will absolutely stand up when false claims are made about Journey into Manhood.   Just as I would expect you to when someone comes on here and says "I know all gays are shallow and sex obsessed because I have a friend who was gay and he was."

I have no problem discussing the impact he had on the community or discussing his situation. IN fact, I would think that we should have a more thorough discussion about all the circumstances that led to these events in his life.  I think it is important to consider what he meant that he did not see this decision as a repudiation of his work, but as an illustration of why it is correct.  I would want to know what he meant by saying that his marriage and work were genuine and that he did not regret them.  In fairness, that is not what you did.  You posted a piece from a man who hates Mormons and hates anyone who dares not embrace a gay identity.  What kind of a discussion were you hoping to have?  

[sjdawg]

1 hour ago, kllindley said:

I can but I won't. Could/would you disprove lies about what happens in the temple? 

CFR them.  Back it up or retract your statement that Daniel is lying.

I see no correlation to what happens in the temple.

[kllindley]

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Because many sent to these camps and therapy centers and what have you are not of age. So some well-meaning parents send their kid there thinking there is some hope of success not knowing the entire field is unregulated and basically consists of everything from well-meaning quacks to money-seeking quacks.

Even if people are of age an unregulated marketplace for this stuff is insane. It is almost impossible to do effective research on the effectiveness of clinics like this. Same with substance abuse rehab clinics. In some places you have to get a license but most of the time you do not and there are no legal guidelines around it. I could open a clinic for opium addicts and insist that standing on one's head will help you overcome your addiction and that is completely legal. Libertarian ideals fail before the reality of the snake-oil salesman and the con-artist. It is easy to concoct an internet presence that suggests success. Throw up a slick looking website, a nice looking campus, a few fake reviews, a dummy site pretending to be neutral recommending what you are selling, get someone in a lab coat to approve in a YouTube video, and bam, you can appear respectable.

I hit this earlier this year. I had decided to get a specific exotic pet. I went online to do some research and found myself deluged with advice on how to care for the animal. Everything from seemingly lunatic obsessives to more practical advice. Finally I found an association of vets for this specific animal and read up on their advice until I realized the association website was a shell at best and the whole organization was basically used as a shill for an unethical pet mill. It was frustrating and annoying and made me wish the Savior would come down and burn all the liars as promised. And that is just for a pet.

Imagine you need real help. Your child is struggling with SSA and you turn to the internet. You are likely to be a lot less clearheaded then I was and a lot more desperate. Anything promising a way to help your child with their struggle will seem like a divine gift. Meanwhile the entire marketplace is unregulated and anyone with a pulse and a little bit of money can open a center to "help". We have even started licensing programs for pseudoscience. Chiropractors can pretend they are actually medical professionals and not a bunch of witch doctors practicing voodoo.

The reason the marketplace is so regulated is that people are scum. I remember a few years back the FDA did an investigation of the supplements industry. They found that a scary amount of the supplements being pushed did not even have the ingredients they were touted for. The FDA sought enforcement power to discipline the supplement industry for lying about their ingredient labels (they did not touch the issue of whether the stuff actually worked). The supplement industry hired a bunch of movie stars, corralled their bought and paid for Congressional leaders (including Orrin Hatch, which is why I am glad he is gone), ran a nasty commercial campaign about how the government was trying to take away people's Vitamin C pills, and the measure died. I have lately noticed that the supplements are now being put right next to and even with actual medicine on pharmacy shelves. Whoever thought that up is going to burn in hell.

If people are liars we need more regulations. Perhaps we should go with the Book of Mormon solution where we are told lying was actually a crime and then we would not need to regulate so heavily. Then again we seem to be okay with electing people telling out itching ears lies to political office so I doubt that will fly either.

We doomed.

This is all too true.  There are dangers of things being unregulated.  However, there is also a danger that a pharmaceutical company (or other interest) uses it's leverage to suppress information challenging their product or offering a cheaper, safer alternative.  I truly believe that this is what is happening around many efforts to help people who do not want to embrace a gay identity.  Some of the efforts are just what you say well-meaning quacks to snake-oil salesmen.  It that was all that was being targeted, I would gladly join the fight.  But sadly, even the Church's position about homosexual activity is often considered to be just as harmful as the most abusive practices out there.  

[kllindley]

3 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

CFR them.  Back it up or retract your statement that Daniel is lying.

I see no correlation to what happens in the temple.

You've apparently not read the rest of the conversation.  Peace. 

[sjdawg]

59 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Where did I ever say that it wan't okay for Daniel to be aggressive?  I simply pointed to his behavior when another poster claimed that he has always been patient and fair.  

I don't even know what gay conversion therapy is.  I've never met anyone who practiced it.  Do you have any references?

To be clear I did not say that Daniel has always been patient and fair.  I assume no one is always patient.  I said he has been a poster for a long time and is patient and fair.  I also assume you are not always unfairly judgmental but today you are coming across that way

Edited January 22, 2019 by sjdawg

[sjdawg]

2 minutes ago, kllindley said:

You've apparently not read the rest of the conversation.  Peace. 

Can you please point me to where you have shown that Daniel is lying?

[kllindley]

2 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

To be clear I did not say that Daniel has always been patient and fair.  I assume no one is always patient.  I said he has been a poster for a long time and is patient and fair.  I also assume you are not always unfairly judgmental but today you are coming across that way

That is fair.  I'm sure I have come across that way.  From my perspective, it was warranted.  But I understand that other people do not share my perspective.  

[kllindley]

2 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

Can you please point me to where you have shown that Daniel is lying?

I withdrew the accusation because he clarified that he was talking about personal therapy sessions not the Journey into Manhood weekend.  Of course I could not know anything about what happened at the his private therapy sessions.  

[sjdawg]

Just now, kllindley said:

I withdrew the accusation because he clarified that he was talking about personal therapy sessions not the Journey into Manhood weekend.  Of course I could not know anything about what happened at the his private therapy sessions.  

Thank you.   Sorry, I missed that part.

[kllindley]

1 minute ago, sjdawg said:

Thank you.   Sorry, I missed that part.

np

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

If the people do it on a volunteer basis, why should it be banned.  Its amazing that in America which is supposed to be the land of the free to have so many laws and so many things banned. 

The legislation proposal is to ban this for minors as has been done in some other states already.  

https://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-world/2018/12/31/elections-films-help/

[Gray]

16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Milo says it can be learnt, as it was normally in Classical Greece, and can then become a habit.  It may not have been wise for male mentors to deliberately introduce all young men to the delights of homosexuality.  Once learned, can one go back?  The orthodox Jewish community and early Jewish Christians wisely resisted that aspect of Hellenization, which even included reversing traces of circumcision -- since Greek culture made it a policy to engage in sports nude..

Milo the antisemitic pedophile alt-right professional troll?

[rpn]

23 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 Humans have very fluid gender attitudes, and appropriate grooming and active molestation of minors can habituate them to a variety of tactile, erotic responses which may not be inborn, and may even become controlling or obsessive-compulsive. 

IME, virtually every child who has been abused by a same sex person (especially those who responded physically), and many who participated in same sex behavior as a child believe they must be/are gay until  or unless they have someone who tells them that isn't necessarily true.   Kids who are taunted as being gay may also think the same thing.   And there are those kids who were molested or raped by opposite sex people who only feel safe with their own sex.

Edited January 22, 2019 by rpn

[kllindley]

10 minutes ago, rpn said:

IME, virtually every child who has been abused by a same sex person (especially those who responded physically), and many who participated in same sex behavior as a child belief they must be/are gay until  or unless they have someone who tells them that isn't necessarily true.   Kids who are taunted as being gay may also think the same thing.   And there are those kids who were molested or raped by opposite sex people who only feel safe with their own sex.

An astute, but politically unpopular, observation. 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

Milo the antisemitic pedophile alt-right professional troll?

Exactly, and Milo loves it when someone mentions that during Q&A.  He then quickly owns them.  😂

[Gray]

47 minutes ago, rpn said:

IME, virtually every child who has been abused by a same sex person (especially those who responded physically), and many who participated in same sex behavior as a child belief they must be/are gay until  or unless they have someone who tells them that isn't necessarily true.   Kids who are taunted as being gay may also think the same thing.   And there are those kids who were molested or raped by opposite sex people who only feel safe with their own sex.

This is right up there with the domineering mother/distant father theory of sexual orientation.

[Gray]

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

Exactly, and Milo loves it when someone mentions that during Q&A.  He then quickly owns them.  😂

Milo owned himself harder than he ever owned anyone else. Already on shaky ground as a professional troll, now he's gone full NAMBLA and is completely unemployable.

[Robert F. Smith]

31 minutes ago, Gray said:

Milo owned himself harder than he ever owned anyone else. Already on shaky ground as a professional troll, now he's gone full NAMBLA and is completely unemployable.

It is not clear to me that this "full NAMBLA" claim is true.  Perhaps you have the facts available.  For perspective, see https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/milo-yiannopoulos-latest-news-paedophilia-breitbart-video-child-abuse-right-wing-sexual-relationship-a7589656.html .