Prominent FAIR-Featured LDS SSA Therapist now identifies as gay and dating men

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

I wonder... were you and the other members of the Facebook group were as angry at and outraged towards Rich Wyler for his clear violation of confidentiality by outing Matheson to your FB group as you were at Besson for his breech of confidentiality..

I think speaking about other members' reactions would be a violation of confidentiality.

If Wyler hadn't received permission from Matheson to speak about it, then obviously he was in the wrong.  Kind of a nobrainer.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Calm

[Gray]

Thought this would go well here:

Commentary: Years of ‘conversion therapy’ only made things worse

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2019/02/03/commentary-years/

Excerpt:

Quote

All these efforts succeeded in one way — alienating me from everyone, including me. Hating myself became as natural as breathing.

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by Gray

[kllindley]

23 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

I can understand how both organizations would rather not address the issue because I'm not sure there's any response that could really add much of a positive spin on Matheson's departure.  That said, it feels.... wrong, for lack of a better word, for at least JIM/BR not to address something so profound as one's founding father renouncing the principles which he established.  For example, had Steven Covey ultimately publicly renounced the principles of "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" and gone on record as saying the principles he revolutionized didn't actually work, one presumes "Franklin-Covey" would issue a response.... To quietly erase and expunge Matheson and his influence without acknowledging it seems to me to send a message that there isn't strength in their position or convictions.

To me, and I sincerely mean this as a significant complement to you, I wish they would issue a statement very similar to what you wrote above.... 

"Matheson had withdrawn from the Brother's Road organization several years ago and from therapy entirely a couple of years ago.   David Matheson had no involvement in the organization of North Star.  He volunteered to contribute to the Voices of Hope video project, and his video has been removed at (I think) his wife's request.   I know that for the vast majority of people in both organizations, our trust was never in David Matheson.  Our trust is in the Lord and His promises to us.  While David's personal journey is to be honored and his agency to make decisions must be respected; the fact that he experienced a loss of faith is not unique.

I honestly think this was beautifully put, and well said, and I think that would be at least an attempt to speak from a position of strength rather than the silence that outsiders and former members perceive as weakness and/or whitewashing born of fear.  That said, I understand I am not those organizations, and I understand my views are not theirs, and they are, of course, free to set the limits as they see fit.

It's clear to me from a few of your comments above that you probably hadn’t listened to either the podcast or the KUTV interview of Matheson posted earlier in this threads, since he actually addresses some of the points in your post above that you seem uncertain of (i.e. "As far as I know, Matheson had withdrawn from the Brother's Road organization several years ago and from therapy entirely a couple of years ago." If you had listened to the podcast or the interview, you'd know for certain about those two aspects, because he discusses them in full). 

Have you listened to them? 

I have not.  I don't have any plans to listen to them.  I understand that this decision limits the extent to which I can meaningfully contribute to the topic.

I just really don't work well in the whole podcast-audio/video format.  If it's written I can read it quickly and recall enough to work with the material later.   

23 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

What were your thoughts on what he had to say about what does work and what doesn't work, therapeutically speaking? 

You've made the case here that sexuality is fluid--do you agree with what he had to say about fluidity in his interviews?

If you were to provide a transcript or some sort of written summary, I would be happy to respond to the ideas he talks about. 

 

23 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

One final note:

According to a new article on the issue by MSN itself, we now know that it was Rich Wyler himself, Matheson's former business/therapy partner and JIM co-founder, is the one who outed Matheson (against Matheson’s will) to the private Facebook group you're a part of, Kllindley:

The announcement was revealed by fellow gay conversation advocate Rich Wyler, founder of the People Can Change organization, in a post to a private Facebook group obtained by Truth Wins Out (TWO), a group who fight against anti-LGBT prejudice and discrimination.  “David…says that living a single, celibate life ‘just isn’t feasible' for him, so he’s seeking a male partner,” Wyler wrote. “He has gone from bisexuality to exclusively gay.”

I wonder... were you and the other members of the Facebook group were as angry at and outraged towards Rich Wyler for his clear violation of confidentiality by outing Matheson to your FB group as you were at Besson for his breech of confidentiality...?

For anyone else interested, the rest of the MSN article is here:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/gay-conversion-therapist-announces-he-is-homosexual/ar-BBSA3Kx?li=BBnbcA1

 

I can't speak for anyone else.  I feel no outrage over Rich's disclosure.  I have serious reservations that the disclosure occurred against Matheson's will.  

I also think Characterizing Rich as a business partner is either mistaken or intentionally misleading (though the intent may not be yours in any way.)  Brother's Road (formerly People Can Change) is a 503c Non-profit organization.  Being familiar with the organization's finances, I always find it laughable that people (again not necessarily you) claim that the organization exists or operates it's weekends to make any profit.  Of course, Matheson's private therapy practice is a separate issue. 

[kllindley]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

I think speaking about other members' reactions would be a violation of confidentiality.

Yes.

18 hours ago, Calm said:

If Wyler hadn't received permission from Matheson to speak about it, then obviously he was in the wrong.  Kind of a nobrainer.

Also, yes.  I have serious reservations about the claim that Wyler acted without permission from Matheson.  It was obvious that several people had known about Matheson's divorce and life decisions for some months and had waited until being given permission to address it even in that purportedly confidential setting.  If it turns out that it was indeed without permission, then obviously it was wrong.  

[Daniel2]

On 1/21/2019 at 3:56 PM, kllindley said:

I'm saying you are lying about what those methodologies are. 

 

On 1/21/2019 at 4:39 PM, kllindley said:

I am not going to apologize for being sick of the way you mock and distort what happens at Journey into Manhood.  Either you know the truth and are intentionally lying, or you are just parroting what others have claimed.  Either way, it's ridiculous.  

Great Britain's TV Channel 4 just released an informative news piece interviewing Matheson and the Chaim Levin (the Jewish New Yorker who testified against JONAH, sort of like the Jewish version of Evergreen, and who attended Journey into Manhood twice).  Matheson himself describes a few of the things that occurred into Journey into Manhood.

Regarding what goes on (or has historically gone on) in JIM/BR, and tryinbg to be accurate and clear about what does go on or what you say has been 'distorted' previously in the discussion,, Matheson addresses several of the things that have been discussed about JIM/BR.  Specifically he states:

• "There's a certain amount of holding that goes on--guys holding guys.  A lotta guys love it, a lotta guys, it creates a real problem for them."  [The individual I know who attended, who's name was Steve, characterized his experience on his particular retreat as 'guys cuddling with other guys.']
• "Something that makes me cringe even more is that--on a different retreat--there's a lot of nudity in it.  And as we created that--the other creator and I thought this'll be really relieving for men, because all the shame they feel about their own bodies and all the weirdness about other men's bodies will go away. And for us, that was the effect that that kinda thing had, but there were a lot of other men, that got really freaked out by that.  And so now, I look back on that and say, 'Please tell me that didn't happen... please tell me we didn't create that thing in there!'"
• The interviewer says, "You are a trained therapist, surely you should have spotted the signs...? You've been doing it for 25 years..." to which Matheson responds, "Yeah, you're right.  You're right.  And that's part of my culpability."
• Although clips in the BR info/co-mmercial included in the clip above advertising the BR experience doesn't show a Native American sweat lodge, it does shows a group of (clothed) men standing around in a circle beating Native American drums in an outdoor drum circle.  [Again, the individual I know said his retreat included a naked Native American sweat lodge].
• The reporter says that one man they interviewed who attended on multiple occasions says he was "exposed to traumatic psycho-drama techniques, and homophobic scenarios were recreated which left him feeling suicidal for years later."  She also says that "the retreat denies this."

The clip above also clarifies there are still two formats for what used to be called JIM, now called Brother's Road, and that there are two upcoming sessions for BR--a shorter version that doesn't include nudity, and a longer, more in depth version that still does.

Further, what I find entirely unusual about the whole JIM/BR experience is that attendees are told to keep the content of the program itself confidential (not only the privacy of the participants themselves, which is obviously appropriate)—allegedly (from what I understand) to somehow maintain the program's effectiveness for those that haven't yet attended... as if "overcoming SSA" or '"diminishing unwanted SSA" or whatever the newly-rebranded terms are can only be effective if done in secret or relies on some sort of new exposure that has to be experienced in person without pre-exposure to just exactly what happens.  Attendees are told not to share the details of the experience outside of the experience itself, or only with those that have experienced it for themselves, and graduates are invited back to become mentors for new inductees.  There's also an air about maintaining the secrecy of 'not casting your pearls before swine,'  and in the case of JIM/BR, the pearls being the unconventional experiences helping diminish SSA and the swine being those of us who are skeptical that the experience works. 

To me, that expectation of enforced confidentiality of the experience is indicative of a couple of things: first, it implies what seems like a cultish need to control the narrative of what happens so that it has to be experienced in secret.  Second, it implies there are things that may be going on that most people would react negatively to, if they new the truth about what goes on there (as Matheson, the co-creator himself, says he now finds cringe-worthy). 

Of course, my perception of the whole JIM/BR is colored by my past.  Steve (the man I knew who attended and described his experience to me), attended the experience around 2004/2005ish, and did so only at the demands of his devout LDS parents (who were the president and matron of the Oaxaca Mexico temple at the time), and had a terrible and traumatic experience.  He attended the longer retreat (which includes the nudity), but left before it was finished.  He described to me experiences including the nudity, the holding/cuddling other men (supposed to be giving love from their fathers that they supposedly never experienced), activities involving recreating traumatic locker room bullying or key moments from attendees' past to try to overcome them, activities involving finding and releasing paternal anger by imagining one was at the edge of a hole and screaming at one's absent fathers or beating physical objects (as I had experienced in therapy with Matheson himself), the Native American sweat lodge, the blindfolded activity relying on a mentor to navigate an outdoor obstacle course, and a group activity of physically writing labels and attaching those labels to each other and then adding positive ones and removing negative ones, etc.  He also told me of the confidentiality agreement he was expected to sign before the weekend began.  His particular event was held in a remote desert lodge facility that was rented out for the week in Arizona.  They took away the attendees phones and any electronic devices and locked the gate at the road leading into the lodge. After a few days of attendance and in particular after the sweat lodge, Steve was so traumatized that he secretly packed his things and left in the middle of the night.  He had driven there himself in his truck, and had to leave by driving around the locked gate and through some ditches and underbrush to get back to the road to get out.  He called me in tears and it was clear how disturbed he was by the experience.  Steve himself ultimately committed suicide about two years later (for which there definitely were multiple triggers and factors, so I don't mean to imply JIM was entirely responsible, but I do believe it was one of many contributing factors, which included extreme rejection by his family).

Now, Matheson himself says that if BR continues to do any of the things that he mentions, they need to stop.  Mr. Levin indicates the longer version of BR still includes nudity.  Kllindley, if your experience with BR has been different or you'd like to confirm that the above things are no longer happening, I'd love for you to add context and see if/how things have changed.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Daniel2

[kllindley]

1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

 

Great Britain's TV Channel 4 just released an informative news piece interviewing Matheson and the Chaim Levin (the Jewish New Yorker who testified against JONAH, sort of like the Jewish version of Evergreen, and who attended Journey into Manhood twice).  Matheson himself describes a few of the things that occurred into Journey into Manhood.

Regarding what goes on (or has historically gone on) in JIM/BR, and tryinbg to be accurate and clear about what does go on or what you say has been 'distorted' previously in the discussion,, Matheson addresses several of the things that have been discussed about JIM/BR.  Specifically he states:

• "There's a certain amount of holding that goes on--guys holding guys.  A lotta guys love it, a lotta guys, it creates a real problem for them."  [The individual I know who attended, who's name was Steve, characterized his experience on his particular retreat as 'guys cuddling with other guys.']

I think physical touch and in this case structured holding is perfectly healthy and healing.  Individuals are informed and reminded of their complete autonomy in deciding whether or not to participate in the process.  To characterize it as cuddling I think is disingenuous.  

 

1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

• "Something that makes me cringe even more is that--on a different retreat--there's a lot of nudity in it.  And as we created that--the other creator and I thought this'll be really relieving for men, because all the shame they feel about their own bodies and all the weirdness about other men's bodies will go away. And for us, that was the effect that that kinda thing had, but there were a lot of other men, that got really freaked out by that.  And so now, I look back on that and say, 'Please tell me that didn't happen... please tell me we didn't create that thing in there!'"

The other retreat is Journey Beyond.  I have not attended Journey Beyond.  I have no intention of attending Journey Beyond because in prayerfully seeking to know what resources would be helpful, I have not felt any prompting to attend.  I am aware that there is a carefully structured experience containing nudity there.  I don't really have an opinion about the appropriateness of this exercise, because I don't know anything about the context or how it is run.  

 

1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

• The interviewer says, "You are a trained therapist, surely you should have spotted the signs...? You've been doing it for 25 years..." to which Matheson responds, "Yeah, you're right.  You're right.  And that's part of my culpability."

I can't speak to what Matheson now thinks is so problematic.  As a trained therapist, I cannot think of anything that is problematic on the Journey into Manhood weekend. 

 

1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

• Although clips in the BR info/co-mmercial included in the clip above advertising the BR experience doesn't show a Native American sweat lodge, it does shows a group of (clothed) men standing around in a circle beating Native American drums in an outdoor drum circle.  [Again, the individual I know said his retreat included a naked Native American sweat lodge].

I have never heard of any Journey into Manhood weekend that has the sweat lodge.  Again, I can't speak for Journey Beyond.  However, please see my comment below about the ManKind Project.

 

1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

• The reporter says that one man they interviewed who attended on multiple occasions says he was "exposed to traumatic psycho-drama techniques, and homophobic scenarios were recreated which left him feeling suicidal for years later."  She also says that "the retreat denies this."

The clip above also clarifies there are still two formats for what used to be called JIM, now called Brother's Road, and that there are two upcoming sessions for BR--a shorter version that doesn't include nudity, and a longer, more in depth version that still does.

There are two different events.  Neither have been renamed.  The renaming applies to the organization.  People Can Change is not Brother's Road.  Journey into Manhood is a Friday-Sunday retreat.  Journey Beyond is a much more in-depth, Wednesday through Sunday event.  Applicants to Journey Beyond are required to have done significant personal work, such as individual therapy and are more tightly screened to help prevent individuals who might be more vulnerable from experiencing harm.  

 

1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

Further, what I find entirely unusual about the whole JIM/BR experience is that attendees are told to keep the contexts of the program confidential, allegedly (from what I understand) to somehow maintain the program's effectiveness for those that haven't yet attended... as if "overcoming SSA" or '"diminishing unwanted SSA" or whatever the newly-rebranded terms are can only be effective if done in secret or relies on some sort of new exposure that has to be experienced in person without pre-exposure to just exactly what happens.  Attendees are told not to share the details of the experience outside of the experience itself, or only with those that have experienced it for themselves, and graduates are invited back to become mentors for new inductees.  There's also an air about maintaining the secrecy of 'not casting your pearls before swine,'  and in the case of JIM/BR, the pearls being the unconventional experiences helping diminish SSA and the swine being those of us who are skeptical that the experience works. 

To me, that expectation of enforced confidentiality of the experience is indicative of a couple of things: first, it implies what seems like a cultish need to control the narrative of what happens so that it has to be experienced in secret.  Second, it implies there are things that may be going on that most people would react negatively to, if they new the truth about what goes on there (as Matheson, the co-creator himself, says he now finds cringe-worthy). 

I don't think the confidentiality is at all about the effectiveness of any sort of sexual orientation change.  It has a lot more to do with emotional/experiential impact.  There is a legitimate argument that the experience is more impactful if experienced rather than intellectualized.  This is a common theme in therapy.  Emotions need to be felt not just talked about conceptually.  Some people are perfectly capable of experiencing things if they know about the process and what to expect.  Others have a lot of defensive mechanisms.  For these individuals knowing ahead of time makes remaining in the experience more difficult.  Is that sufficient justification for such strict confidentiality?  I can't speak for everyone, but I know that my experience was much more meaningful not knowing beforehand.  

I do wish the community would open up more about the specific processes that take place at JiM.  I don't think there is anything to be embarrassed about with individuals who are sincerely trying to be objective and seeking to understand.  I think that anything in the context of not completely affirming and embracing an LGBT identity will be mocked and twisted.  I think that many people are motivated to present these efforts in the worst possible light.  Considering that, I can understand a desire to keep things more secret, even if I ultimately disagree with the decision.   

 

1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

Of course, my perception of the whole JIM/BR is colored by my past.  Steve (the man I knew who attended and described his experience to me), attended the experience around 2004/2005ish, and did so only at the demands of his devout LDS parents (who were the president and matron of the Oaxaca Mexico temple at the time), and had a terrible and traumatic experience.  He attended the longer retreat (which includes the nudity), but left before it was finished.  He described to me experiences including the nudity, the holding/cuddling other men (supposed to be giving love from their fathers that they supposedly never experienced), activities involving recreating traumatic locker room bullying or key moments from attendees' past to try to overcome them, activities involving finding and releasing paternal anger by imagining one was at the edge of a hole and screaming at one's absent fathers or beating physical objects (as I had experienced in therapy with Matheson himself), the Native American sweat lodge, the blindfolded activity relying on a mentor to navigate an outdoor obstacle course, and a group activity of physically writing labels and attaching those labels to each other and then adding positive ones and removing negative ones, etc.  He also told me of the confidentiality agreement he was expected to sign before the weekend began.  His particular event was held in a remote desert lodge facility that was rented out for the week in Arizona.  They took away the attendees phones and any electronic devices and locked the gate at the road leading into the lodge. After a few days of attendance and in particular after the sweat lodge, Steve was so traumatized that he secretly packed his things and left in the middle of the night.  He had driven there himself in his truck, and had to leave by driving around the locked gate and through some ditches and underbrush to get back to the road to get out.  He called me in tears and it was clear how disturbed he was by the experience.  Steve himself ultimately committed suicide about two years later (for which there definitely were multiple triggers and factors, so I don't mean to imply JIM was entirely responsible, but I do believe it was one of many contributing factors, which included extreme rejection by his family).

Are you familiar with the ManKind Project?  They have a weekend retreat called the New Warrior Training Adventure.  This retreat is a major part of the mythopeotic men's movement and is held almost every weekend somewhere throughout the United States and outside the US as well.  The NWTA is heavily infused with Native American themes of initiation into mature manhood and finding one's personal mission.  The protocol of the Journey into Manhood weekend was modeled in part on the NWTA weekend.  MKP is explicitly affirming of all men and respectful of religious values as well as LGBT identity.  In fact there is a NWTA held regularly specifically for LGBT men.  I have not participated in the NWTA, although many of the men in the Brother's Road community have.  From their reports, the NWTA is actually more intense and confrontational than JiM.  It does include nudity and a Native American Sweat Lodge.  For many years, the protocol for the NWTA was also kept confidential.  Several years ago, the MKP leadership made the decision to make their protocol public.  Here is what I find ironic: I have never heard an opponent of the JiM weekend also criticize and condemn MKP and their NWTA weekend.  

The idea of recreating past traumatic experiences as a means to heal from them is the foundation of a non controversial technique of psychodrama or sociometry.  This is often performed in non-therapeutic settings.  This is in no way unique to JiM.  The MKP NWTA has as one of it's central points "GUTS work."  (There are strict guidelines for physical and emotional safety that are in place by experienced process leaders, such that actual trauma is not re-enacted, all participants are instructed in physical and emotional safety measures, including the freedom to pause or discontinue any activity. At JiM, these process leaders are required to have training - usually through MKP)  Nothing in this exercise is designed to have a specific content or theme, other than "wounds around men/masculinity."  So no one is prompted or instructed to find anger at their fathers.  If that is the primary wound a man identifies that he wants to work through, then sure.  But in my experience, for most it isn't.  

I have no experience with any exercise involving being led blindfolded.  Maybe a Journey Beyond  or NWTA thing? Also, I don't have any knowledge of any experience with an exercise involving labels.   A lot of what you are describing sounds more like a NWTA event than JiM.  At Journey into Manhood, participants are free to leave at any time.   Phones are never confiscated, though individuals are asked to leave them in their vehicles.  Further, I am pretty sure that Journey Beyond has only ever been held in Indiana.         

 

1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

Now, Matheson himself says that if BR continues to do any of the things that he mentions, they need to stop.  Mr. Levin indicates the longer version of BR still includes nudity.  Kllindley, if your experience with BR has been different or you'd like to confirm that the above things are no longer happening, I'd love for you to add context and see if/how things have changed.

 

[california boy]

7 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

 

Great Britain's TV Channel 4 just released an informative news piece interviewing Matheson and the Chaim Levin (the Jewish New Yorker who testified against JONAH, sort of like the Jewish version of Evergreen, and who attended Journey into Manhood twice).  Matheson himself describes a few of the things that occurred into Journey into Manhood.

Regarding what goes on (or has historically gone on) in JIM/BR, and tryinbg to be accurate and clear about what does go on or what you say has been 'distorted' previously in the discussion,, Matheson addresses several of the things that have been discussed about JIM/BR.  Specifically he states:

• "There's a certain amount of holding that goes on--guys holding guys.  A lotta guys love it, a lotta guys, it creates a real problem for them."  [The individual I know who attended, who's name was Steve, characterized his experience on his particular retreat as 'guys cuddling with other guys.']
• "Something that makes me cringe even more is that--on a different retreat--there's a lot of nudity in it.  And as we created that--the other creator and I thought this'll be really relieving for men, because all the shame they feel about their own bodies and all the weirdness about other men's bodies will go away. And for us, that was the effect that that kinda thing had, but there were a lot of other men, that got really freaked out by that.  And so now, I look back on that and say, 'Please tell me that didn't happen... please tell me we didn't create that thing in there!'"
• The interviewer says, "You are a trained therapist, surely you should have spotted the signs...? You've been doing it for 25 years..." to which Matheson responds, "Yeah, you're right.  You're right.  And that's part of my culpability."
• Although clips in the BR info/co-mmercial included in the clip above advertising the BR experience doesn't show a Native American sweat lodge, it does shows a group of (clothed) men standing around in a circle beating Native American drums in an outdoor drum circle.  [Again, the individual I know said his retreat included a naked Native American sweat lodge].
• The reporter says that one man they interviewed who attended on multiple occasions says he was "exposed to traumatic psycho-drama techniques, and homophobic scenarios were recreated which left him feeling suicidal for years later."  She also says that "the retreat denies this."

The clip above also clarifies there are still two formats for what used to be called JIM, now called Brother's Road, and that there are two upcoming sessions for BR--a shorter version that doesn't include nudity, and a longer, more in depth version that still does.

Further, what I find entirely unusual about the whole JIM/BR experience is that attendees are told to keep the content of the program itself confidential (not only the privacy of the participants themselves, which is obviously appropriate)—allegedly (from what I understand) to somehow maintain the program's effectiveness for those that haven't yet attended... as if "overcoming SSA" or '"diminishing unwanted SSA" or whatever the newly-rebranded terms are can only be effective if done in secret or relies on some sort of new exposure that has to be experienced in person without pre-exposure to just exactly what happens.  Attendees are told not to share the details of the experience outside of the experience itself, or only with those that have experienced it for themselves, and graduates are invited back to become mentors for new inductees.  There's also an air about maintaining the secrecy of 'not casting your pearls before swine,'  and in the case of JIM/BR, the pearls being the unconventional experiences helping diminish SSA and the swine being those of us who are skeptical that the experience works. 

To me, that expectation of enforced confidentiality of the experience is indicative of a couple of things: first, it implies what seems like a cultish need to control the narrative of what happens so that it has to be experienced in secret.  Second, it implies there are things that may be going on that most people would react negatively to, if they new the truth about what goes on there (as Matheson, the co-creator himself, says he now finds cringe-worthy). 

Of course, my perception of the whole JIM/BR is colored by my past.  Steve (the man I knew who attended and described his experience to me), attended the experience around 2004/2005ish, and did so only at the demands of his devout LDS parents (who were the president and matron of the Oaxaca Mexico temple at the time), and had a terrible and traumatic experience.  He attended the longer retreat (which includes the nudity), but left before it was finished.  He described to me experiences including the nudity, the holding/cuddling other men (supposed to be giving love from their fathers that they supposedly never experienced), activities involving recreating traumatic locker room bullying or key moments from attendees' past to try to overcome them, activities involving finding and releasing paternal anger by imagining one was at the edge of a hole and screaming at one's absent fathers or beating physical objects (as I had experienced in therapy with Matheson himself), the Native American sweat lodge, the blindfolded activity relying on a mentor to navigate an outdoor obstacle course, and a group activity of physically writing labels and attaching those labels to each other and then adding positive ones and removing negative ones, etc.  He also told me of the confidentiality agreement he was expected to sign before the weekend began.  His particular event was held in a remote desert lodge facility that was rented out for the week in Arizona.  They took away the attendees phones and any electronic devices and locked the gate at the road leading into the lodge. After a few days of attendance and in particular after the sweat lodge, Steve was so traumatized that he secretly packed his things and left in the middle of the night.  He had driven there himself in his truck, and had to leave by driving around the locked gate and through some ditches and underbrush to get back to the road to get out.  He called me in tears and it was clear how disturbed he was by the experience.  Steve himself ultimately committed suicide about two years later (for which there definitely were multiple triggers and factors, so I don't mean to imply JIM was entirely responsible, but I do believe it was one of many contributing factors, which included extreme rejection by his family).

Now, Matheson himself says that if BR continues to do any of the things that he mentions, they need to stop.  Mr. Levin indicates the longer version of BR still includes nudity.  Kllindley, if your experience with BR has been different or you'd like to confirm that the above things are no longer happening, I'd love for you to add context and see if/how things have changed.

This whole issue of David Matheson is dredging up so many old memories that I really care not to remember.  The stuff David was trying to get me to do was so upsetting and so not helpful.  Sorry, but I had no anger issues with my father, nor do I blame him for me being gay.  I also attended Evergreen for a couple of years.  Great group of guys.  But there was really no point except a bunch of guys that happened to be gay and be members of the church.  We would go on outings together.  Sometimes just to a ballgame.  Sometimes overnight trips.  Many of us also went to the annual conference in Salt Lake City.  

I liked connecting with guys dealing with similar issues even when at times inappropriate things occurred.  I remember one specific evening.  Jay, the leader of the group announced that he was leaving Evergreen because he was moving in with his boyfriend and needed to move on with his life.  One by one, each of the guys that had been attending decided that it was time for them to quit as well.  The Evergreen group in the Bay Area completely collapsed.  About 5 years later, an elderly couple contacted me and asked if I would help them restart the group.  I told them I would because I felt like it was healthy to know that these gay members of the church are not alone. It never got off the ground.  By then, I think that most guys felt it was ok being gay and didn't carry the shame that those had in the past.  

I still hear from some of the members of the group.  The friendships continued long after the group disbanded.  Only one person is still married to a woman.  

A couple of the guys that attended got into the whole Journey into Manhood thing.  They told me all about his weekends cuddling with other guys, running around naked and sitting in a sweat lodge.  As I recall, the weekends was pretty expensive.  It didn't interest me.  I never attended.  But what they described is very similar to the things that David Matheson talked about.  Honestly, it seemed like he loved going because he saw it as permission to hold someone of the same sex and be naked with a bunch of guys.  I didn't know it was supposed to be a secret.  I kind of suspected that they just wanted to do some of those activities of cuddling, being naked and the whole sweat lodge thing with me.  Seriously, none of this stuff is going to somehow make one "loose the gay".  It isn't therapy, it is exploitive.  I agree with David Matheson, it should stop.  

[Daniel2]

6 hours ago, kllindley said:

I think physical touch and in this case structured holding is perfectly healthy and healing.  Individuals are informed and reminded of their complete autonomy in deciding whether or not to participate in the process.  To characterize it as cuddling I think is disingenuous.  

 

The other retreat is Journey Beyond.  I have not attended Journey Beyond.  I have no intention of attending Journey Beyond because in prayerfully seeking to know what resources would be helpful, I have not felt any prompting to attend.  I am aware that there is a carefully structured experience containing nudity there.  I don't really have an opinion about the appropriateness of this exercise, because I don't know anything about the context or how it is run.  

 

I can't speak to what Matheson now thinks is so problematic.  As a trained therapist, I cannot think of anything that is problematic on the Journey into Manhood weekend. 

 

I have never heard of any Journey into Manhood weekend that has the sweat lodge.  Again, I can't speak for Journey Beyond.  However, please see my comment below about the ManKind Project.

 

There are two different events.  Neither have been renamed.  The renaming applies to the organization.  People Can Change is not Brother's Road.  Journey into Manhood is a Friday-Sunday retreat.  Journey Beyond is a much more in-depth, Wednesday through Sunday event.  Applicants to Journey Beyond are required to have done significant personal work, such as individual therapy and are more tightly screened to help prevent individuals who might be more vulnerable from experiencing harm.  

 

I don't think the confidentiality is at all about the effectiveness of any sort of sexual orientation change.  It has a lot more to do with emotional/experiential impact.  There is a legitimate argument that the experience is more impactful if experienced rather than intellectualized.  This is a common theme in therapy.  Emotions need to be felt not just talked about conceptually.  Some people are perfectly capable of experiencing things if they know about the process and what to expect.  Others have a lot of defensive mechanisms.  For these individuals knowing ahead of time makes remaining in the experience more difficult.  Is that sufficient justification for such strict confidentiality?  I can't speak for everyone, but I know that my experience was much more meaningful not knowing beforehand.  

I do wish the community would open up more about the specific processes that take place at JiM.  I don't think there is anything to be embarrassed about with individuals who are sincerely trying to be objective and seeking to understand.  I think that anything in the context of not completely affirming and embracing an LGBT identity will be mocked and twisted.  I think that many people are motivated to present these efforts in the worst possible light.  Considering that, I can understand a desire to keep things more secret, even if I ultimately disagree with the decision.   

 

Are you familiar with the ManKind Project?  They have a weekend retreat called the New Warrior Training Adventure.  This retreat is a major part of the mythopeotic men's movement and is held almost every weekend somewhere throughout the United States and outside the US as well.  The NWTA is heavily infused with Native American themes of initiation into mature manhood and finding one's personal mission.  The protocol of the Journey into Manhood weekend was modeled in part on the NWTA weekend.  MKP is explicitly affirming of all men and respectful of religious values as well as LGBT identity.  In fact there is a NWTA held regularly specifically for LGBT men.  I have not participated in the NWTA, although many of the men in the Brother's Road community have.  From their reports, the NWTA is actually more intense and confrontational than JiM.  It does include nudity and a Native American Sweat Lodge.  For many years, the protocol for the NWTA was also kept confidential.  Several years ago, the MKP leadership made the decision to make their protocol public.  Here is what I find ironic: I have never heard an opponent of the JiM weekend also criticize and condemn MKP and their NWTA weekend.  

The idea of recreating past traumatic experiences as a means to heal from them is the foundation of a non controversial technique of psychodrama or sociometry.  This is often performed in non-therapeutic settings.  This is in no way unique to JiM.  The MKP NWTA has as one of it's central points "GUTS work."  (There are strict guidelines for physical and emotional safety that are in place by experienced process leaders, such that actual trauma is not re-enacted, all participants are instructed in physical and emotional safety measures, including the freedom to pause or discontinue any activity. At JiM, these process leaders are required to have training - usually through MKP)  Nothing in this exercise is designed to have a specific content or theme, other than "wounds around men/masculinity."  So no one is prompted or instructed to find anger at their fathers.  If that is the primary wound a man identifies that he wants to work through, then sure.  But in my experience, for most it isn't.  

I have no experience with any exercise involving being led blindfolded.  Maybe a Journey Beyond  or NWTA thing? Also, I don't have any knowledge of any experience with an exercise involving labels.   A lot of what you are describing sounds more like a NWTA event than JiM.  At Journey into Manhood, participants are free to leave at any time.   Phones are never confiscated, though individuals are asked to leave them in their vehicles.  Further, I am pretty sure that Journey Beyond has only ever been held in Indiana.         

 

 

I appreciate the response, and want to add a bit more context for where I'm coming from, since I previously said I agree with everything that Matheson was now saying in his podcasts that you've chosen not to watch.

In the Podcast and video, Matheson does go into some detail about what he feels DID work and what he now believes doesn't.  He says that around 90% of his work was focused on healing the wounds of shame, self-hatred, and loathing created by cultural and internalized personal homophobia.  He explains that especially in the last 6 years or so, he abandoned conversation/reparative therapy standards and started focusing on standard therapeutic practices to help diminish shame and find healing.  He says that's what he means when he doesn't disavow all of the therapy he was conducting---he still feels those aspects of therapy are sound, and from what he says, I would agree with him.

While he still feels that sexuality is fluid to an unspecified (thus far, from what I've heard and read from him) degree, he says he never saw anyone change their sexual orientation, never saw anyone go from gay to straight, and indicates that bisexuality is where he saw the most sexual fluidity.  Further, he says that while he enjoyed a degree of intimacy with his wife over the 3 decades they were married, it was still challenging for him because he still always harbored attractions to men, despite numerous testimonials he gave saying he had overcome those feelings.

I'm still not quite sure I understand how he still currently claims that he's never seen anyone change their sexual orientation while simultaneously saying he was previously bisexual but now identifies exclusively as gay.  He hasn't articulated much on that point, and that's the one item that I wish I could ask him to clarify.

Apart from Matheson's words and therapeutic techniques, I wanted to also address a couple of other things that he didn't mention, but that have come up around our discussions of JIM and what I now know through you as Journey Beyond:  first, I also feel that touch is healing, and I am sure that structured touch to overcome past trauma can be an effective thing.  Physical intimacy itself can be very fulfilling, when expressed appropriately (mutually, consensually, in safe spaces, with no coercion or abuse).  Additionally, now as a gay man very comfortable with my self, my body, my attractions, and my desires, I have absolutely no problem with nudity with or around other men.  Since coming out as a gay man and having attended some personal gay-affirming retreats, I've actually participated in an all nude, non-sexual Native American Sweat lodge, and found the experience healing and wonderful.  I can understand and accept what you say about re-visiting past traumatic events can potentially be a healing thing.

My main concern with JIM/Journey Beyond is how those tools were employed--the context in which they were employed, and are often used by lay (non-professional-therapist) individuals or groups in trying to "overcome SSA."  Putting men who experience romantic and sexual attraction to other men, and who often experience a profound sense of self-loathing because of it, into situations where they are naked and experiencing touch with other men, has been and continues to be traumatic at least for some.  Imagine trying to alter a straight man's romantic and sexual attraction to women by surrounding him with the naked objects of his affection and encouraging him to hold/cuddle with them whether naked or clothed (I know you don't like the word cuddle and feel it doesn't apply to how you experienced it, but the term has been used by other therapists who are contemporaries of Matheson, as well, and others' experiences aren't the same as yours).  There's nothing wrong with basketball playing, either.... but participating in it as a means to change or alter one's sexual attractions is unrealistic and unhealthy.  Diminishing shame?  Sure, I can see how that can help, or even help feel more comfortable around other men, something that men "struggling against unwanted SSA" likely have a very unhealthy (in my mind, internalized homophobic) response.

When I experienced the Native American sweat lodge, for example, in a gay-affirming community post-coming out, it was all with the goal of helping me be OK with same-sex intimacy and physicality.  In my case, that helped me be OK with my attractions to men, not diminish them.  Now, MY experience is not unique but nor is it universal.  I understand and accept that Matheson's techniques helped him and others, such as yourself, in ways that they did not help me or Steve or others like him.  Matheson says he was personally unaware of how harmful they were for many years, but as he gradually started hearing more and more how damaging they were, he had to start making changes.  And he's acknowledged that although some of the therapeutic techniques were sound, that JIM is certainly grounded in the homophobic belief that homosexuality is a pathology that is unhealthy and needs to be controlled.

I AM glad to see at the end of the news piece above that Richard Wyler (co-founder of JIM) said in a statment to Channel 4 that JIM actually incorporated many (if not all?) of the changes that Matheson suggested.  I'd like to find out more about that statement and see it in full, and will share it if I find it.

Last thought: I am positive that Steve attended Journey Into Manhood, not the New Warrior program.  I could definitely be wrong about where it was at... it could very well have been Indiana, not Arizona... where it was held was a very minor detail in my discussion with Steve that night. 

[kllindley]

1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

I appreciate the response, and want to add a bit more context for where I'm coming from, since I previously said I agree with everything that Matheson was now saying in his podcasts that you've chosen not to watch.

In the Podcast and video, Matheson does go into some detail about what he feels DID work and what he now believes doesn't.  He says that around 90% of his work was focused on healing the wounds of shame, self-hatred, and loathing created by cultural and internalized personal homophobia.  He explains that especially in the last 6 years or so, he abandoned conversation/reparative therapy standards and started focusing on standard therapeutic practices to help diminish shame and find healing.  He says that's what he means when he doesn't disavow all of the therapy he was conducting---he still feels those aspects of therapy are sound, and from what he says, I would agree with him.

Interestingly, this is even primarily what Joseph Nicolosi, the father of Reparative Therapy, had moved to about 10 years ago.  It seems that they both came to believe that healing shame and helping individuals learn to experience their authentic emotions healthily went a long way toward helping these individuals find healing.  

Quote

While he still feels that sexuality is fluid to an unspecified (thus far, from what I've heard and read from him) degree, he says he never saw anyone change their sexual orientation, never saw anyone go from gay to straight, and indicates that bisexuality is where he saw the most sexual fluidity.  Further, he says that while he enjoyed a degree of intimacy with his wife over the 3 decades they were married, it was still challenging for him because he still always harbored attractions to men, despite numerous testimonials he gave saying he had overcome those feelings.

I also have never understood fluidity to mean a change from gay to straight.  I think any discussion of fluidity that doesn't acknowledge that is misleading.  Regarding his earlier claims that he he had completely overcome homosexual attractions, I expressed skepticism of that 10 years ago.  The fact that he now says he was lying then does not do much to help me believe his current spin on things.  It sounds like David Matheson says what he thinks people want to hear or that make him look good (to whatever audience he is playing to).

[kllindley]

Quote

others' experiences aren't the same as yours

I get that.  But if someone claimed that their experience in the Mormon Church is that every Sunday we swear allegiance to Joseph Smith and renounce Jesus Christ, I'm not going to grant that maybe they are right.  

Maybe it was unintentional, but the way you worded it above is just about as foreign as an ex-member claiming that we deny Jesus Christ and worship Joseph Smith.  It is just so far from the intention and context that it is unrecognizable.  I have never understood the intent of these processes or interventions to be to alter sexual attraction.  It was always about healing from past wounds, putting off shame, and gaining self-confidence.  

EDIT: I had to cut out your whole paragraph to get past the 403 error. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by kllindley

[kllindley]

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When I experienced the Native American sweat lodge, for example, in a gay-affirming community post-coming out, it was all with the goal of helping me be OK with same-sex intimacy and physicality.  In my case, that helped me be OK with my attractions to men, not diminish them.  Now, MY experience is not unique but nor is it universal.  I understand and accept that Matheson's techniques helped him and others, such as yourself, in ways that they did not help me or Steve or others like him.  Matheson says he was personally unaware of how harmful they were for many years, but as he gradually started hearing more and more how damaging they were, he had to start making changes.  And he's acknowledged that although some of the therapeutic techniques were sound, that JIM is certainly grounded in the homophobic belief that homosexuality is a pathology that is unhealthy and needs to be controlled.

Matheson can claim anything he wants to now about what JiM is grounded in.  I will be completely honest that I first attended JiM in 2008.  Maybe it was completely different before that.  But from my first introduction, the intent of JiM was never about changing sexual orientation.  People Can Change was explained way back then as having to do with lifestyle and behaviors not sexual attraction.  Since my very first introduction, JiM has been about affirming that each individual is good and valuable just as he is.  When people claim that it is about furthering self-loathing.  I just cannot wrap my head around how Matheson can now claim otherwise.  

 

Quote

I AM glad to see at the end of the news piece above that Richard Wyler (co-founder of JIM) said in a statment to Channel 4 that JIM actually incorporated many (if not all?) of the changes that Matheson suggested.  I'd like to find out more about that statement and see it in full, and will share it if I find it.

Last thought: I am positive that Steve attended Journey Into Manhood, not the New Warrior program.  I could definitely be wrong about where it was at... it could very well have been Indiana, not Arizona... where it was held was a very minor detail in my discussion with Steve that night. 

Would he have attended Journey into Manhood and then been happy enough to apply for Journey Beyond?  Journey Into Manhood was definitely held in Arizona, so that could have been it.  But like I said, maybe everything changed before 2008.  If that is the case, then I think that it is very disingenuous of Matheson, who would have still been in a primary leadership role , to act like he doesn't know if those changes were made.