Hype for April 2019 Conference

[Gray]

3 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

So Jesus was lying in Matthew 16:18?

"Matthew" putting words in Jesus' mouth. It would have been anachronistic for Jesus to have said it. Remember that the gospels are theological texts, not word for word transcripts from the life of Jesus.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Gray

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

Matthew is an anonymous author? Did he go to the Abinadi school of concealing your identity? I know you’re just relaying the information and others are making this claim but it just seems amusing some things scholars claim.

I think the point is there's nothing in the text suggesting that Matthew is the author. The text is labeled Matthew but nothing in the text suggests this. Contrast this with most of the Pauline epistles for instance. Typically the assignment of authorship is seen as late with the gospels with nothing internal to the texts suggesting authorship. 

 

[why me]

On 12/11/2018 at 12:38 AM, e-eye said:

 Looking forward to the changes to two hour church in a few weeks and spending more time teaching my family, learning together.  

 

The two hour block is interesting. However, I think that it is a disaster for singles. No family to fall back to. Just alone studying the scriptures and learning alone. And less fellowship from the branch or ward. And then the change in home teaching made it even worse for singles. No monthly visits on offer. Just a hope for a possible phone call. I do hope that any changes that may come will not be so family centered.

[why me]

On 12/12/2018 at 8:32 PM, smac97 said:

DCP has literally spend decades engaging critics and oponents of the Church.  A lot.  In many different venues and media.  And he has done so by providing substantive ideas and arguments and reasoning and analysis and data.

 

Thanks,

-Smac

Dan did wonderful work and he helped many stay in the church by his posts on the fairmormon site. And he took a great deal of abuse for it from the critics. I never saw a poster experience the abuse that he received from the critics. Dan should receive the medal of honor of apologetics. 

[why me]

Big changes are coming. The world is changing so quickly that the lds church will need to confront the changing tides. It cannot remain motionless as the world moves at quicker paces. The members will need a church that is again revolutionary as it was during Nauvoo times. Also, members need more guidance. Programs will be put in place for this to happen.

[hope_for_things]

3 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

So Jesus was lying in Matthew 16:18?

Here is some interesting LDS commentary from the Ensign on the subject.  What is meant by the word "church" in that passage.  There is also a lot of commentary about this verse from non-LDS sources, but it was nice to find a correlated LDS source that shows the original meaning of this word was not understood in the same sense that you're using it as a formalized institution.  

Quote

The Greek word used to denote church in Matthew 16:18 is ecclesia, which literally means a “calling out” and originally referred to a civil assembly. Thus Jesus’ use of the phrase “my church” referred to an assembly “called” by him.

In the present dispensation, the Lord used church in this same sense. He revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith that “whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. …

“Behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.” (D&C 10:67, 69.)

In these instances the “church” is not so much an institution as it is a group of individuals who repent, come unto Christ through the ordinances of the gospel, and endure in faith to the end. Upon them the adversary has no claim.

Thus Matthew 16:18–19 does not relate to the continuity of the relationship between Christ and his church organization in time. Instead, the passage refers to the protective and saving bond between Christ and repentant sinners—his sons and daughters—now and throughout eternity. [Matt 16:18–19] (See Mosiah 27:24–29; D&C 138:23.)

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/08/i-have-a-question/what-did-jesus-mean-when-he-said-that-the-gates-of-hell-shall-not-prevail-against-my-church?lang=eng

[Avatar4321]

20 minutes ago, why me said:

The two hour block is interesting. However, I think that it is a disaster for singles. No family to fall back to. Just alone studying the scriptures and learning alone. And less fellowship from the branch or ward. And then the change in home teaching made it even worse for singles. No monthly visits on offer. Just a hope for a possible phone call. I do hope that any changes that may come will not be so family centered.

Oh ye of little faith

[Avatar4321]

10 minutes ago, why me said:

Big changes are coming. The world is changing so quickly that the lds church will need to confront the changing tides. It cannot remain motionless as the world moves at quicker paces. The members will need a church that is again revolutionary as it was during Nauvoo times. Also, members need more guidance. Programs will be put in place for this to happen.

The home centered church supported system is designed to get us more guidance and more importantly show us how to get it on our own 

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

It was nice to find a correlated LDS source that shows the original meaning of this word was not understood in the same sense that you're using it as a formalized institution.  

The Restored Church was not terribly formalised in the beginning either. What it and the primitive church both have/had in common, however, is/was the presence of prophets/apostles from the beginning.

[Hamba Tuhan]

24 minutes ago, why me said:

The two hour block is interesting. However, I think that it is a disaster for singles. No family to fall back to. Just alone studying the scriptures and learning alone.

I'm single. I'm not seeing the disaster. My housemate and I have already formulated a plan for weekly study (since we both work irregular hours) and just finished our second session this past Tuesday evening. Our stake presidency have just concluded speaking in all of the wards, urging those who are assigned to minister to singles to make sure they have suitable plans in place. This can, of course, include inviting them into our homes -- something my housemate and I plan to do in the new year when we start the formal curriculum.

Quote

And then the change in home teaching made it even worse for singles. No monthly visits on offer.

I still visit those I'm assigned to minister to monthly (or very close to it). I also still receive monthly (or close to it) visits from my ministering brothers, though our last 'visit' consisted of the three of us going out for dinner at a fantastic buffet together (my request). We also invited some other single males to join us, and we played cards as we ate -- a great night and just what I needed!

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

"Matthew" putting words in Jesus' mouth. It would have been anachronistic for Jesus to have said it. Remember that the gospels are theological texts, not word for word transcripts from the life of Jesus.

But you can use that argument for anything. You can argue that Jesus never taught baptism and that all the references to it were added after the fact or just about anything in there.

[The Nehor]

54 minutes ago, why me said:

The two hour block is interesting. However, I think that it is a disaster for singles. No family to fall back to. Just alone studying the scriptures and learning alone. And less fellowship from the branch or ward. And then the change in home teaching made it even worse for singles. No monthly visits on offer. Just a hope for a possible phone call. I do hope that any changes that may come will not be so family centered.

We second-class citizens of the Kingdom of God will try to cope and/or fall away as we always have.

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

But you can use that argument for anything. You can argue that Jesus never taught baptism and that all the references to it were added after the fact or just about anything in there.

Yeah, it's a very useful approach. Once one gets started, everything s/he dislikes was never really spoken by Jesus.

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We second-class citizens of the Kingdom of God will try to cope and/or fall away as we always have.

You're the wrong gender to fall away. Where I live, at least, single males stay active; single females don't.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yeah, it's a very useful approach. Once one gets started, everything s/he dislikes was never really spoken by Jesus.

To be fair though I do a bit of the same thing. There are parts of the Bible I reject. I like to think that is the Spirit guiding me but I am not 100% on that all the time.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

You're the wrong gender to fall away. Where I live, at least, single males stay active; single females don't.

So on my date tomorrow I should point out that if she rejects me it may cost her eternal life?  

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So on my date tomorrow I should point out that if she rejects me it may cost her eternal life?  

Yeah, and let us know how that goes ...

True story: We had a divorcee with a child move into our stake a few years ago. I got to know her a bit and then asked her out. In the car before we'd even got anywhere, she said, 'Just so you know, this is not going anywhere. You're far too churchy for me'. 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Duncan]

For those who don't think the early Christian community was an organized church how do you interpret 1 Corinthians  which was written in the early 50's and has several mentions of "Church"  and mentions Churches being organized in Galatia and Corinth and how Saul persecuted "The Church of God" if all these mentions aren't actually churches, then why would Paul mention it and how do we today know better than Paul did when he wrote it in the early 50's? what has come forth that says there was no organized Church and if so why write all these Epistles and why write anything if no one is going to read it?

[SouthernMo]

54 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Oh ye of little faith

Faith is a gift. 1 Corinthians 12:9

I don’t think it’s helpful to criticize people for not having the gifts you might have.

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The Restored Church was not terribly formalised in the beginning either. What it and the primitive church both have/had in common, however, is/was the presence of prophets/apostles from the beginning.

This is a perfect example of moving the goal posts.  

Also, I can’t think of any scriptures that say  you should be looking for a group of people that have apostles and prophets and that’s how you’ll know you’re on the right path in life.  

[Duncan]

22 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

This is a perfect example of moving the goal posts.  

Also, I can’t think of any scriptures that say  you should be looking for a group of people that have apostles and prophets and that’s how you’ll know you’re on the right path in life.  

well, I can 1 Cor. 12:28, if God put Apostles and Prophets in the Church and the body of Christ (verse 27)

[Gray]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

But you can use that argument for anything. You can argue that Jesus never taught baptism and that all the references to it were added after the fact or just about anything in there.

No, it's not just used for anything. That's not how historical Jesus studies works. There are actual rules to this stuff.

We know Jesus was a disciple of John and that John baptized in Jordan. So it wouldn't be out of place for Jesus to preach baptism as well, although his focus was different than John's.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Gray

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yeah, it's a very useful approach. Once one gets started, everything s/he dislikes was never really spoken by Jesus.

Good thing you're not a historian or anything, right Hamba?

Edited December 14, 2018 by Gray

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

For those who don't think the early Christian community was an organized church how do you interpret 1 Corinthians  which was written in the early 50's and has several mentions of "Church"  and mentions Churches being organized in Galatia and Corinth and how Saul persecuted "The Church of God" if all these mentions aren't actually churches, then why would Paul mention it and how do we today know better than Paul did when he wrote it in the early 50's? what has come forth that says there was no organized Church and if so why write all these Epistles and why write anything if no one is going to read it?

The christian community was organized in churches in the 50s. But that's after the time of Jesus.

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yeah, and let us know how that goes ...

True story: We had a divorcee with a child move into our stake a few years ago. I got to know her a bit and then asked her out. In the car before we'd even got anywhere, she said, 'Just so you know, this is not going anywhere. You're far too churchy for me'. 

Wow. Then why bother saying yes?