changed Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, pogi said: I don't like this linear graph at all. It suggests that a less-literal believer is simply on his way to becoming a "secular participant" and that he is not a "true" believer at all. It suggests that the only way to become a less-literal believer is to pass through some sort of spiritual trauma. It doesn't have to be trauma that leads one to be less-literal, it can also happen because of a spiritual experience which deepens belief and conviction. I am much less literal today than I was 20 years ago. But my belief and commitment is stronger than ever. I definitely consider myself a "true" believer, much more than I was anyway. I agree, I do not like that graph at all either. That graph came from https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/documents/faith_crisis_study/Faith_Crisis_Report_R24B.pdf?fbclid=IwAR25l_BL1dyKfb_rwZLp_1DjUBDWMZoRV9vQGEtKnILmI8-5qCqi-GtwCdk I found the statement on pg 45 sad "Members who pass through the Traumatized Believer stage tend to never return to the True Believer stage." ?? Is this the case for those who leave the LDS faith? John D. is now atheist, said most who leave become atheists in the end - this is not the case for those who go through faith crisis from other religious backgrounds. When looking at other models of faith progression, this is beautiful: http://www.thebattleofarmageddon.com/stages_of_faith.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2PC3LdZx3mptroIvzhF_jSKWkohmPfJHnGy6JD4eCD-LL7ECw-RxDoaJs At least in the above the crisis does not have to lead to a loss in belief, it can actually lead to higher stages and increased testimony. Another progressive model: Are members of the LDS faith allowed / encouraged to progress into individual or universal stages? perhaps this is one of the big problems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_W._Fowler In other faiths, the "Dark night of the soul" is the death before a re-birth. Does anything in the LDs church talk about "losing yourself to find yourself".... "losing your faith to then find it" as other religious groups do? Edited October 31, 2018 by changed
rockpond Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 2 hours ago, CV75 said: This is interesting because I consider non-literal belief to be part of a greater spirituality (and very non-secular); in other words, an attribute of a “true believer.” Semantics perhaps. Who put this diagram together, and what is their paradigm? Not that I’m the most spiritual person, and I can’t think of anything more tedious and stultifying than being a secular participant in what the Church has to offer, but I consider myself to be a non-literal believer and a “true believer” in that I’m really trying to be a better disciple. People have lots of reasons for keeping their opposition to the Brethren's teaching to themselves; I think the better ones (i.e. the more altruistic and charitable reasons) can help someone become a better member over time and resolve their views. I agree with what you’ve written here. Perhaps the paradigm of the person who created the diagram is that a true believer is someone who is “orthodox” to mainstream LDS beliefs AND a literal believer.
rockpond Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 2 hours ago, CV75 said: What is wrong with being accused of apostasy? If it is true, embrace it; if it is not, take the high road knowing the Lord is with you in eh integrity of your heart. I once had a stake president treat me and speak to me according to some misinformation he believed. This was during an interview for various callings he had in mind. I told him I can only function as the Lord's servant in an environment of trust, and if he couldn't trust me, don't call me to any of them. I also asked him what he wanted to know about my character, and what specific questions he had (he didn't offer any at that point). I felt the Lord with me and supporting me more than I would have had I been on his good side! and it felt really, really good. I don't (and didn't) see his flaws as hurting me or anyone else; the stake ran just fine. All true and I am good with my relationship with the Lord. But if a stake president is going to use my beliefs as a reason to take away my recommend, that becomes problematic for me (for reasons I assume are obvious).
Navidad Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 7 hours ago, rockpond said: All true and I am good with my relationship with the Lord. But if a stake president is going to use my beliefs as a reason to take away my recommend, that becomes problematic for me (for reasons I assume are obvious). Isn't being accused of apostasy a terrible thing? Maybe I don't understand its use in LDS culture? For years you were first accused of blasphemy and then apostasy. It was the worst thing that could happen to a Christian? Is it now modified down in a LDS sense? I am simply surprised someone could ask "What is wrong with being accused of apostasy?" I can't think of a worse word.
rockpond Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Navidad said: Isn't being accused of apostasy a terrible thing? Maybe I don't understand its use in LDS culture? For years you were first accused of blasphemy and then apostasy. It was the worst thing that could happen to a Christian? Is it now modified down in a LDS sense? I am simply surprised someone could ask "What is wrong with being accused of apostasy?" I can't think of a worse word. Yes, it’s a fairly bad thing.
stemelbow Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 14 hours ago, pogi said: I would respond that this "dream" type of vision is actually supported by the Pearl of Great Price. Hey Pogi, thanks for the response. I agree with you and I do recall you making this point before. 14 hours ago, pogi said: This sounds to me like his vision left the temporal realm and entered the spiritual in a type of dream/vision. Very much agree. But every time I've mused on this topic in front of members I've been told I lack faith. 14 hours ago, pogi said: This doesn't sound empty at all to me. I think Ballard recognizes this knee-jerk reaction of some Latter-day Saints to treat a questioner with suspicion, but isn't that precisely why he brought it up - to try and put an end to it? Sure he did. My point is saying it feels empty due to my experience that no matter who ends up discussing these things with me, the response has always included much suspicion. I don't know what it'd be like if I was to sit down with Ballard and express my feelings and thoughts about the Church. But I'm guessing it wouldn't be easy and sweet. 14 hours ago, pogi said: Read what bluebell posted: In what way is that empty? Are you suggesting that he wasn't being sincere, or that he didn't really mean it? I don't see this as empty at all. I sounds genuine to me, as if he really, really wants it to stop. And thus his counsel to stop it. I think I've said pretty clearly why it feels empty. I've seen it over and over again. I'm sure he's being sincere. But that doesn't take away what it feels like.
stemelbow Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 14 hours ago, changed said: I think not only should someone not be made to feel lesser for asking honest questions, but "cafeteria members" should be welcomed and appreciated for their honesty. Faith is a journey, no one is going to have a 100% testimony in 100% of all the doctrines from their 8yo B-day. Allow everyone to be honest with where they are, support them into higher stages of testimony - just a natural progression, nothing to be alarmed about. I agree. Unfortunately I doubt this will ever be near the norm within Mormonism. There is far too much suspicion and desire to accuse the wolf in sheep's clothing.
Navidad Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 8 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I agree. Unfortunately I doubt this will ever be near the norm within Mormonism. There is far too much suspicion and desire to accuse the wolf in sheep's clothing. I am wondering if there are indeed any distinctive beliefs in Mormonisms that are not considered essential? For example in my faith Mennonitism, we have foot washing, a belief in peace, conflict resolution, some women wear head coverings (all used to), we have a list of worldly no-nos, etc. These are distinctive Mennonite beliefs and are important to many of us, but are not considered essential for salvation, sanctification (maybe some of the worldly stuff), etc. Are there similar beliefs in Mormonis or is every thing a LDS Christian believes considered essential?
LittleNipper Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Anakin7 said: Question to LittleNipper, where do you go to worship God besides your heart and mind ?. Do you have a Church you attend ?.thanks. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 12 hours ago, changed said: I agree, I do not like that graph at all either. That graph came from https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/documents/faith_crisis_study/Faith_Crisis_Report_R24B.pdf?fbclid=IwAR25l_BL1dyKfb_rwZLp_1DjUBDWMZoRV9vQGEtKnILmI8-5qCqi-GtwCdk I found the statement on pg 45 sad "Members who pass through the Traumatized Believer stage tend to never return to the True Believer stage." ?? Is this the case for those who leave the LDS faith? John D. is now atheist, said most who leave become atheists in the end - this is not the case for those who go through faith crisis from other religious backgrounds. When looking at other models of faith progression, this is beautiful: http://www.thebattleofarmageddon.com/stages_of_faith.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2PC3LdZx3mptroIvzhF_jSKWkohmPfJHnGy6JD4eCD-LL7ECw-RxDoaJs At least in the above the crisis does not have to lead to a loss in belief, it can actually lead to higher stages and increased testimony. Another progressive model: Are members of the LDS faith allowed / encouraged to progress into individual or universal stages? perhaps this is one of the big problems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_W._Fowler In other faiths, the "Dark night of the soul" is the death before a re-birth. Does anything in the LDs church talk about "losing yourself to find yourself".... "losing your faith to then find it" as other religious groups do? I believe that Mormonism is it's own worst enemy ---- made up mostly of conjecture and lacking a solid Biblical foundation. Mormons do not fully trust the Bible or what evangelicals have to say on its behalf and yet fully accept the Book of Mormon, which in fact cannot be verified through any form of investigation, archaeological or scientific. The man raised Mormon who turns against Mormonism sees Evangelicals as simply another group of "quacks". So unless such an individual has had "Christian" friends or other acquaintances this one simply shuts off "RELIGION". Mormons criticize "Christian" pastors for being "paid" for leading their congregations and so the uninformed already have an unhealthy suspicion of "Christian" ministries... If one leaves the Mormon "church" where can they go? This often is the case with Roman Catholics who may come to see the church organization as hiding issues and they generally lack any real Bible study. This has changed in recent times but only it would seem to not be outdone by most "Protestant" denominations. It goes without saying that it were Fundamentalist groups who had very high misgivings when the opening Bible reading was removed from public schools. The Catholic church and Jehovah Witnesses remained decidedly silent. They didn't benefit from an open scripture it would seem... Edited October 31, 2018 by LittleNipper
JLHPROF Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 16 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: Mormons do not fully trust the Bible or what evangelicals have to say on its behalf and yet fully accept the Book of Mormon, which in fact cannot be verified through any form of investigation, archaeological or scientific. The man raised Mormon who turns against Mormonism sees Evangelicals as simply another group of "quacks". So unless such an individual has had "Christian" friends or other acquaintances this one simply shuts off "RELIGION". True on all counts. If I were to apostatise from Mormonism and lose my testimony I don't think I'd be able to replace it with an alternative doctrinal belief system. Mormonism is the only one that makes any sense to me. If I no longer believed I couldn't embrace a religion that makes no sense to me.
JLHPROF Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 11 hours ago, changed said: In other faiths, the "Dark night of the soul" is the death before a re-birth. Does anything in the LDs church talk about "losing yourself to find yourself".... "losing your faith to then find it" as other religious groups do? Yes. The idea that we must be tried and sacrifice in all things, reach a lowest point to where we rely on God is well established in numerous prophetic teachings and scriptural interpretation within Mormonism. The quote in my signature is just one. 1
CV75 Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 12 hours ago, rockpond said: All true and I am good with my relationship with the Lord. But if a stake president is going to use my beliefs as a reason to take away my recommend, that becomes problematic for me (for reasons I assume are obvious). I think we can transcend that by remembering that our religious relationship (and our beliefs and our temple recommend answers) is first and foremost between us and the Lord. I have found great solace from Him in being misunderstood, misperceived and mischaracterized from time to time, or alone, or suffering privately (yes i know we are taught to not suffer alone, but in this case I had to! ). Maybe my history of having to keep my faith private from family members for 5 years before joining the Church helped me develop that conclusion. The Lord was with me during that period even without the benefits of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. I tend to avoid discussions about coaching and strategies to answer temple recommend questions, and the integrity, the paradigms, morality, ethics, etc. involved because I consider the interview to be between the individual and the Lord, and the judgement or decision between the interviewer and the Lord.
changed Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: I believe that Mormonism is it's own worst enemy ---- made up mostly of conjecture and lacking a solid Biblical foundation. Mormons do not fully trust the Bible or what evangelicals have to say on its behalf and yet fully accept the Book of Mormon, which in fact cannot be verified through any form of investigation, archaeological or scientific. The man raised Mormon who turns against Mormonism sees Evangelicals as simply another group of "quacks". So unless such an individual has had "Christian" friends or other acquaintances this one simply shuts off "RELIGION". Mormons criticize "Christian" pastors for being "paid" for leading their congregations and so the uninformed already have an unhealthy suspicion of "Christian" ministries... If one leaves the Mormon "church" where can they go? This often is the case with Roman Catholics who may come to see the church organization as hiding issues and they generally lack any real Bible study. This has changed in recent times but only it would seem to not be outdone by most "Protestant" denominations. It goes without saying that it were Fundamentalist groups who had very high misgivings when the opening Bible reading was removed from public schools. The Catholic church and Jehovah Witnesses remained decidedly silent. They didn't benefit from an open scripture it would seem... Faith in God, worshiping God, vs. faith in a church and worshiping a church. I do think those who put God #1 and see the church as a support rather than a gateway, can go through faith crisis without losing spirituality more easily. I should also note - stages in religious views and overall general stages in life - Relying on authority figures is the lowest level on the Perry scheme ...authority figures could be a prophet, could be any PhD - author etc. etc. dualism vs. more mature outlook in life.... some rely on dualism and authority figures their entire life ... 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Yes. The idea that we must be tried and sacrifice in all things, reach a lowest point to where we rely on God is well established in numerous prophetic teachings and scriptural interpretation within Mormonism. The quote in my signature is just one. I think you and I are defining "low point" differently. Does your "low point" include losing faith in God? ... I think rock bottom involves letting go of everything, including religious beliefs - to completely start from scratch - and build a new foundation, a new outlook, a new set of beliefs that are completely dissected from upbringing//culture/grooming → to making decisions based on a combination of multiple resources, research, data, and personal conscience (rather than trying to please others, adhering to social norms etc.). Edited October 31, 2018 by changed
Tacenda Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 4 hours ago, Navidad said: I am wondering if there are indeed any distinctive beliefs in Mormonisms that are not considered essential? For example in my faith Mennonitism, we have foot washing, a belief in peace, conflict resolution, some women wear head coverings (all used to), we have a list of worldly no-nos, etc. These are distinctive Mennonite beliefs and are important to many of us, but are not considered essential for salvation, sanctification (maybe some of the worldly stuff), etc. Are there similar beliefs in Mormonis or is every thing a LDS Christian believes considered essential? I would say the only ones would be, taking the Sacrament and attending the temple to perform temple ordinances. That's about it, IMO.
rockpond Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 1 hour ago, CV75 said: I think we can transcend that by remembering that our religious relationship (and our beliefs and our temple recommend answers) is first and foremost between us and the Lord. I have found great solace from Him in being misunderstood, misperceived and mischaracterized from time to time, or alone, or suffering privately (yes i know we are taught to not suffer alone, but in this case I had to! ). Maybe my history of having to keep my faith private from family members for 5 years before joining the Church helped me develop that conclusion. The Lord was with me during that period even without the benefits of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. I tend to avoid discussions about coaching and strategies to answer temple recommend questions, and the integrity, the paradigms, morality, ethics, etc. involved because I consider the interview to be between the individual and the Lord, and the judgement or decision between the interviewer and the Lord. I could "transcend" the SP telling me I can't have a recommend due to my beliefs if it weren't for my family members... I have a wife who wants me to join her in the temple. I have four kids who may be married in the temple (and I'd like to be there). I have 36 nieces and nephews who may also want their uncle at their temple sealing.
CV75 Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 1 hour ago, rockpond said: I could "transcend" the SP telling me I can't have a recommend due to my beliefs if it weren't for my family members... I have a wife who wants me to join her in the temple. I have four kids who may be married in the temple (and I'd like to be there). I have 36 nieces and nephews who may also want their uncle at their temple sealing. The choices we have to make between us and the Lord can be severely difficult. This is why some people don't confess sin, so as not to upset family members with the consequences. I'm not suggesting that sin and beliefs are necessarily the same thing, just that the dynamics you describe are the same. In either case, if we feel the Lord is with us, we can deal with just about anything and actually rejoice in at least that one point (God's love).
JLHPROF Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 7 hours ago, changed said: Faith in God, worshiping God, vs. faith in a church and worshiping a church. I do think those who put God #1 and see the church as a support rather than a gateway, can go through faith crisis without losing spirituality more easily. I should also note - stages in religious views and overall general stages in life - Relying on authority figures is the lowest level on the Perry scheme ...authority figures could be a prophet, could be any PhD - author etc. etc. dualism vs. more mature outlook in life.... some rely on dualism and authority figures their entire life ... I think you and I are defining "low point" differently. Does your "low point" include losing faith in God? ... I think rock bottom involves letting go of everything, including religious beliefs - to completely start from scratch - and build a new foundation, a new outlook, a new set of beliefs that are completely dissected from upbringing//culture/grooming → to making decisions based on a combination of multiple resources, research, data, and personal conscience (rather than trying to please others, adhering to social norms etc.). My "low point" is having your faith tested to the point where losing faith in God requires no effort but keeping it requires supreme effort. Faith IS a choice. It's a decision, one that has to keep being made. What you describe as "letting go" is ceasing the effort. What you describe as the sources of the new building blocks are relying on one set of men instead of another. What you call a low point, rock bottom, is not a necessary step for anyone. It's a decision.
changed Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 19 hours ago, JLHPROF said: My "low point" is having your faith tested to the point where losing faith in God requires no effort but keeping it requires supreme effort. Faith IS a choice. It's a decision, one that has to keep being made. What you describe as "letting go" is ceasing the effort. What you describe as the sources of the new building blocks are relying on one set of men instead of another. What you call a low point, rock bottom, is not a necessary step for anyone. It's a decision. Spiritual death... physical death... rebirth... Do you believe Jesus died both spiritually and physically, or do you think he just partially died - just physically, but not spiritually? Why do you think the savior's death was needed?
Calm Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 Spiritual death is separation from God. He did experience that on the cross, I believe. Necessary to descend below all things, Imo; to comprehend all things. Quote And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 1
changed Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 11 minutes ago, Calm said: Spiritual death is separation from God. He did experience that on the cross, I believe. Necessary to descend below all things, Imo; to comprehend all things. Do you believe all of us will also experience both deaths?
JLHPROF Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 1 hour ago, changed said: Do you believe all of us will also experience both deaths? Yes, in some form. D&C 121:1 O God, where art thou? And where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place?2 How long shall thy hand be stayed, and thine eye, yea thy pure eye, behold from the eternal heavens the wrongs of thy people and of thy servants, and thine ear be penetrated with their cries? 1
Calm Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, changed said: Do you believe all of us will also experience both deaths? What JLH said... I think we all need to know what it is like to be fully separated from God so it can be a fully informed choice to be one with him...or not. Edited November 1, 2018 by Calm
changed Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Yes, in some form. D&C 121:1 O God, where art thou? And where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place?2 How long shall thy hand be stayed, and thine eye, yea thy pure eye, behold from the eternal heavens the wrongs of thy people and of thy servants, and thine ear be penetrated with their cries? 12 minutes ago, Calm said: What JLH said... I think we all need to know what it is like to be fully separated from God so it can be a fully informed choice to be one with him...or not. So becoming an atheist might be part of the journey? "No one should be accused of lacking faith because they have questions" - perhaps is better stated as "No one should be eternally condemned in anyone's eyes for lacking faith because they have questions"...
Calm Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 15 minutes ago, changed said: So becoming an atheist might be part of the journey? "No one should be accused of lacking faith because they have questions" - perhaps is better stated as "No one should be eternally condemned in anyone's eyes for lacking faith because they have questions"... Have no problem with this. 1
bluebell Posted November 1, 2018 Author Posted November 1, 2018 34 minutes ago, changed said: So becoming an atheist might be part of the journey? I think it can be sometimes. 1
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