Avatar4321 Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, juliann said: And those women are the General Board. And you heard from them. and you are upset that you heard more from the living oracles
Avatar4321 Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, rockpond said: Not at all what we are saying. Quite the opposite, in fact. We ALL need to hear the voices of the sisters as well as the voices of the brothers. No. we need to hear the voice of the Lord 2
ksfisher Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 27 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: I think you mistake the role of prophets and apostles - they are not necessarily holy men. They have been called to serve Christ's church. Just curious - do you think holy men always make great administrators? Do think the church leadership has need of good administrators? If so, why wouldn't some apostles be called for their administrative skills first rather than their holiness? I believe that worthiness is the main qualifier to be a witness of Christ. Do they need to be good at working with people, yes. Capable administrators qualified to run a global church, yes. But first and foremost they need to be examples of righteous living.
rockpond Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: The only perspective I listen for at Conference is God’s perspective. Just now, Avatar4321 said: No. we need to hear the voice of the Lord Whether it is God's perspective or the voice of the Lord, we're getting it filtered through the thoughts, experience, and viewpoint of men. I'm just saying that I believe we'd also benefit from more of it being filtered through the thoughts, experience, and viewpoint of women. Remember... "We know that the relationships, identities, and functions of men and women are essential to accomplish God’s great plan." 1
Avatar4321 Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 Just now, rockpond said: Whether it is God's perspective or the voice of the Lord, we're getting it filtered through the thoughts, experience, and viewpoint of men. I'm just saying that I believe we'd also benefit from more of it being filtered through the thoughts, experience, and viewpoint of women. Remember... "We know that the relationships, identities, and functions of men and women are essential to accomplish God’s great plan." How about we just stop complaining and get it filtered through the Holy Ghost
rockpond Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: How about we just stop complaining and get it filtered through the Holy Ghost Is there a reason you seem defensive about this? Is it important to you that more men speak than women? For me, the Holy Ghost can testify of a message delivered by a woman just the same as a message delivered by a man. 1
juliann Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 57 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: And you heard from them. and you are upset that you heard more from the living oracles False dichotomy. Shame on you for not seeing called and appointed women as "living oracles." 1
Storm Rider Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 1 hour ago, ksfisher said: I believe that worthiness is the main qualifier to be a witness of Christ. Do they need to be good at working with people, yes. Capable administrators qualified to run a global church, yes. But first and foremost they need to be examples of righteous living. To me, there is a distinction between a righteous man and a holy man or individual.
OnceWasMormon Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: I think you mistake the role of prophets and apostles - they are not necessarily holy men. They have been called to serve Christ's church. Just curious - do you think holy men always make great administrators? Do think the church leadership has need of good administrators? If so, why wouldn't some apostles be called for their administrative skills first rather than their holiness? I think many members of the Chuch have an idealistic concept of what or who leaders actually are. I understand how difficult it is to learn that they are just men when we put them on such high pedestals. Note - we put them on such high pedestals. Who is responsible for doing so? We are and we are to blame for our own desires to make them perfect, holy men. I think some prophets and apostles have been holy men in the same way that I have met many holy people who are not apostles and prophets. I see what you are saying. Perhaps 'administrator' may not have been the best word to use due to the connotations that word has with the cold and self-serving/aggrandising characters of business leaders. In a roundabout way, you have polarised the point I have been endeavouring to make i.e. the misinterpretation of 'revelation' by 'men'; misinterpretation that simply should not exist due to the concise, explicit manner in which God surely relays His desires to those expressly appointed to communicate His desires. The prophet is effectively, when all is said and done, the CEO of The Church. If HE gets it wrong, he leads the membership into confusion. Surely God would not allow this to happen.
Storm Rider Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 17 minutes ago, OnceWasMormon said: I see what you are saying. Perhaps 'administrator' may not have been the best word to use due to the connotations that word has with the cold and self-serving/aggrandising characters of business leaders. In a roundabout way, you have polarised the point I have been endeavouring to make i.e. the misinterpretation of 'revelation' by 'men'; misinterpretation that simply should not exist due to the concise, explicit manner in which God surely relays His desires to those expressly appointed to communicate His desires. The prophet is effectively, when all is said and done, the CEO of The Church. If HE gets it wrong, he leads the membership into confusion. Surely God would not allow this to happen. Every time, I believe, that things have gone "wrong" to us in our day reviewing the past, it was done without any claim of revelation. A policy change was made and that was that. If we made your assumptions a prophet would always speak as a prophet. He would necessarily forfeit his humanity and become something greater than human. I reject this kind of assumption as being unrealistic and naive. Men will always be human whether they are holy, righteous, or called as prophets.
OnceWasMormon Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Storm Rider said: I think you mistake the role of prophets and apostles - they are not necessarily holy men. They have been called to serve Christ's church. Just curious - do you think holy men always make great administrators? Do think the church leadership has need of good administrators? If so, why wouldn't some apostles be called for their administrative skills first rather than their holiness? I think many members of the Chuch have an idealistic concept of what or who leaders actually are. I understand how difficult it is to learn that they are just men when we put them on such high pedestals. Note - we put them on such high pedestals. Who is responsible for doing so? We are and we are to blame for our own desires to make them perfect, holy men. I think some prophets and apostles have been holy men in the same way that I have met many holy people who are not apostles and prophets. An interesting view. I cannot disagree with your comment that the membership has put the prophet and the apostles on pedestals. However, this is incidental to the focus of this particular matter. I don't know if the missionaries still employ 'the discussions' in the form that was in place up until late last century, but as I recall the first 'discussion' focussed on 'prophets' and how God uses them as conduits through which His desires are made known to Man. Both explicitly and implicitly, prospective members were impressed with the basic concept that The Prophet is indeed the only representative of God 'on the earth today'. If one became a member, it was with full knowledge and utter acceptance that the serving prophet was to be venerated as a man of exemplary faith, righteousness, and humanity. Under such a circumstance, what view could result, in the minds of His sheep, that The Prophet is MORE than 'a man'. Thus, in fairness, The Church itself bears prime responsibility, at least up until the latter part of the 20th century, for the 'delusion' among the membership that the prophet is to be venerated.
ksfisher Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 54 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: To me, there is a distinction between a righteous man and a holy man or individual. How so? I would use the words almost interchangeably.
Storm Rider Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, OnceWasMormon said: An interesting view. I cannot disagree with your comment that the membership has put the prophet and the apostles on pedestals. However, this is incidental to the focus of this particular matter. I don't know if the missionaries still employ 'the discussions' in the form that was in place up until late last century, but as I recall the first 'discussion' focussed on 'prophets' and how God uses them as conduits through which His desires are made known to Man. Both explicitly and implicitly, prospective members were impressed with the basic concept that The Prophet is indeed the only representative of God 'on the earth today'. If one became a member, it was with full knowledge and utter acceptance that the serving prophet was to be venerated as a man of exemplary faith, righteousness, and humanity. Under such a circumstance, what view could result, in the minds of His sheep, that The Prophet is MORE than 'a man'. Thus, in fairness, The Church itself bears prime responsibility, at least up until the latter part of the 20th century, for the 'delusion' among the membership that the prophet is to be venerated. This feels more like forcing it to meet your personal issue or agenda than a real systemic problem. I don't know how they teach discussions today - I have reviewed the Preach My Gospel manual, but I just don't remember the order of the lessons. However, I know that we do continue to teach that same organization that existed in ancient times exists today consisting of prophets and apostles. I don't think there is any attempt to identify them as anything more than as they were anciently. Those same ancient apostles and prophets that denied the Christ, that argued with one another, and remained human while Christ was on the earth and after he returned to his Father. Perspective is everything. You seem to remain in one position in order to maintain your perspective. It may not be nearly as big as big a problem as you think. It may not be a problem at all. 1
Storm Rider Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, ksfisher said: How so? I would use the words almost interchangeably. For me, when I think of a righteous individual I think of one that is relatively successful in keeping the commandments of God. When I think of someone as being holy they have exceeded the vast majority of humans attempts to keep the commandments - they are filled with the Holy Spirit and are a source of inspiration for others. I have met several apostles and a few prophets and I have met some holy individuals. They are not always the same simply because of their calling on earth.
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 22 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Those same ancient apostles and prophets that denied the Christ, that argued with one another, and remained human while Christ was on the earth and after he returned to his Father. Those same ancient apostles and prophets of whom Christ said, 'He that receiveth you receiveth me'. Some people seem to need prophets to be perfect and infallible -- demigods, really -- before they are willing to receive them. This has never been the case. But it's still a spiritually damaging mistake not to receive them. Always has been. 3
Storm Rider Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Those same ancient apostles and prophets of whom Christ said, 'He that receiveth you receiveth me'. Some people seem to need prophets to be perfect and infallible -- demigods, really -- before they are willing to receive them. This has never been the case. But it's still a spiritually damaging mistake not to receive them. Always has been. I agree with you. I think there is blame to go around or, in other words, it is not the sole fault of individuals. There was a time when the Church really enforced a concept of putting the Brethren on high pedestals - if the prophet speaks there is no further discussion, etc. At the same time, I think humans generally like to find heroes and we make them vastly better than we are ourselves. Leaders of every level in church leadership remain very human. I learned this lesson on my mission. My first mission president was excellent and my second mission president was much less than that. I have said that he was the most uninspired leader I have ever met and I still feel that way. He was not a bad guy, just really did not have a good connection to the Spirit or something. I also met many General Authorities during my mission and afterward. I found several of them to be great men and then I found others to be less than great....at least, very human. I had put church leaders on very high pedestals and it took a lot before I was able to overcome my poor perception of what a leader in the Church was supposed to be and what he was not. Edited October 18, 2018 by Storm Rider 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 40 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Leaders of every level in church leadership remain very human. I learned this lesson on my mission. The district leader in my third area was Pres Hinckley's grand-nephew. He used to regale us with hilarious 'Uncle Gordy' stories. The Lord, thankfully, doesn't need anything greater than just a humble, faithful man to act as His authorised mouthpiece. 1
OnceWasMormon Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 8 hours ago, Storm Rider said: This feels more like forcing it to meet your personal issue or agenda than a real systemic problem. I don't know how they teach discussions today - I have reviewed the Preach My Gospel manual, but I just don't remember the order of the lessons. However, I know that we do continue to teach that same organization that existed in ancient times exists today consisting of prophets and apostles. I don't think there is any attempt to identify them as anything more than as they were anciently. Those same ancient apostles and prophets that denied the Christ, that argued with one another, and remained human while Christ was on the earth and after he returned to his Father. Perspective is everything. You seem to remain in one position in order to maintain your perspective. It may not be nearly as big as big a problem as you think. It may not be a problem at all. Okay, whatever you think is a fair thing is fine with me.
OnceWasMormon Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 From the various comments related to the matter of 'Godliness' of the Prophet and the Apostles of God, it would appear that the only difference between a Prophet of The Church and the Pope is that one communes with God and one doesn't. Both are 'Men' and neither is infallible when it comes to divine revelation. One receives revelation from God, and one doesn't. One is expected to be more 'Godly' than the rank and file member, and one isn't. One heads God's ONLY true Church on the earth today, and one doesn't. One puts mistakes down to 'misinterpretation' of revelation, and one does precisely the same. One implicitly suggests eternal damnation for sin, one has an Eternal 'class' system. Thank-you and goodnight.
Storm Rider Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 5 hours ago, OnceWasMormon said: Okay, whatever you think is a fair thing is fine with me. I think we often hold on to a perception of things for odd reasons. Often our perceptions are correct, but at other times they are not. Time often allows us to shift our perceptions for various reasons and at other times, learning or personal revelation enables us to shift them also. One of the more difficult things for humans to gain is the ability to see ourselves. We then see more clearly the motivations behind our actions and thoughts (perceptions). We recognize more easily the things we don't know that we don't know. Discovery of our human nature is what gives me a stronger faith in God and the Savior. In our humanity, he still saves us if we are willing.
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