So, why get baptized for DEAD people

[LittleNipper]

Just now, Jane_Doe said:

Then whether or not a person properly recites post-Biblical creeds doesn't matter to salvation? 

NOPE. One merely must acknowledge that the LORD JESUS CHRIST is LORD of their life and ask GOD to save them from their sins. That's it. 

[Jane_Doe]

5 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

NOPE. One merely must acknowledge that the LORD JESUS CHRIST is LORD of their life and ask GOD to save them from their sins. That's it. 

Cool.  Thank you for being so direct in your answers.  I really appreciate it.

And yes, I am saved according to the statement you provided here.  As are other LDS folks.  

[LittleNipper]

9 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

Which form/model/version of the Trinity a rev you referring ?,  Athanasion,  Augustinian, Western, Eastern, Economic, Essential,  Social, Bultman ?.  True LDS Doctrine, Teaching, Thought, Practice, Walk, Run is in The True Godhead/Trinity, or a Ancient, Monarch, Eastern, Economic, Social, Godhead, Trinity. May True Grace abound with you and those you Love, this day

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinal, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrrior

The Biblical version: 

You won’t find the word “trinity” in your Bible—so is the idea of a three-in-one God even biblical? I’ve been working through the Bible book by book, and every once in a while I’ll come across a clause that mentions all three members of the Holy Trinity: God the Father, God the Son (the Lord Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit.

Not one God in three phases. Not three different gods coexisting. One divine ESSENCE, three offices.

Credit: Crossway Bibles. The ESV Study Bible. Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2008. (Logos Bible Software edition)

Here’s a list of single Bible verses that explicitly reference all three members of the Trinity.

1. Matthew 3:16 “After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him.”

2. Matthew 12:28 “But if I [Jesus] cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”

3. Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit . . .”

4. Luke 3:22 “And the Holy Spirit descended upon Him [Jesus] in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My [the Father’s] beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”

5. John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My [Jesus’] name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” 

6. John 15:2 “When the Helper comes, whom I [Jesus] will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me . . .”

7. Acts 1:4 “Gathering them together, He [Jesus] commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me . . .”

8. Acts 2:33 “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Jesus] has poured forth this which you both see and hear.” 

9. Acts 10:38“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”

10. Romans 1:4 “Who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord . . .”

11. Romans 8:9 “However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”

12. 1 Corinthians 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 

13. 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. 

14. Galatians 4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 15.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 

16. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 

17. Ephesians 2:22 In whom [Jesus] you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

18. Titus 3:6 Whom [the Holy Spirit] He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior.

19. Hebrews 9:14 How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 

20. 1 Peter 1:2 According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: may grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Edited October 12, 2018 by LittleNipper

[LittleNipper]

5 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Cool.  Thank you for being so direct in your answers.  I really appreciate it.

And yes, I am saved according to the statement you provided here.  As are other LDS folks.  

But how can Jesus be LORD if there is only one LORD? So in fact Jesus is GOD.

[LittleNipper]

11 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

When you say GOD HIMSELF saved man - which man are you talking about? God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit?  

You seem to be going in a lot of areas that would be declared heresy by orthodox Christianity. You state God himself saves by no act of man. If this is true then no individual needs to do anything because they are already saved by an act of God. You do follow your statement up with a qualifier - "other than by a personal faith". Are you now saying that a "personal faith" is the act that saves a child of God or not? 

You might want to do some study about some of the heresies. Start with Monarchianism and Modalism. What you have stated above is directly out of Modalism and is not a teaching of Trinity as understood and taught by Orthodoxy. 

 

There is one ESSENCE GOD that exists as three beings. Each being has a primary role; however, the SON placed HIMSELF under the direction of the FATHER by way of the SPIRIT. They all work together as ONE. In fact this eternal closeness cannot be better exhibited than when Jesus cried, "Lord, Lord, why have you forsaken me?" The physical pain that Jesus faced to save the lost, was nothing when compared to the split HE felt from the FATHER at that moment...  This is something even a person sent to hell may not comprehend. To be complete and then separated must have been absolutely horrible. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by LittleNipper

[Jane_Doe]

1 minute ago, LittleNipper said:

But how can Jesus be LORD if there is only one LORD? So in fact Jesus is GOD.

LDS 100% believe that Jesus Christ is 100% divine God.  To be more specific, He is the Son of God.  He's not the Father or the Spirit (those are two different persons).  

[LittleNipper]

6 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

LDS 100% believe that Jesus Christ is 100% divine God.  To be more specific, He is the Son of God.  He's not the Father or the Spirit (those are two different persons).  

Three persons but one essence GOD --- not three gods. And to follow along, this is why even a saved individual who dies and faces GOD will never be a GOD. He will always be a redeemed "Adam". And Adam was created, but Christ the SON was not. He is DIVINE. We were created. Created beings will never be supernatural. They will always be under the LORD and tending any creation GOD deems it HIS pleasure to create for HIS redeemed elect.

Edited October 12, 2018 by LittleNipper

[Jane_Doe]

8 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

Three persons but one essence GOD --- not three gods. 

Can you point to a Bible verse where it explains the essence part?

And also, making sure again we're not crossing into salvation-is-dependent-on-passing-a-theology-test territory, cause neither of us believe that.

8 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

And to follow along, this is why even a saved individual who dies and faces GOD will never be a GOD. He will always be a redeemed "Adam". And Adam was created, but Christ the SON was not. He is DIVINE. We were created.

Salvation has nothing to do with one's belief on what man was/is/will be.  Let's not get distracted from talking about Christ.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[LittleNipper]

35 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Can you point to a Bible verse where it explains the essence part?

And also, making sure again we're not crossing into salvation-is-dependent-on-passing-a-theology-test territory, cause neither of us believe that.

Salvation has nothing to do with one's belief on what man was/is/will be.  Let's not get distracted from talking about Christ.

My point is that Christ is not a created being. He was not man who was made divine. He was Divine who emptied Himself to become a man. 

AND Well, the entire issue begins at the beginning: 

Genesis 1:26

Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves; and let them rule over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the animals, and over all the earth, and over every crawling creature that crawls on the earth.”

 

And yet in Colossians 1:16 it is revealed,

For in him (THE SON) all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him (THE SON) and for him (THE SON).   SO, Since we know GOD created everything and since CHRIST is revealed to create everything, then we realize that CHRIST is GOD and GOD is CHRIST. And that THEY created man in their image. ONE GOD existing forever as three beings.

Edited October 12, 2018 by LittleNipper

[Jane_Doe]

2 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

My point is that Christ is not a created being. He was not man who was made divine. He was Divine who emptied Himself to become a man. 

AND Well, the entire issue begins at the beginning: 

Genesis 1:26

Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves; and let them rule over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the animals, and over all the earth, and over every crawling creature that crawls on the earth.”

Well, you can rest as ease: LDS don't believe that Christ was a man who was made divine.  He was the Son of God before the creation of the world, created this world, then lived on it as a mortal, died for our sins, rose again, and now ascended once again sits on the Father's right hand.  

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

There is one ESSENCE GOD that exists as three beings. Each being has a primary role; however, the SON placed HIMSELF under the direction of the FATHER by way of the SPIRIT. They all work together as ONE. In fact this eternal closeness cannot be better exhibited than when Jesus cried, "Lord, Lord, why have you forsaken me?" The physical pain that Jesus faced to save the lost, was nothing when compared to the split HE felt from the FATHER at that moment...  This is something even a person sent to hell may not comprehend. To be complete and then separated must have been absolutely horrible. 

1

Now you are better ground if you are a Trinitarian; however, what you just stated above is not what you stated in your previous statements. I know Trinitarian doctrine and I can recognize what it is not and what it is. I still urge you to study Modalism; your previous statements were not Trinitarian doctrine within orthodoxy.

They are three distinct persons; they are not just different phases, or modes, of one person or one God. 

Within the Trinity, the three separate persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are one essence, substance, and nature. Several of the scriptures you cited, if not all of them, are well known to members of the Church of Jesus Christ.

You are not going to get very far using the Bible. Members of the Church read the scriptures and know them. I have not yet found a Christian church that produces such a common knowledge of scripture among their membership as does the Church of Jesus Christ. 

Based on your teachings, all members of the Church of Jesus Christ are Christian because they recognize him and know him as their Lord and Savior. At least we have that belief in common. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

One merely must acknowledge that the LORD JESUS CHRIST is LORD of their life and ask GOD to save them from their sins. That's it. 

Our baptism is essentially that, so all Saints who sincerely believe the meaning of baptism as taught in the Restored Gospel of Christ are saved according to your comments.

[Anakin7]

10 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

The Biblical version: 

You won’t find the word “trinity” in your Bible—so is the idea of a three-in-one God even biblical? I’ve been working through the Bible book by book, and every once in a while I’ll come across a clause that mentions all three members of the Holy Trinity: God the Father, God the Son (the Lord Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit.

Not one God in three phases. Not three different gods coexisting. One divine ESSENCE, three offices.

Credit: Crossway Bibles. The ESV Study Bible. Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2008. (Logos Bible Software edition)

Here’s a list of single Bible verses that explicitly reference all three members of the Trinity.

1. Matthew 3:16 “After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him.”

2. Matthew 12:28 “But if I [Jesus] cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”

3. Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit . . .”

4. Luke 3:22 “And the Holy Spirit descended upon Him [Jesus] in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My [the Father’s] beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”

5. John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My [Jesus’] name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” 

6. John 15:2 “When the Helper comes, whom I [Jesus] will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me . . .”

7. Acts 1:4 “Gathering them together, He [Jesus] commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me . . .”

8. Acts 2:33 “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Jesus] has poured forth this which you both see and hear.” 

9. Acts 10:38“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”

10. Romans 1:4 “Who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord . . .”

11. Romans 8:9 “However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”

12. 1 Corinthians 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 

13. 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. 

14. Galatians 4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 15.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 

16. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 

17. Ephesians 2:22 In whom [Jesus] you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

18. Titus 3:6 Whom [the Holy Spirit] He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior.

19. Hebrews 9:14 How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 

20. 1 Peter 1:2 According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: may grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. 

 

 

    Sorry but you did not answer my question above. All of the forms/models/versions of the trinity that I posted above claim to "Be The Biblical One" as you shared above in your statement that your presentation is "The Biblical One" . From my Lights The True LDS form/model/version of The Godhead - An Ancient/Monarch/Eastern/Economic/Social/Godhead/Trinity is the True Saintly, Christian, Biblical one. There are inherent difficulties and problems with the form/model/version of the western trinity - one of which is - "One Essence [nature] 3 offices reads sounds modalistic/sabellian. But thank you again for sharing your mind/hearts analysis with us. Have a True Grace empowered day/night.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

Quote

 

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Anakin7

[LittleNipper]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Our baptism is essentially that, so all Saints who sincerely believe the meaning of baptism as taught in the Restored Gospel of Christ are saved according to your comments.

Saving Baptism is only the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is only an illustration meant to confirm publicly that change.

[LittleNipper]

1 hour ago, Anakin7 said:

 

    Sorry but you did not answer my question above. All of the forms/models/versions of the trinity that I posted above claim to "Be The Biblical One" as you shared above in your statement that your presentation is "The Biblical One" . From my Lights The True LDS form/model/version of The Godhead - An Ancient/Monarch/Eastern/Economic/Social/Godhead/Trinity is the True Saintly, Christian, Biblical one. There are inherent difficulties and problems with the form/model/version of the western trinity - one of which is - "One Essence [nature] 3 offices reads sounds modalistic/sabellian. But thank you again for sharing your mind/hearts analysis with us. Have a True Grace empowered day/night.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

 

The Trinity is made up of 3 individuals. But they are more than that. They are joined in love, direction, will. They are ONE. We cannot understand GOD in terms of humans and anyone who claims to understand the totality of GOD is a liar (except Christ Himself). The Prophets of the past didn't even fully comprehend what GOD told them to write --- how could they understand GOD? How could we? 

[JLHPROF]

19 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

Saving Baptism is only the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is only an illustration meant to confirm publicly that change.

Then why was Christ baptized to fulfill all righteousness?

 

[LittleNipper]

14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Then why was Christ baptized to fulfill all righteousness?

 

Not only is Jesus the SAVIOR, but JESUS was baptized to set the example and illustrate a new meaning for Baptism. Why did Jesus pray? He was interacting with the Father but He was also setting the example and living it and teaching His disciples how to pray. And He was also witnessing to John the Baptist that He was the Messiah. Jesus was man and yet He was also getting ready to be the perfect sacrifice.

Edited October 12, 2018 by LittleNipper

[Anakin7]

2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

The Trinity is made up of 3 individuals. But they are more than that. They are joined in love, direction, will. They are ONE. We cannot understand GOD in terms of humans and anyone who claims to understand the totality of GOD is a liar (except Christ Himself). The Prophets of the past didn't even fully comprehend what GOD told them to write --- how could they understand GOD? How could we? 

The above illustration you shared says says "One Essence" ="nature", 3 offices [ not individuals] = a form of modalism/sabellianism which is a heresy in early christian history. John 17:3 this is life eternal to "know thee" the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent.   So it is not totaly impossible to at least understand some of God's nature and attributes. to Know is on an intimate relationship. Thank you again for sharing.

The Atonement It is The Central doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

[Anakin7]

2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Not only is Jesus the SAVIOR, but JESUS was baptized to set the example and illustrate a new meaning for Baptism. Why did Jesus pray? He was interacting with the Father but He was also setting the example and living it and teaching His disciples how to pray. And He was also witnessing to John the Baptist that He was the Messiah. Jesus was man and yet He was also getting ready to be the perfect sacrifice.

I agree 100 % and also Baptism in water is a necessary ordinance to enter The Kingdom of Heaven. N.T teaches it, Apostolic Fathers taught it, Christian history teaches it,  Catholic, Orthodox, lutheran and other Christian faith's teach it as well.

The Atonement It Is the Central  Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe in His Blood

In his Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Edited October 12, 2018 by Anakin7

[JLHPROF]

13 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Not only is Jesus the SAVIOR, but JESUS was baptized to set the example and illustrate a new meaning for Baptism. Why did Jesus pray? He was interacting with the Father but He was also setting the example and living it and teaching His disciples how to pray. And He was also witnessing to John the Baptist that He was the Messiah. Jesus was man and yet He was also getting ready to be the perfect sacrifice.

As usual that doesn't answer the question.

Why did Christ need to be baptized to "fulfill all righteousness"?  Those are his words, his description.  Without being baptized he would not have been perfectly righteous.  

[LittleNipper]

22 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

As usual that doesn't answer the question.

Why did Christ need to be baptized to "fulfill all righteousness"?  Those are his words, his description.  Without being baptized he would not have been perfectly righteous.  

Sorry, but GOD/CHRIST is perfect and without sin and fully righteous . Jesus was on track fulfilling the elect's righteousness. Jesus was essentially telling John, “You’re out here in the wilderness saying that God is breaking into our world to do a new thing and that anybody who wants to be part of it should be baptized to show how they want to join in what God is doing rather than follow sin. Well, I’m all about what God is doing. I’m here to demonstrate that by being baptized.” 

In short, Jesus needed to be baptized to fulfill the messianic prophecies identifying him as the Messiah—the baptism sets the stage for the Spirit of God to descent on Him to identify him as the Messiah.

John 1:31-34
31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”

Edited October 13, 2018 by LittleNipper

[LittleNipper]

On 10/12/2018 at 11:19 AM, Anakin7 said:

I agree 100 % and also Baptism in water is a necessary ordinance to enter The Kingdom of Heaven. N.T teaches it, Apostolic Fathers taught it, Christian history teaches it,  Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran and other Christian faith's teach it as well.

The Atonement It Is the Central  Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe in His Blood

In his Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Water dunking saves no one.  It is exactly like a ring at a wedding. The ring isn't the marriage. It is the promise --- the consummation with hope of children. The only baptism that counts is that of the Holy SPIRIT's indwelling. If water baptism was all important --- what about the Thief on the cross? What about Abraham, Moses, David, Lazarus? Who were baptized for them? But Jesus was nailed to the cross for them and permeated Jacob's bosom and released them but this also reaches forward to catch whosoever will in the future. JESUS saves the faithful of the past, in the present, and into the future.

Edited October 13, 2018 by LittleNipper

[JLHPROF]

15 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Sorry, but GOD/CHRIST is perfect and without sin and fully righteous . Jesus was on track fulfilling the elect's righteousness. Jesus was essentially telling John, “You’re out here in the wilderness saying that God is breaking into our world to do a new thing and that anybody who wants to be part of it should be baptized to show how they want to join in what God is doing rather than follow sin. Well, I’m all about what God is doing. I’m here to demonstrate that by being baptized.” 

In short, Jesus needed to be baptized to fulfill the messianic prophecies identifying him as the Messiah—the baptism sets the stage for the Spirit of God to descent on Him to identify him as the Messiah.

John 1:31-34
31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”

It's like banging one's head against the wall.

That's NOT what Christ said, that doesn't address what Christ said, and that makes assumptions not found in the text of the event.

But if making stuff up makes you feel better, go for it.  Me?  I'll stick to what is actually written.

[Anakin7]

    Christ Jesus, Peter, James, John, the other True Apostles including Paul, Apostolic Fathers, Early post N.T Church leaders, Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, and a # of non LDS Christians believe/adhere to water baptism as necessary for salvation. The wedding analogy works because once one receives the engagement ring it symbolizes the acceptance of the new covenant and makes a decision to follow Christ Jesus as there Vice Monarch, Lord Of Life, Lord, Redeemer, Savior God, King Master of other lives - Luke 14:25-35 , they count the cost and weigh if they can do it. Water Baptism [The Wedding Ring] seals the acceptance of the New Covenant written In Christ Jesus Blood and symbolical washes away the sins of the individual. In response to the other questions of individuals in Holy writ not saying about being Baptized and other criticisms about no Baptism as necessary for True salvation there are answers. See http://www.bebaptized.org  May True Grace be with all.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Anakin7

[LittleNipper]

On 10/13/2018 at 11:39 PM, JLHPROF said:

It's like banging one's head against the wall.

That's NOT what Christ said, that doesn't address what Christ said, and that makes assumptions not found in the text of the event.

But if making stuff up makes you feel better, go for it.  Me?  I'll stick to what is actually written.

Well, when you do all the work yourself and the Holy Spirit isn't in it ---- it would be like banging one's head against a wall! First off, You are connecting with a guy who was Christened (Baby sprinkled/baptism) by the 1st Bishop of Camden, Monsignor Bartholomew Eustace (Appointed by Pope Pius XI) at CHRIST THE KING Roman Catholic church of Haddonfield NJ. It was from this church on December 24, 1947 that Channel 6 WFIL-TV broadcast the FIRST TV Telecast of any Roman Catholic Mass ever.   And on top of that I was baptized by immersion (by an old time minister) at the Moorestown, NJ Bible Church at the age of 24.

So, if water baptisms count in heaven for anything , then I'm about as special as one can be dunk wise! HOWEVER, I know that the water baptism is an illustration exactly as is the Lord's Supper. Now the Catholics believe in TRANSUBSTANTIATION. They believe that the wafer actually becomes the BODY of Christ and the wine converts into the BLOOD of Christ. Jesus did in fact say, "THIS IS MY BODY." And spoke about eating His flesh... However He qualified this when He said , "Do this in remembrance of Me." And I know that Mormons do NOT believe in TRANSUBSTANTIATION. Now when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus the Jewish priest, Nicodemus came from a belief that Jews went to heaven because they were BORN JEWISH. But Jesus said, "YOU MUST be born again." Nicodemus said, "How can this be? Does one become a baby again and be reborn?" Then Jesus speaking to this Jew, stated that one must be BORN and then REBORN of the spirit."  The rational understanding is that a baby for 9 months floats around in the embryonic fluid and this water breaks and the baby is born. And in fact Jews are born. That is a necessary part. But then the Holy Spirit comes and embraces the individual and this is the second birth when one comes by faith in Christ/Messiah. Jesus is not speaking of the rite of immersion at all. He is speaking of birth and rebirth. Birth involves embryonic fluid and water breaking, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit involves being bathed in the Holy Spirit. 

I do not accept TRANSUBSTANTIATION though I do fully believe that the Lord's Supper is a very special tradition initiated by Jesus to illustrate what would happen to HIM in remembrance. Just as water baptism is an illustration of what happens inwardly when the Holy Spirit is invited into one's heart and baptizes that individual into the body of believers. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by LittleNipper