USU78 Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 On 10/22/2018 at 9:17 PM, mfbukowski said: Sorry you do not understand the temple at all. That's like saying we should all be born with Phd's in philosophy and science and every single subject known to mankind. We get to learn stuff. We are stupid. We cannot make it go. God can make it go. But first we have to learn. 😂🤣😂🤣😂 1
LittleNipper Posted October 27, 2018 Author Posted October 27, 2018 On 10/26/2018 at 1:40 AM, mfbukowski said: Yet again that is a non sequitur. You are misinformed. And WHO informed you?
LittleNipper Posted October 27, 2018 Author Posted October 27, 2018 On 10/26/2018 at 1:39 AM, mfbukowski said: Just wrong. You do not understand the subject so you have no credibility. The next time I show up at one of your temples, I'll let you give me a guided tour...
LittleNipper Posted October 27, 2018 Author Posted October 27, 2018 On 10/26/2018 at 1:35 AM, mfbukowski said: You totally reversed it. What you said was that Mormons know everything that Jesus did not do So, you say. Prove that Jesus did and taught what Mormons believe from the Bible.
mfbukowski Posted October 27, 2018 Posted October 27, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: So, you say. Prove that Jesus did and taught what Mormons believe from the Bible. Lol, prove the Bible is true about Salvation, and that all other world religions are false. Edited October 27, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted October 27, 2018 Posted October 27, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, LittleNipper said: And WHO informed you? Fifty years of study of philosophy and doctrine, degrees, and leadership experience. I have trained bishops and temple workers, but all that's irrelevant without the Spirit. The Spirit taught me more than that in a few nanoseconds, and He could teach you too if you just let Him. One glance at the big picture makes all of the little pieces fall together. Otherwise it's like trying to put together a jigsaw puzzle without knowing what it's supposed to look like when it's finished. When God shows you the big picture that's all you need. The rest is easy. Edited October 27, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted October 27, 2018 Posted October 27, 2018 5 hours ago, LittleNipper said: The next time I show up at one of your temples, I'll let you give me a guided tour... Great. When you're ready let's set that up.
MiserereNobis Posted October 28, 2018 Posted October 28, 2018 It can be frustrating as a non-Mormon to hear how the LDS temple has all these beautiful insights and answers to questions brought up on this board because us non-members don't have access to that. In other words, please don't use knowledge of what goes on in the temple as a bludgeon to us non-initiates when we discuss this on this board. Unless, as Little Nipper says, you want to give us a tour of your temple. Or, equally so, if you'd like us to watch the temple content online. Then we'd be able to discuss what you're talking about. Otherwise, your posturing comes off as "we're in the cool club and you're not." I think perhaps the board rules should be amended to say that not only is temple content is verboten, but also obscure references to it that non-members don't know is also verboten. Otherwise you're just asking us to go seek it out online so we can counter your arguments. 1
LittleNipper Posted October 28, 2018 Author Posted October 28, 2018 9 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Fifty years of study of philosophy and doctrine, degrees, and leadership experience. I have trained bishops and temple workers, but all that's irrelevant without the Spirit. The Spirit taught me more than that in a few nanoseconds, and He could teach you too if you just let Him. One glance at the big picture makes all of the little pieces fall together. Otherwise it's like trying to put together a jigsaw puzzle without knowing what it's supposed to look like when it's finished. When God shows you the big picture that's all you need. The rest is easy. The Spirit teaches through the Word of GOD. We are not GOD and cannot see the BIG PICTURE and frankly believers in eternity will never know everything GOD is aware of. 14 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Lol, prove the Bible is true about Salvation, and that all other world religions are false. All Christians should realize that the Bible is true and contradicts the teachings of man-made religions.
mfbukowski Posted October 28, 2018 Posted October 28, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: It can be frustrating as a non-Mormon to hear how the LDS temple has all these beautiful insights and answers to questions brought up on this board because us non-members don't have access to that. In other words, please don't use knowledge of what goes on in the temple as a bludgeon to us non-initiates when we discuss this on this board. Unless, as Little Nipper says, you want to give us a tour of your temple. Or, equally so, if you'd like us to watch the temple content online. Then we'd be able to discuss what you're talking about. Otherwise, your posturing comes off as "we're in the cool club and you're not." I think perhaps the board rules should be amended to say that not only is temple content is verboten, but also obscure references to it that non-members don't know is also verboten. Otherwise you're just asking us to go seek it out online so we can counter your arguments. Very sorry, honestly. But this is a board for members as well and I am glad to discuss LDS matters with LDS people. Also unfortunately for non-members you could watch those movies over and over again and still not understand the context, not because you are uninformed and not because you do not have the spirit but because you do not live it 24/7. The first 50 or so times I went to the temple I was highly disappointed, and got nothing out of it. One must be reading scriptures and listen to talks and doing all the things that LDS people do before it even starts to congeal a little bit in your head. There are structures to the service you don't even notice until you've seen it many many times, you must know the facsimiles in the book of Abraham and be aware of things that don't appear in the film like the location of the rooms and how the flow goes between them to fully get it. Imagine a Baptist sitting through a Tridentine High Mass, with incense and Gregorian chant in Latin of course, and you will understand what I'm saying, or even an adoration service. Isn't that what they now call "Benediction?" Imagine what a fundamentalist evengelical might think about that, the Tantum Ergo, etc. Imagine a movie of a group saying the Rosary. How much would anyone get out of that? That is about the equivalent of what one would get by watching movies on the internet. In other words nothing. It's the difference between pornography and being sealed forever before God angels and witnesses. Edited October 28, 2018 by mfbukowski
LittleNipper Posted October 28, 2018 Author Posted October 28, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Very sorry, honestly. But this is a board for members as well and I am glad to discuss LDS matters with LDS people. Also unfortunately for non-members you could watch those movies over and over again and still not understand the context, not because you are uninformed and not because you do not have the spirit but because you do not live it 24/7. The first 50 or so times I went to the temple I was highly disappointed, and got nothing out of it. One must be reading scriptures and listen to talks and doing all the things that LDS people do before it even starts to congeal a little bit in your head. There are structures to the service you don't even notice until you've seen it many many times, you must know the facsimiles in the book of Abraham and be aware of things that don't appear in the film like the location of the rooms and how the flow goes between them to fully get it. Imagine a Baptist sitting through a Tridentine High Mass, with incense and Gregorian chant in Latin of course, and you will understand what I'm saying, or even an adoration service. Isn't that what they now call "Benediction?" Imagine what a fundamentalist evengelical might think about that, the Tantum Ergo, etc. Imagine a movie of a group saying the Rosary. How much would anyone get out of that? That is about the equivalent of what one would get by watching movies on the internet. In other words nothing. The above sounds a bit like propaganda. However salvation as GOD presents it in the Bible would seem rather easy and simple ---- Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Edited October 28, 2018 by LittleNipper
mfbukowski Posted October 28, 2018 Posted October 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: Sounds a bit like propaganda. However salvation as GOD presents it in the scripture would seem rather easy and simple ---- Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. This has nothing to do with Salvation. It is beyond salvation. 1
mfbukowski Posted October 28, 2018 Posted October 28, 2018 9 hours ago, LittleNipper said: The Spirit teaches through the Word of GOD. We are not GOD and cannot see the BIG PICTURE and frankly believers in eternity will never know everything GOD is aware of. All Christians should realize that the Bible is true and contradicts the teachings of man-made religions. You get what you believe you get. You are limiting your own potential.
Vance Posted October 28, 2018 Posted October 28, 2018 On 10/4/2018 at 10:14 PM, LittleNipper said: The issue or problem presented in the story is that men have an opportunity to make up their minds with regard to their salvation while they are alive. Only if they have a opportunity to hear and accept the truth. On 10/4/2018 at 10:14 PM, LittleNipper said: The rich man was likely a Jew. There is no reason to imagine otherwise, as Jesus was speaking to Jews. This rich man had money and power enough to follow all the ritualism of Jewish tradition and yet ended up in hell. He ended up in Hell, not for what he believed but because of his disobedience to the commandments of God, which he would have been taught, being a "Jew". On 10/4/2018 at 10:14 PM, LittleNipper said: There is no suggestion by Abraham that all that is needed is for someone to be baptized for this rich man and all would be made better... True. Because lack of baptism wasn't his problem. Disobedience to the commandments he knew was. On 10/4/2018 at 10:14 PM, LittleNipper said: There is only the dire warning that the rich man's brothers would not accept a man risen from the dead if they didn't regard the writing of Moses and the Prophets. They to, were being disobedient to the commandments given by Moses and the Prophets. Why send a ghost from the dead when they already had the commandments of God. On 10/4/2018 at 10:14 PM, LittleNipper said: This logically is pointing to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Nope. It is logically pointing to their disobedience. On 10/4/2018 at 10:14 PM, LittleNipper said: As for Jesus going to paradise and preaching (and I do believe even the rich man heard Jesus preach from across the great chasm), I'm reminded by the Holy Spirit through GOD's Holy Word that Noah also preached to those who would eventually be drowned and Lot went and preached of the coming judgement to his very sons-in-law but to no avail. Jesus preached that HE did what was prophesied HE would do and emptied out Paradise (where Abraham and Lazarus' spirits resided for a time) It was also prophesied that he would deliver the lawful captives. On 10/4/2018 at 10:14 PM, LittleNipper said: taking the pre-resurrection elect to heaven. Strange, that you have no scripture as foundation for this assertion. "Pre-resurrection elect" is not found in scripture. On 10/4/2018 at 10:14 PM, LittleNipper said: By the elect, I mean only those who believed (had faith) that GOD alone would save them. And what of those who never had the chance in life to hear the truth? On 10/4/2018 at 10:14 PM, LittleNipper said: A point of the story is that one has only the opportunity of redemption while one remains alive Nope, that is not the point at all. On 10/4/2018 at 10:14 PM, LittleNipper said: and this only if one regards the teachings of the Bible as true and now accepts the Messiah as GOD Not everyone gets a chance in this life to even hear the truth. On 10/4/2018 at 10:14 PM, LittleNipper said: --- not just a god --- but GOD meaning O-N-E with GOD the Father and GOD the Holy Spirit. Blah, blah , blah. Just sectarian drivel.
Vance Posted October 28, 2018 Posted October 28, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 9:32 PM, LittleNipper said: Pretty sure is not ABSOLUTELY positive... Aren't we all "twat"? I mean the Bible says for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD. There is NONE that doeth good ---- no not one! I would imagine that once one ended up in hell, he'd totally realize that he /she made a big mistake. I believe they would change if they could. However, it would seem that one cannot change. One must be changed. So do you believe that their free will is compromised? The the scripture that says "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" is fulfilled by coercion? "There is NONE that doeth good ---- no not one! " Does that "NONE" include Jesus? Or does "NONE" not really mean "NONE"?
Vance Posted October 28, 2018 Posted October 28, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 9:53 PM, LittleNipper said: But shouldn't the baptism that could affect anything be spiritual in nature? Jn3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Did Jesus mean what he said? If Baptism by water was required of Jesus, who had no sin. Isn't it much more required of us? On 10/5/2018 at 9:53 PM, LittleNipper said: I mean in hell people are spirits --- are they not? Why, yes they are. Thus the need for mortals to receive the baptism for them. You know, by proxy. On 10/5/2018 at 9:53 PM, LittleNipper said: How can your water baptism here have any influence on a relationship the departed should have had with GOD during his lifetime... It allows for them to follow the commandment of the Father to be baptized like His Son. His Son, did set the perfect example. On 10/5/2018 at 9:53 PM, LittleNipper said: His material existence is over. He is sealed according to the choices he made in his life. His spirit reflects how he lived without GOD. And what of those that would have accepted Christ if they would have only had the chance to hear of Him in their mortal life? Are they consigned to an eternal Hell because God forced them to live in a time and place where the truth of God was unknown?
Vance Posted October 28, 2018 Posted October 28, 2018 On 10/6/2018 at 7:00 AM, LittleNipper said: It must be understood that I believe that it's the indwelling or baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT that saves, and not water immersion. Yet Jesus SPECIFICALLY STATED "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. So, we should accept your teachings rather than Jesus'? Quote Immersion is an outward illustration of what the HOLY SPIRIT does internally and is performed as a sign to the community that one has accepted Jesus the Messiah as their personal Savior. In ancient times, this would be like hanging a bull's eye on one's back. It was a public declaration that one was a CHRISTIAN --- a very dangerous thing back then and is so today in many places... One's soul is married to GOD through faith in Christ and the indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT which is that still small voice that enlightens the saved individual as he both reads GOD's Word and continues in being a witness for Christ to the world. It is a growing process that climaxes at the moment of death of that Christian. BLAH, Blah, Blah, Just more sectarian drivel. @Vance tone it down or you'll be out of the thread. ~Mods
Vance Posted October 28, 2018 Posted October 28, 2018 On 10/8/2018 at 7:21 AM, LittleNipper said: Numerous explanations have been offered for this verse, ranging from the inane to the sophisticated. "Numerous" meaning that Evangelicals DO NOT KNOW what it means. The explanation I get the most is an admission that they don't know what it means, which goes something like this. "I don't know what it means, but Mormons Latter-Day Saints are wrong." On 10/8/2018 at 7:21 AM, LittleNipper said: In verses 1-19, the fact of Christ's resurrection is detailed by Paul. Beginning in verse 20 and going through verse 23, Paul speaks about the order of the resurrection. Christ was the first one raised - in a glorified body - and next will be those who are His at His return. Verses 24 - 29 then mention Christ's reign and the abolition of death. This is when this controversial verse occurs: "Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?" Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mentioned by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79. Bible Knowledge Commentary on 1 Cor. 15:29 The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced. Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Cor. 15:29, when he said, "...if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?" Paul did not say we.1 This is significant because the Christian church was not practicing baptism for the dead, but the pagans were. Paul's point was simple. The resurrection is a reality. It is going to happen when Jesus returns. Even the pagans believe in the resurrection, otherwise, why would they baptize for the dead? However, some are not convinced by this argument and state that the word "they" is not in the Greek and, therefore, Paul is not speaking about the pagans. Let's take a look. Literally, the verse is translated as "Since what will do the being immersed on behalf of the dead if wholly dead not are raised why also are they immersed on behalf of them." The issue here is the word, "baptizontai" -- "they are baptized." It is the present, passive, indicative, 3rd person, plural. In other words, it is THEY ARE BEING BAPTIZED or, THEY ARE BAPTIZED. I - first person singular you (singular) - second person singular he/she/it - third person singular we - first person plural you (plural) - second person plural they - third person plural It is the latter form, the third person plural (they) in which the verb "baptizo" is found. Therefore, the best translation is "THEY are baptized." Clearly Paul was not being baptized for the dead! So? Paul doesn't need to participate personally for it to be true doctrine. Besides, there is absolutely no reason for excluding Paul from the "they" since he didn't specify who exactly who the "they" were. On 10/8/2018 at 7:21 AM, LittleNipper said: And yet if the practice was valuable or viable shouldn't he practice what Mormons profess Paul was preaching? Where does Paul specifically state that he never participated in the practice? Where does he specifically state that the practice was abhorrent? On 10/8/2018 at 7:21 AM, LittleNipper said: Is it difficult to be dunked for dead people any more than taking a bath or a dip in the ocean ---- for an Apostle?!?!?!?! Who is claiming that it is? On 10/8/2018 at 7:21 AM, LittleNipper said: THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME PAUL APPLIED SUCH A TACTIC! HE called pagans religious --- and suggested that they already worship GOD!!! Acts 17: 22: “Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 “Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” They were religious and they did worship gods. So what is your point? On 10/8/2018 at 7:21 AM, LittleNipper said: Does this in truth mean that Paul ever thought of them as ALREADY SAVED? No. So what is your point? I think you are religious and you worship the unknowable trinitarian God, but that doesn't mean you will have eternal life. On 10/8/2018 at 7:21 AM, LittleNipper said: Paul is working with what he perceived to bring understanding to those people where they are at, And yet you will not apply this concept consistently to all of the Biblical personalities.
LittleNipper Posted October 29, 2018 Author Posted October 29, 2018 43 minutes ago, Vance said: "Numerous" meaning that Evangelicals DO NOT KNOW what it means. The explanation I get the most is an admission that they don't know what it means, which goes something like this. "I don't know what it means, but Mormons Latter-Day Saints are wrong." So? Paul doesn't need to participate personally for it to be true doctrine. Besides, there is absolutely no reason for excluding Paul from the "they" since he didn't specify who exactly who the "they" were. Where does Paul specifically state that he never participated in the practice? Where does he specifically state that the practice was abhorrent? Who is claiming that it is? They were religious and they did worship gods. So what is your point? No. So what is your point? I think you are religious and you worship the unknowable trinitarian God, but that doesn't mean you will have eternal life. And yet you will not apply this concept consistently to all of the Biblical personalities. What makes Mormons right? I believe GOD places somethings in the Bible just so we have something to contemplate, study, research and discuss. I do not believe everything in the Bible is intended by GOD for believers to fully understand or comprehend --------- so that individuals will place their trust in GOD rather than their own knowledge and understanding. The they/them is most certainly not me/us. I believe you worship a created being who got married and became a god, but that doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. I do believe the TRINITARIAN GOD is knowable through the LORD JESUS CHRIST. The full understanding regarding this TRINITY is simply not fathomable for mortal man but that doesn't harm my personal relationship with GOD. If GOD is one thing, HE is consistent.
Ouagadougou Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 On 10/27/2018 at 7:01 AM, LittleNipper said: And WHO informed you? Exactly! He is right because he claims or says he is right based on a feeling.
LittleNipper Posted October 29, 2018 Author Posted October 29, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Vance said: Yet Jesus SPECIFICALLY STATED "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. So, we should accept your teachings rather than Jesus'? BLAH, Blah, Blah, Just more sectarian drivel. And what baby do you know of that wasn't born of water (also known as embryonic fluid). They're bathed (baptized) in it for about 9 months. But not everyone is born of the Spirit. And I should accept your teachings rather than those found throughout the Bible? Edited October 29, 2018 by LittleNipper
LittleNipper Posted October 29, 2018 Author Posted October 29, 2018 7 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Exactly! He is right because he claims or says he is right based on a feeling. We are not saved by feelings. The Bible says that the word is good for understanding, reproof and training ---- makes no mention of "feelings" anywhere.
mfbukowski Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said: Exactly! He is right because he claims or says he is right based on a feeling. How do atheists know murder is wrong? A feeling. What makes you respond to an altar call? A feeling. Why do you take care of your kids instead of killing the noisy brats? A feeling. How do you know the Bible is true and that the Avesta, which teaches many if the same principles, is not? A feeling. Every issue of importance in your life is decided by feeling. "Importance" itself is a feeling, in deciding what IS important and what is not. Edited October 29, 2018 by mfbukowski 4
Vance Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 34 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: What makes Mormons right? Revelation from God. 34 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: I believe GOD places somethings in the Bible just so we have something to contemplate, study, research and discuss. I do not believe everything in the Bible is intended by GOD for believers to fully understand or comprehend --------- so that individuals will place their trust in GOD rather than their own knowledge and understanding. The they/them is most certainly not me/us. And your point is? 34 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: I believe you worship a created being who got married and became a god, but that doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. I believe you worship an impotent being, who by your own definition, is incapable or reproduction, but that doesn't mean you know what you are taking about. 34 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: I do believe the TRINITARIAN GOD is knowable through the LORD JESUS CHRIST. Then, you don't believe in the real trinitarian God. Though I would agree that to know the Lord Jesus Christ is to know God, the Eternal Father. 34 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: The full understanding regarding this TRINITY is simply not fathomable for mortal man but that doesn't harm my personal relationship with GOD. You say you can know Him, then you say you can't. Make up your mind. 34 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: If GOD is one thing, HE is consistent. On that, we can agree. 2
Ouagadougou Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: How do atheists know murder is wrong? A feeling. What makes you respond to an altar call? A feeling. Why do you take care of your kids instead of killing the noisy brats? A feeling. How do you know the Bible is true and that the Avesta, which teaches many if the same principles, is not? A feeling. Every issue of importance in your life is decided by feeling. 1. I am not atheist. 2. If you base it all on a feeling, then so can every other religion/person. I feel like temple work is a waste of my time, so my feeling is equally as important or valid as your feeling. I guess everyone is right in his/her own mind. No need to respond.
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