So, why get baptized for DEAD people

[LittleNipper]

I fully accept PREDESTINATION; however, the Holy Spirit has provided me with the understanding that this PREDESTINATION references GOD's full knowledge that HIS entire creation would behave in a way HE foreknew. And yet HE chose to create this existence, in order that those whom HE foreknew would come to embrace HIM --- would have this opportunity at eternal life, as they would in fact choose. This would indeed mean that there would be other created beings that would choose to live their lives indifferent to GOD's will (also totally comprehended by GOD) who would end up eternally separated from HIM forever...

Albeit, GOD made HIS decision to permit this creation of HIS to so proceed. And by so doing, HE actually was predesignating that things would turn out as they indeed are. So, Satan would fall, as well as a 1/3 of the angels, and Adam would be tempted  and choose to listen to Satan's lie, and this all proceeded as GOD (comprised of Father, Son,  Holy Ghost) fully foreknew without surprise. And so GOD already had a plan of salvation that would reach through the TIME HE created and chose to initiate ---- in order that HE would come to befriend (once blind) wretches like myself who would choose to accept HIS salvation complete with eternal life as an adopted child of GOD.  

So in fact, I do firmly believe , that if I had been the ONLY one who would accept CHRIST as my SAVIOR, GOD would have allowed the entire world of souls throughout history to enter hell, in order to allow me to be HIS eternal friend. I say this only to reinforce the extent of what predestination means. There are of course other saved individuals from throughout history who GOD foreknew and so they are also predestined as well!

Do I understand this? NO. But I am not GOD, nor do I ever pretend to be...

Edited October 9, 2018 by LittleNipper

[Anakin7]

Thank you for your explanation of your thoughts.I guess/suppose i was predestined to be a Former Methodist/Fundamentalist Independent Baptist now LDS.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

[LittleNipper]

1 hour ago, Anakin7 said:

Thank you for your explanation of your thoughts.I guess/suppose i was predestined to be a Former Methodist/Fundamentalist Independent Baptist now LDS.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

I see you are on a journey. I would never desire to hurt you --- you must realize that. The issue from the outset is that Mormonism is founded on works. And I can see that a heavy amount of importance is placed on performance rather than encouraging being committed out of love of GOD --- to strive to please HIM for pleasing alone without any need of having too. The extraneous books of Mormon do nothing to promote the GREAT COMMISSION. And the other works are only to prop up "Mormon IDEOLOGY" rather than promote Jesus Christ. The Atonement for me is the doctrine everything else rests on with LOVE being the foundation. And to strive to find out if one will sit on the right or left hand of the Father in heaven is no more appropriate now than it was 2000 years ago --- when a pair of brothers fretted over it. We cannot become as GOD. If anything Jesus the Christ became like unto us. Frankly, I see that this entire CREATION is about GOD interacting with us at our level rather than us imagining ever to be GOD. I find such thoughts akin to Satan's FALL ---  "Did god really say you would die --- oh no, he's holding out on you because he knows when you eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, you will be JUST LIKE him!" 

I used a small "god" to emphasize what Satan seemed to want to imagine GOD to be. To Satan GOD is not the CREATOR of EVERYTHING but a manipulator of what already existed --- and this I believe is where Mormonism and true Christianity begin to be ripped apart. One either believes that GOD is an absolute always existing supreme entity that created EVERYTHING including all the materials, space, and time itself, or one imagines that god (little "g") began life as a mere being and product of another's imagination and fabricated the universe out of preexisting materials. This would afford man the thought that he might do the very same. I find such an ideology the concoction of Satan and not Biblical/Christian truth.

So, to bring this once again around to the original thought , NO, I do not see man having the power or being given the power to release people out of HELL once the door of death is shut. Our works do not save us and they most certainly are not going to save one already committed to utter darkness.

Edited October 9, 2018 by LittleNipper

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

I see you are on a journey. I would never desire to hurt you --- you must realize that.

You actions testify otherwise: you are continually on here misrepresenting my faith and yours.  That is an act of hostility and not remotely loving.  

[RevTestament]

17 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Numerous explanations have been offered for this verse, ranging from the inane to the sophisticated. 

In verses 1-19, the fact of Christ's resurrection is detailed by Paul. Beginning in verse 20 and going through verse 23, Paul speaks about the order of the resurrection. Christ was the first one raised - in a glorified body - and next will be those who are His at His return. Verses 24 - 29 then mention Christ's reign and the abolition of death. This is when this controversial verse occurs: "Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"

Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mentioned by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79. Bible Knowledge Commentary on 1 Cor. 15:29 The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced.

This is exactly the misrepresentation I talked about earlier. The part in red is pure and utter supposition. The fact that this pagan sect practiced an initiatory sea washing does nothing to show they baptized for their dead. Perhaps if you look up the words of their rite (which happen to survive) you will note there is nothing about the dead in there. There is no surviving evidence I have ever found to support that they baptized their dead nor did any type of proxy baptism. It's pulling straws to support an historically unsupported belief. However, there is some history in Christianity that baptism for the dead was performed. Now which is more historically credible?

[Anakin7]

11 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I see you are on a journey. I would never desire to hurt you --- you must realize that. The issue from the outset is that Mormonism is founded on works. And I can see that a heavy amount of importance is placed on performance rather than encouraging being committed out of love of GOD --- to strive to please HIM for pleasing alone without any need of having too. The extraneous books of Mormon do nothing to promote the GREAT COMMISSION. And the other works are only to prop up "Mormon IDEOLOGY" rather than promote Jesus Christ. The Atonement for me is the doctrine everything else rests on with LOVE being the foundation. And to strive to find out if one will sit on the right or left hand of the Father in heaven is no more appropriate now than it was 2000 years ago --- when a pair of brothers fretted over it. We cannot become as GOD. If anything Jesus the Christ became like unto us. Frankly, I see that this entire CREATION is about GOD interacting with us at our level rather than us imagining ever to be GOD. I find such thoughts akin to Satan's FALL ---  "Did god really say you would die --- oh no, he's holding out on you because he knows when you eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, you will be JUST LIKE him!" 

I used a small "god" to emphasize what Satan seemed to want to imagine GOD to be. To Satan GOD is not the CREATOR of EVERYTHING but a manipulator of what already existed --- and this I believe is where Mormonism and true Christianity begin to be ripped apart. One either believes that GOD is an absolute always existing supreme entity that created EVERYTHING including all the materials, space, and time itself, or one imagines that god (little "g") began life as a mere being and product of another's imagination and fabricated the universe out of preexisting materials. This would afford man the thought that he might do the very same. I find such an ideology the concoction of Satan and not Biblical/Christian truth.

So, to bring this once again around to the original thought , NO, I do not see man having the power or being given the power to release people out of HELL once the door of death is shut. Our works do not save us and they most certainly are not going to save one already committed to utter darkness.

    Thank you for your personal thoughtful reply I appreciate it. Yes The Church Of Jesus Christ is founded on works - the works of The New Covenant which was started in the Great Councils in Heaven that have happened in times past by God The Father the Monarch of The Universe, Jesus Christ the Vice Monarch, Lord of Life, Lord, Savior, Redeemer, Savior, God, King, Master of The Universe, God The Holy Ghost/Spirit the Awesome Testator of the Universe, Arch Angels, Angels, Righteousness, Truth, The True Old Testament Prophets/Hebrews/Israelites, The True New Testament Prophets, Apostles, Seventy, Bishops, Saints, Christians, and all of Gods children. Labors of True agape love must accompany any/all forms/models/versions of actions to serve both God and man. Objective Studies have been done by LDS and non LDS Professors/Scholars/Theologians/Philosophers/Researchers on all Heavenly/Earthly sciences which support and uplift True LDS Doctrine, Teaching, Thought, Practice, Walk, Run, Journey.  His authority and power have been given to mankind once again to perform the Sacred Ordinances of mankind to help them on there journey to return home. True Grace, True Faith, True Repentance, True Baptism, True Gift of the Holy Ghost/Spirit and True Grace Empowered works all working together to justify, sanctify, glorify, and change the nature of man to be even as he [ Christ Jesus] is. Its all in how you look and see the big picture. Time is sacred and short must go, have a True Grace empowered day.

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

Edited October 9, 2018 by Anakin7

[LittleNipper]

13 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

You actions testify otherwise: you are continually on here misrepresenting my faith and yours.  That is an act of hostility and not remotely loving.  

I don't misrepresent my faith. It is what it is according to the Bible I read and study. As for Mormonism, you would have to admit that Mormons do get baptized for dead relations. They do believe that the Book of Mormon is in fact ancient and historically accurate. They do believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. So exactly what did I say in error? I simply don't agree... If disagreement is a hostile act, than perhaps you (being a Mormon) are even more hostile towards those professing to be Christian --- but not Mormon. If anything, it is you duty to prove your faith and if what I say is going to somehow make you uneasy, that is likely a sign that you need to do some more investigation of exactly what you do believe. Study and investigation are good things as long as one is being honest and not trying to turn the light-switch off and live among the shadows. Getting insulted is not going to serve anyone.

Edited October 9, 2018 by LittleNipper

[Jane_Doe]

43 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

I don't misrepresent my faith. 

Your actions on here testify that you believe that salvation comes via man's ability to pass a theology test.  Is that an accurate representation of what you believe?

If you truly believed that a person is saved by faith in Christ-- and not by man's ability to pass a theology test -- you would happily acknowledge that every member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is saved, according to your own theology.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[LittleNipper]

4 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Your actions on here testify that you believe that salvation comes via man's ability to pass a theology test.  Is that an accurate representation of what you believe?

If you truly believed that a person is saved by faith in Christ-- and not by man's ability to pass a theology test -- you would happily acknowledge that every member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is saved, according to your own theology.

Actually, I fully believe one is saved entirely through the Lord Jesus Christ by faith in His vicarious death, burial, and resurrection alone. I firmly believe the Holy Spirit then begins a work in such individuals so that they become more and more attuned with the Holy Word of GOD. No one goes heaven based upon the church one attends or the depth of its doctrines.

[LittleNipper]

3 hours ago, Anon the Great said:

This is not to be mean, but Mormonism is closer to the truth than your simplistic views of heaven and hell promoted after the 16th century.  They are not what the 1st century church believed.  The "classical" view of the atonement is what everyone in early Christianity believed, for the scriptures teach Christ is a ransom payment of our sins, although it has been twisted into err over the many centuries. 

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom [payment] for many. (Matt 20:28)

All the theologians know of the changes, but they do not inform the public of the historical past that is well-documented:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christus_Victor

Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon did see resurrected beings living in the glory of the sun, moon, and stars living on many different planets in vision like a silent 3D movie, and the visual images were shown by the power of God to teach the truth.  However, the words given to describe the 3d "video tape" are lies revealed by the fallen sons of God to confused the LDS Church. There are no laws in heaven against the Holy Spirit, as Paul taught,  but laws only exist for mortality to govern the body by the Golden Rule.  The Ten Commandments do not exist in eternity:

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Matt 5:18)

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Gal 5:22-23)

What Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon saw is God's power saving everyone in the afterlife, and He deserves all the glory for it.  That is the true part.  The false part is the fallen sons of God defining the meaning of what they saw in D&C section 76.  It.is half-true, not fully true.  Your view is 100% false, not even partly true, and because the LDS are very close to the Holy Spirit,  they LDS will not believe what you teach because it is 100% false about the afterlife.  They can only believe the truth that God will save everyone by His grace, and no one is going to be tortured in hell forever.  Th e cross demonstrates the ideas of God are more powerful than the ideas of Lucifer, and as Paul taught, the cross is the power of God unto salvation.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

What Jesus did at Calvary atoned for everyone's sin ---- to all who repent and come to believe on HIM during this lifetime it is a free gift of GOD.

[Storm Rider]

19 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

What Jesus did at Calvary atoned for everyone's sin ---- to all who repent and come to believe on HIM during this lifetime it is a free gift of GOD.

So baptism has no value according to you and your interpretation of scripture?

[Jane_Doe]

34 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

Actually, I fully believe one is saved entirely through the Lord Jesus Christ by faith in His vicarious death, burial, and resurrection alone. I firmly believe the Holy Spirit then begins a work in such individuals so that they become more and more attuned with the Holy Word of GOD. No one goes heaven based upon the church one attends or the depth of its doctrines.

And do you would happily acknowledge that every member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is saved, according to your own theology?

[LittleNipper]

12 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

And do you would happily acknowledge that every member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is saved, according to your own theology?

I don't know. Salvation is a personal relationship between an individual and GOD.  It's not a group effort.

[Jane_Doe]

4 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I don't know. Salvation is a personal relationship between an individual and GOD.  It's not a group effort.

How about you ask individuals here, the same way you ask individuals in your church?

[LittleNipper]

7 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

How about you ask individuals here, the same way you ask individuals in your church?

OK, "Are you a Born-again Bible believing Christian?"

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

OK, "Are you a Born-again Bible believing Christian?"

Yes.

I'm not a Creed believer, or a Protestant, but I am indeed a born-again Bible believing Christian.  I love Jesus Christ- He is my lord and Savior, to whom I devote every day to and celebrate.  

[LittleNipper]

10 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Yes.

I'm not a Creed believer, or a Protestant, but I am indeed a born-again Bible believing Christian.  I love Jesus Christ- He is my lord and Savior, to whom I devote every day to and celebrate.  

Will I so glad. I thought you might not accept the TRINITY.

[Anakin7]

2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Will I so glad. I thought you might not accept the TRINITY.

Which form/model/version of the Trinity a rev you referring ?,  Athanasion,  Augustinian, Western, Eastern, Economic, Essential,  Social, Bultman ?.  True LDS Doctrine, Teaching, Thought, Practice, Walk, Run is in The True Godhead/Trinity, or a Ancient, Monarch, Eastern, Economic, Social, Godhead, Trinity. May True Grace abound with you and those you Love, this day

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinal, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrrior

[Anakin7]

14 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

OK, "Are you a Born-again Bible believing Christian?"

    As for me yes, I have a True Grace Empowered Belief, Faith in God The Son Christ Jesus as The Vice Monarch, Lord of Life, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, God King, Master of The Universe and of my Life. I have been Baptized for the remission of my sins, given the Awesome gift of God the Holy Ghost Spirit and Truly Born Again as in Holy Writ in the middle east some 2000 years ago. 

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

Edited October 11, 2018 by Anakin7

[Jane_Doe]

5 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Will I so glad. I thought you might not accept the TRINITY.

You just moved the goal posts from:

1) Salvation coming from believing in Christ

2) to salvation coming from man being able to pass a theology test.

Which do you *truly* believe?

[LittleNipper]

6 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

You just moved the goal posts from:

1) Salvation coming from believing in Christ

2) to salvation coming from man being able to pass a theology test.

Which do you *truly* believe?

Christians believe that Jesus was/is GOD in the flesh, and as part of the Godhead, ALWAYS existed. HE was/is not a created being but one with the FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT eternally. In other-words, GOD HIMSELF saved man vicariously by being nailed to the cross. One doesn't have to understand it, one must simply come to acknowledge it ---- fully understanding that NO ONE OR NOTHING BUT GOD IS TO BE WORSHIPED. The Bible clearly says that there is only ONE GOD. We are not to have any other gods before us ---- and yet the Bible says that we are to worship Christ . When we see Christ , we see the FATHER. To be saved one must be baptized by the indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT. The water immersion is only an illustration of dying to self and arising in the LORD. So salvation comes from acknowledging that JESUS CHRIST is GOD with us (Messiah). He is not a created being or angel. He is GOD who emptied HIMSELF and assumed a human form. JESUS never had a human father. HE applied Mary as the vehicle through which to gain a human body. There was no act of sex involved; however, His Spirit was/is GOD. 

The key point is that GOD HIMSELF saves and not by any other created being or an act of man --- other than by a personal faith that GOD HIMSELF nurtures through the COMFORTER...

Edited October 12, 2018 by LittleNipper

[Jane_Doe]

1 minute ago, LittleNipper said:

The key point is that GOD HIMSELF saves.

And is that dependent on man's ability to pass a theology test?

[LittleNipper]

8 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

And is that dependent on man's ability to pass a theology test?

NOPE! What did Thomas know regarding doctrine? …27Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28Thomas replied, “My Lord and myGod!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”…

[Jane_Doe]

16 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

NOPE! What did Thomas know regarding doctrine? …27Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28Thomas replied, “My Lord and myGod!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”…

Then whether or not a person properly recites post-Biblical creeds doesn't matter to salvation? 

[Storm Rider]

19 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

Christians believe that Jesus was/is GOD in the flesh, and as part of the Godhead, ALWAYS existed. HE was/is not a created being but one with the FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT eternally. In other-words, GOD HIMSELF saved man vicariously by being nailed to the cross. One doesn't have to understand it, one must simply come to acknowledge it ---- fully understanding that NO ONE OR NOTHING BUT GOD IS TO BE WORSHIPED. The Bible clearly says that there is only ONE GOD. We are not to have any other gods before us ---- and yet the Bible says that we are to worship Christ . When we see Christ , we see the FATHER. To be saved one must be baptized by the indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT. The water immersion is only an illustration of dying to self and arising in the LORD. So salvation comes from acknowledging that JESUS CHRIST is GOD with us (Messiah). He is not a created being or angel. He is GOD who emptied HIMSELF and assumed a human form. JESUS never had a human father. HE applied Mary as the vehicle through which to gain a human body. There was no act of sex involved; however, His Spirit was/is GOD. 

The key point is that GOD HIMSELF saves and not by any other created being or an act of man --- other than by a personal faith that GOD HIMSELF nurtures through the COMFORTER...

4

When you say GOD HIMSELF saved man - which man are you talking about? God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit?  

You seem to be going in a lot of areas that would be declared heresy by orthodox Christianity. You state God himself saves by no act of man. If this is true then no individual needs to do anything because they are already saved by an act of God. You do follow your statement up with a qualifier - "other than by a personal faith". Are you now saying that a "personal faith" is the act that saves a child of God or not? 

You might want to do some study about some of the heresies. Start with Monarchianism and Modalism. What you have stated above is directly out of Modalism and is not a teaching of Trinity as understood and taught by Orthodoxy.