mfbukowski Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: I think you bring up an interesting point about how baptism for the dead detracts from the living who are in need today. To put things into perspective, some estimate that over 100 BILLION humans have lived on earth.https://www.prb.org/howmanypeoplehaveeverlivedonearth/ "Modern” Homo sapiens (that is, people who were roughly like we are now) first walked the Earth about 50,000 years ago. Since then, more than 108 billion members of our species have ever been born, according to estimates by Population Reference Bureau (PRB)." There are technically billions of spirits waiting in a spirit prison, if I am not mistaken. If all things are possible with God, is it not then possible to perform one mass baptism for all humans who have ever lived? Additionally, The Millenium sounds like a painful experience if it's hundreds of thousands of baptisms a day. 😉 Kind of silly to think this way, but with millions of priesthood holders--- if you are going to think that way I don't think quite quite holds up. How may priesthood holders will there be? Do you have that statistic figured out as well?
Ouagadougou Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Kind of silly to think this way, but with millions of priesthood holders--- if you are going to think that way I don't think quite quite holds up. How may priesthood holders will there be? Do you have that statistic figured out as well? Kind of silly to consider ALL humans who have ever lived on earth? Or do you think the earth is only 6,000 years old, so there technically aren't that many humans who have ever lived (who are currently waiting in a spirit prison)? Regardless of the number of priesthood holders, it's still hundreds of thousands of individual baptisms a day, for 1,000 years. IMO, an all-powerful God (who can do all things), might just have an easier method/requirement. How many active, temple-worthy members are there today? Not many, IMO, when you compare that to the 7.6 billion people on earth alive today. Mormonism today only covers a tiny fraction of humanity...
mfbukowski Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said: Kind of silly to consider ALL humans who have ever lived on earth? Or do you think the earth is only 6,000 years old, so there technically aren't that many humans who have ever lived (who are currently waiting in a spirit prison)? Regardless of the number of priesthood holders, it's still hundreds of thousands of individual baptisms a day, for 1,000 years. IMO, an all-powerful God (who can do all things), might just have an easier method/requirement. How many active, temple-worthy members are there today? Not many, IMO, when you compare that to the 7.6 billion people on earth alive today. Mormonism today only covers a tiny fraction of humanity... Foolish to take it literally but if that's what you are assuming, I will answer. Suppose there really are 15 million members NOW- and presumably there will be more in the future. That means there are NOW around 7.5 million Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood holders who could theoretically baptize in the temple. Not to mention (yet) others being resurrected daily Suppose they did 10 a day. I mean it is the Millenium- what the heck else are they going to do ?? Hang out on Facebook? 10 baptisms takes like what? 20 minutes? "Regardless of how many Priesthood holders"?? Are you kidding? How about millions then BILLIONS of priesthood holders?? 7,500,000 x10= 75,000,000 per 20 minutes. Let's say the boys get ambitious and decide to work for 2 hours a day instead of twenty minutes!! That's 6x seventy five million for every 2 hours which is 450 million every TWO HOURS- and that is with Today's level of membership. And if they work for 8 hours? 1.8 BILLION PER DAY!! And a THOUSAND YEARS? But wait! That's not all!! And that is using TODAY'S numbers- knowing that "EVERY knee shall bow and every tongue confess". And as new ones are resurrected and converted- after "confessing Jesus Christ as their savior and being baptized" - you get a geometric progression. Baptized/resurrected today- or however it works- they already have the Melchizedek Priesthood by definition. They are doing temple ordinances and full endowments the" day " after they are resurrected themselves! We have new service missionaries doing that right now in many temples- in effect- they get endowed and within a few weeks are endowing others after being called as temple workers! So tomorrow there are now 1.8 BILLION Priesthood holders..... And the day after that..... And the day after that..... in a geometric progression..... At that rate- a hundred billion?? Child's play, pretty much literally since Aaronic priesthood holders can now baptize in the temple. So as absurd as it is to think about the numbers- your logic doesn't work. Edited October 23, 2018 by mfbukowski
Ouagadougou Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Foolish to take it literally but if that's what you are assuming, I will answer. Suppose there really are 15 million members NOW- and presumably there will be more in the future. That means there are NOW around 7.5 million Aaronic priesthood holders who could theoretically baptize in the temple. Suppose they did 10 a day. I mean it is the Millenium- what the heck else are they going to do ?? Hang out on Facebook? 10 baptisms takes like what? 20 minutes? "Regardless of how many Priesthood holders"?? Are you kidding? How about millions then BILLIONS of priesthood holders?? 7,500,000 x10= 75,000,000 per 20 minutes. Let's say the boys get ambitious and decide to work for 2 hours a day instead of twenty minutes!! That's 6x seventy five million for every 2 hours which is 450 million every TWO HOURS- and that is with Today's level of membership. And if they work for 8 hours? 1.8 BILLION PER DAY!! And a THOUSAND YEARS? But wait! That's not all!! And that is using TODAY'S numbers- knowing that "EVERY knee shall bow and every tongue confess". And as new ones are resurrected and converted- after "confessing Jesus Christ as their savior and being baptized" - you get a geometric progression. Baptized/resurrected today- or however it works- they already have the Melchizedek Priesthood by definition. They are doing temple ordinances and full endowments the" day " after they are resurrected themselves! We have new service missionaries doing that right now in many temples- in effect- they get endowed and within a few weeks are endowing others after being called as temple workers! So tomorrow there are now 1.8 BILLION Priesthood holders..... And the day after that..... And the day after that..... So as absurd as it is to think about the numbers- your logic doesn't work. I'm just pointing out the number of humans who have lived on the earth. Foolish to take it literally? Then why SO much emphasis on temple work? To me, it all seems like a lot of unnecessary work God could solve with the snap of his finger...
mfbukowski Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: I'm just pointing out the number of humans who have lived on the earth. Foolish to take it literally? Then why SO much emphasis on temple work? To me, it all seems like a lot of unnecessary work God could solve with the snap of his finger... Sorry you do not understand the temple at all. That's like saying we should all be born with Phd's in philosophy and science and every single subject known to mankind. We get to learn stuff. We are stupid. We cannot make it go. God can make it go. But first we have to learn. 2
Ouagadougou Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Sorry you do not understand the temple at all. That's like saying we should all be born with Phd's in philosophy and science and every single subject known to mankind. We get to learn stuff. We are stupid. We cannot make it go. God can make it go. But first we have to learn. I've been to the temple many times when I was an active member...
mfbukowski Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 27 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: I've been to the temple many times when I was an active member... So did God fix you with a snap of a finger? Did you learn from all those experiences? Can you see now why God does not do it "with a snap of a finger"? If not, then maybe you missed something?
Ouagadougou Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 54 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: So did God fix you with a snap of a finger? Did you learn from all those experiences? Can you see now why God does not do it "with a snap of a finger"? If not, then maybe you missed something? I learned from my experiences that my time/energy can be better spent helping those who are alive than those who are dead.
RevTestament Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: I learned from my experiences that my time/energy can be better spent helping those who are alive than those who are dead. Then that is what you should do - leave the proxy work for the dead to those with a spiritual connection to the work.
RevTestament Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 4 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Sorry you do not understand the temple at all. That's like saying we should all be born with Phd's in philosophy and science and every single subject known to mankind. We get to learn stuff. We are stupid. We cannot make it go. God can make it go. But first we have to learn. Come now - we aren't going to go to the stupid Gungan theme again? I like both Star Wars and Star Trek, but meesa being no likey Gungan. Meesa having hard enough time leaning it without having to learn Packled. 1
Anakin7 Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 14 hours ago, LittleNipper said: I firmly believe that water baptism is important; however, the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT is the key factor. The reality is that not everyone who has been saved through the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ/Messiah has had an opportunity to be water immersed. This is totally true of the one Thief on the cross next to Jesus. He was never baptized. If water baptism was an absolute must, than every baby and even those such as the Thief on the cross could not be saved. It is either an absolute have to or it is an important ritual to observe when possible. It cannot be both. LittleNipper another Grace Gift for you http://www.beBaptized.org/BaptismThethief.htm http://www.beBaptized.org/diebefore.htm The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian Warrior
Anakin7 Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, LittleNipper said: I firmly believe that water baptism is important; however, the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT is the key factor. The reality is that not everyone who has been saved through the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ/Messiah has had an opportunity to be water immersed. This is totally true of the one Thief on the cross next to Jesus. He was never baptized. If water baptism was an absolute must, than every baby and even those such as the Thief on the cross could not be saved. It is either an absolute have to or it is an important ritual to observe when possible. It cannot be both. LittleNipper another Grace Gift for you http://www.beBaptized.org/BaptismThethief.htm The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian Warrior Edited October 23, 2018 by Anakin7
Ouagadougou Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 8 hours ago, RevTestament said: Then that is what you should do - leave the proxy work for the dead to those with a spiritual connection to the work. Yep...that is exactly what I have done.
mfbukowski Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 11 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: I learned from my experiences that my time/energy can be better spent helping those who are alive than those who are dead. So you were only going to help dead people, and not learning about life from the symbolism?
Ouagadougou Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: So you were only going to help dead people, and not learning about life from the symbolism? Symbolism/masonry...but I won't go into details...
mfbukowski Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 42 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Symbolism/masonry...but I won't go into details... No, I have studied masonry extensively and so what if it IS masonry? There is nothing to learn from masonry? We disagree - no point in going forward 1
LittleNipper Posted October 26, 2018 Author Posted October 26, 2018 On 10/18/2018 at 8:11 AM, Anakin7 said: LittleNipper in response to your thoughts on Water Baptism not essential to True Salvation and in case you did not see/read my links above - http://www.BeBaptized.org . And also on just believing on Christ Jesus for Salvation [ There is no once saved always saved in Holy Writ ] - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm . The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior So when do you know that you have been snatched from the hand of Jesus? How do you know that you are saved right now? How do you know that you haven't lost your salvation? You sound like a person without any security.
LittleNipper Posted October 26, 2018 Author Posted October 26, 2018 On 10/22/2018 at 8:55 PM, mfbukowski said: Kind of cute that you think that you know EVERYTHING that Jesus did NOT do. VERY ODD. Do you have that ability with other people as well? You have to get a job being a judge then- the first infallible judge ever!! Oddly, I'm under the impression that's exactly what Mormons believe--- that they know everything Jesus ever did and are about keeping all those nasty denominations at bay...
LittleNipper Posted October 26, 2018 Author Posted October 26, 2018 On 10/22/2018 at 11:17 PM, mfbukowski said: Sorry you do not understand the temple at all. That's like saying we should all be born with Phd's in philosophy and science and every single subject known to mankind. We get to learn stuff. We are stupid. We cannot make it go. God can make it go. But first we have to learn. Again, why should anyone outside Mormonism know what Mormons do in their shrines --- outsiders are not invited in. In fact, Mormons who are not up to "snuff" are not invited inside. I can attend any college and visit any classroom I wish --- I'm just not able to get credits for what I don't pay for. But I can certainly find out exactly what's happening inside and not cause a Federal case.
LittleNipper Posted October 26, 2018 Author Posted October 26, 2018 On 10/23/2018 at 12:14 PM, mfbukowski said: So you were only going to help dead people, and not learning about life from the symbolism? I believe there is far more to learn interacting with one's neighbors than being dunked for the dead who take no notice.
Anakin7 Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, LittleNipper said: So when do you know that you have been snatched from the hand of Jesus? How do you know that you are saved right now? How do you know that you haven't lost your salvation? You sound like a person without any security. True Christian /Biblical Doctrine, Teaching, Thought, Practice, Walk, Run, Journey is a True Conditional Salvation Soteriology which there are misconceptions about - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/misconceptions.htm and a response to your 1st inquiry - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/john1028.htm thank you for asking and caring. May True Grace be with you. The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In his Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited October 26, 2018 by Anakin7
mfbukowski Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Oddly, I'm under the impression that's exactly what Mormons believe--- that they know everything Jesus ever did and are about keeping all those nasty denominations at bay... You totally reversed it. What you said was that Mormons know everything that Jesus did not do Edited October 26, 2018 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Again, why should anyone outside Mormonism know what Mormons do in their shrines --- outsiders are not invited in. In fact, Mormons who are not up to "snuff" are not invited inside. I can attend any college and visit any classroom I wish --- I'm just not able to get credits for what I don't pay for. But I can certainly find out exactly what's happening inside and not cause a Federal case. Just wrong. You do not understand the subject so you have no credibility. Edited October 26, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: I believe there is far more to learn interacting with one's neighbors than being dunked for the dead who take no notice. Yet again that is a non sequitur. You are misinformed. Edited October 26, 2018 by mfbukowski 2
USU78 Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 On 9/30/2018 at 10:29 PM, JAHS said: When I was on my mission in Austria my companion and I took part in that procesion on the Day of the Dead. The procession ended at the cemetery where the local priest went through and blessed all the graves. It was an interesting and educational experience. Hoab nit gwusst, dass Du a Weaner warscht. 1
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