Mormon Women's Group Call on LDS Senators to Investigate Allegations Against Kavanaugh

[bluebell]

(I used mormon in the title of the thread because it's the title of the article).

Mormon Women's group calls on.....

"A coalition of women from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on Tuesday urged the Senate Judiciary Committee to suspend any confirmation vote on Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh until an investigation is completed into claims of sexual misconduct.

The Mormon Women for Ethical Government, which identified itself as a nonpartisan group comprising about 6,000 members, directed its message at every member of the judiciary panel but specifically called on the four Mormons on the committee, Sens. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.), Mike Lee (R-Utah) and Mike Crapo (R-Idaho.)

“Our mutual faith teaches that any sexual abuse or assault in any context is contemptible and worthy of the most severe condemnation,” the group said in a statement. “If these accusations are proved false, an investigation will prevent harm to the court’s legitimacy. If they are true, then Judge Kavanaugh must not be confirmed.”

 

Has anyone ever heard of this group?  This is the first time I've heard of it.  Kudos to them though for getting involved.

 

"Earlier this month, Christine Blasey Ford accused the nominee of pinning her to bed and trying to remove her clothes when they were both at a party during their high school years. A second woman, Deborah Ramirez, came forward Sunday and alleged that Kavanaugh exposed himself and thrust his penis in her face at a party when they both attended Yale University. Both have asked for an  FBI investigation into their claims.

Kavanaugh has vehemently denied the allegations.

“Such allegations must be taken seriously and thoroughly investigated,” Tuesday’s letter reads. “If we brush them aside, or minimize them, or excuse them away because ‘he was young’ or ‘he was drunk,’ we are sending an appalling and incredibly damaging message to both the young women AND the young men of our country.”

Sharlee Mullins Glenn, the group’s founder and president, told The New York Times that none of the four senators has responded to the letter."

"That decision has prompted condemnation, including from the group of women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS).

“Stop pushing forward despite the clear objections of Dr. Blasey Ford, Deborah Ramirez, and millions of other women across the country,” the group wrote Tuesday. “Women comprise half of your constituents. If you truly respect women, then demonstrate it by honoring our requests to go slowly here. The appalling audacity of some of your colleagues in declaring their intention to simply take this seat with or without the broad support of women everywhere is just as troubling as the allegations against Kavanaugh. In fact, the irony is chilling.”

 

I don't know if it's going to be possible to discuss this issue without things getting political, but I thought it was interesting enough to give it a try.  Should the LDS senators involved care at all what the Mormon Women for Ethical Government think?

[Duncan]

I think he's guilty but I also think this group would have more sway with certain LDS senators than others, but how long that sway or pull lasts I don't know

[Walden]

Hatch has already questioned the authenticity of Dr. Ford's accusation and has insinuated that her recollection is faulty, without hearing a single word of testimony from her. 

I do not have any confidence that the LDS senators will consider the plea from this coalition of LDS women.

[alter idem]

Ford and Ramirez have no evidence at all to prove what they are alleging.  They don't remember dates, times, places, and they can't even find anyone who will back up their most recent claims.  Kavanaugh has strongly denied their accusations and he's got a lot of people who support him, saying that this is completely out of character for the young man he was back 35 years ago.  Also, he's had SIX background checks in the last 35 years and never even a hint of this kind of behavior came up.  

These dubious, unsubstantiated allegations are designed to push Pres. Trump to withdraw his name or to pressure Kavanaugh to withdraw his name for consideration. What a desipicable way to try to force one's political will on the country.  So,  I have to wonder why the 'Mormon Women for ethical Government' would even get involved in this?  They sure don't speak for me, and I'm a Mormon Woman who cares about ethical government.  I also don't subscribe to dirty politics.  

 

If I was an 'LDS' senator, I'd research this organization and look to see where they get their funding and who are the principle organizers--that will tell a lot about their motives and what they REALLY want out of this action on their part.  THEN I would determine how to respond.  

[Gray]

11 minutes ago, alter idem said:

Ford and Ramirez have no evidence at all to prove what they are alleging.  They don't remember dates, times, places, and they can't even find anyone who will back up their most recent claims. 

Ford has four corroborating witnesses.

 

 

11 minutes ago, alter idem said:

Kavanaugh has strongly denied their accusations and he's got a lot of people who support him, saying that this is completely out of character for the young man he was back 35 years ago.  Also, he's had SIX background checks in the last 35 years and never even a hint of this kind of behavior came up. 

Kavanaugh  has lied multiple times under oath. He lies about big and small things. He is not credible.

[snowflake]

14 minutes ago, Gray said:

Kavanaugh  has lied multiple times under oath. He lies about big and small things. He is not credible.

What has he lied about under oath? 

[snowflake]

27 minutes ago, Gray said:

Ford has four corroborating witnesses.

 

Problem is that none of them can confirm what supposedly happened. 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

Ford has four corroborating witnesses.

 

 

Kavanaugh  has lied multiple times under oath. He lies about big and small things. He is not credible.

Who are the witnesses and how do they corroborate her claim?

And Kavanaugh has not lied under oath. 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, snowflake said:

What has he lied about under oath? 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/brett-kavanaugh-misled-the-senate-under-oath-i-cannot-support-his-nomination/2018/09/13/ea75c740-b77d-11e8-b79f-f6e31e555258_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7ee01593cf7d

 

 

 

[Gray]

2 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Problem is that none of them can confirm what supposedly happened. 

They can confirm that Ford was talking about this years and years before Kavanaugh was nominated. By contrast, Kavanaugh's skeezy "character witness" is now in hiding, after having deleted gobs of pseudo pornographic teen pictures from his social media.

[Gray]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Who are the witnesses and how do the corroborate her claim?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/09/26/brett-kavanaugh-christine-blasey-ford-told-four-people-sexual-assault-claims/1429270002/

 

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And Kavanaugh has not lied under oath. 

Kavanaugh has lied under oath repeatedly.

[bluebell]

Can we at least try not to make this political?   Let's focus on the last quote from the WFEG-

“Stop pushing forward despite the clear objections of....millions of other women across the country,” the group wrote Tuesday. “Women comprise half of your constituents. If you truly respect women, then demonstrate it by honoring our requests to go slowly here. The appalling audacity of some of your colleagues in declaring their intention to simply take this seat with or without the broad support of women everywhere is just as troubling as the allegations against Kavanaugh. In fact, the irony is chilling.”

Do LDS politicians (given their professed spiritual beliefs) have a responsibility to care about what LDS members want?  Do LDS senators (given their professed spiritual beliefs) have a responsibility to care about what women want?  

[alter idem]

28 minutes ago, Gray said:

Ford has four corroborating witnesses.

 

 

Kavanaugh  has lied multiple times under oath. He lies about big and small things. He is not credible.

 

Who are these 'witnesses' and what are the claiming to corroborate?  You need to be very careful in this, the statements must be looked at carefully and you must read and listen critically to what is said.  Are they claiming to have actually witnessed the act?  Are they claiming that they witnessed  Kavanaugh do this?  I know of no witnesses who have gone so far as to back up these claims by these two women for two separate incidents.  

You say there are four 'corroborating witnesses'...were they present at Ford's allegation or Ramirez'?  Do they claim to have attended both parties--one attack was supposed to have taken place at a high school party and one was in college.

 

To call him a liar and say he's lied multiple times under oath---how do you know this?  Do you know him personally to be able to say 'he lies about big and small things'?  Is this simply your opinion or do you have evidence to make such a claim?

 

The problem here is that Ford and Ramirez are the accusers--in a court of law, that puts them on the prosecution side and Kavanaugh is the defendant.   A defendant is considered innocent until proven guilty and the burden of proof lies with the accusers.  Kavanaugh does not have to prove his innocence, they have to prove his guilt.   This is being forgotten in the quest to destroy this man so that they can prevent him from serving on the Supreme court.

 

Many have spoken in 'support' of the accusers in their claims.  What does that mean?  'Support' does not mean they have any evidence or actual knowledge to offer.  

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Has anyone ever heard of this group?  This is the first time I've heard of it.  Kudos to them though for getting involved.

I hadn't heard of this group before, but I'm happy to see them getting involved and speaking up on this important issue.

[PacMan]

I don't understand the purpose, necessity, or doctrinal justification for these fringe/sub-culture/special interest groups.

1 Nephi 4:17 "There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God."

If people want their voices to be heard, I wish they would do it without prostituting their association with the church.  Smells a bit like priest-craft, if you ask me.

Edited September 26, 2018 by PacMan

[PacMan]

20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can we at least try not to make this political?   Let's focus on the last quote from the WFEG-

“Stop pushing forward despite the clear objections of....millions of other women across the country,” the group wrote Tuesday. “Women comprise half of your constituents. If you truly respect women, then demonstrate it by honoring our requests to go slowly here. The appalling audacity of some of your colleagues in declaring their intention to simply take this seat with or without the broad support of women everywhere is just as troubling as the allegations against Kavanaugh. In fact, the irony is chilling.”

Do LDS politicians (given their professed spiritual beliefs) have a responsibility to care about what LDS members want?  Do LDS senators (given their professed spiritual beliefs) have a responsibility to care about what women want?  

No.  LDS senators have a responsibility for the institutional integrity of the system and upholding the constitution.  The allegations are serious.  But just as in criminal law, there needs to be a type of 'statutes of limitations' for these types of allegations during the nominating process.  There needs to be a cutoff point for these 11th hour allegations.  It is too easy to turn these nominations into a circus.  And to the extent that these self-proclaimed Mormon women (or anyone else) want something contrary to a sensible and sustainable process, they should be ignored.

Edited September 26, 2018 by PacMan

[Exiled]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I think he's guilty but I also think this group would have more sway with certain LDS senators than others, but how long that sway or pull lasts I don't know

What makes you think he is guilty?

[Gray]

A new sworn affidavit from another witness:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kavanaugh-accuser-michael-avenatti-reveals-julie-swetnick-today-2018-09-26/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gray]

18 minutes ago, alter idem said:

 

Who are these 'witnesses' and what are the claiming to corroborate?  You need to be very careful in this, the statements must be looked at carefully and you must read and listen critically to what is said.  Are they claiming to have actually witnessed the act?  Are they claiming that they witnessed  Kavanaugh do this?  I know of no witnesses who have gone so far as to back up these claims by these two women for two separate incidents.  

You say there are four 'corroborating witnesses'...were they present at Ford's allegation or Ramirez'?  Do they claim to have attended both parties--one attack was supposed to have taken place at a high school party and one was in college.

To call him a liar and say he's lied multiple times under oath---how do you know this?  Do you know him personally to be able to say 'he lies about big and small things'?  Is this simply your opinion or do you have evidence to make such a claim?

 

Linked are posted earlier in the thread.

 

 

18 minutes ago, alter idem said:

The problem here is that Ford and Ramirez are the accusers--in a court of law, that puts them on the prosecution side and Kavanaugh is the defendant.   A defendant is considered innocent until proven guilty and the burden of proof lies with the accusers.  Kavanaugh does not have to prove his innocence, they have to prove his guilt.   This is being forgotten in the quest to destroy this man so that they can prevent him from serving on the Supreme court.

Many have spoken in 'support' of the accusers in their claims.  What does that mean?  'Support' does not mean they have any evidence or actual knowledge to offer.  

 

This is essentially a job interview. Any candidate for any job would long ago been disqualified merely for lying during the interview, as Kavanaugh did. The credible accusations of sexual assault just add more and more weight to his unsuitability for this position.

[alter idem]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can we at least try not to make this political?   Let's focus on the last quote from the WFEG-

“Stop pushing forward despite the clear objections of....millions of other women across the country,” the group wrote Tuesday. “Women comprise half of your constituents. If you truly respect women, then demonstrate it by honoring our requests to go slowly here. The appalling audacity of some of your colleagues in declaring their intention to simply take this seat with or without the broad support of women everywhere is just as troubling as the allegations against Kavanaugh. In fact, the irony is chilling.”

Do LDS politicians (given their professed spiritual beliefs) have a responsibility to care about what LDS members want?  Do LDS senators (given their professed spiritual beliefs) have a responsibility to care about what women want?  

I looked up the group and found out information on them;

 

https://www.standard.net/lifestyle/faith/mormon-women-s-group-dives-into-civic-engagement-in-wake/article_a3c334e8-cc9d-5be2-b267-9d33bcb9aff7.html

 

This group was organized as a reaction against Donald Trump winning the presidency.  Their efforts are directed at opposing him, so it's not surprising that they've taken up this cause.

 

I'm not sure how you can try to keep this non-political when this whole thing is  so obviously politically driven.

[Duncan]

17 minutes ago, Exiled said:

What makes you think he is guilty?

his friends, yearbook, that wasted: tales of gen X bart thing, his interviews he doesn't really answer the questions. FWIW though I can't wait for all this to blow over! it would be nice if their was an investigation of some kind, why sit down for Fox news and not the FBI?

Edited September 26, 2018 by Duncan

[provoman]

32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can we at least try not to make this political?   Let's focus on the last quote from the WFEG-

“Stop pushing forward despite the clear objections of....millions of other women across the country,” the group wrote Tuesday. “Women comprise half of your constituents. If you truly respect women, then demonstrate it by honoring our requests to go slowly here. The appalling audacity of some of your colleagues in declaring their intention to simply take this seat with or without the broad support of women everywhere is just as troubling as the allegations against Kavanaugh. In fact, the irony is chilling.”

Do LDS politicians (given their professed spiritual beliefs) have a responsibility to care about what LDS members want?  Do LDS senators (given their professed spiritual beliefs) have a responsibility to care about what women want?  

Public officials serve the people regardless of the peoples religion.

 

[Duncan]

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can we at least try not to make this political?   Let's focus on the last quote from the WFEG-

“Stop pushing forward despite the clear objections of....millions of other women across the country,” the group wrote Tuesday. “Women comprise half of your constituents. If you truly respect women, then demonstrate it by honoring our requests to go slowly here. The appalling audacity of some of your colleagues in declaring their intention to simply take this seat with or without the broad support of women everywhere is just as troubling as the allegations against Kavanaugh. In fact, the irony is chilling.”

Do LDS politicians (given their professed spiritual beliefs) have a responsibility to care about what LDS members want?  Do LDS senators (given their professed spiritual beliefs) have a responsibility to care about what women want?  

I think they should at least listen to their concerns, besides no politician lasts forever

[alter idem]

7 minutes ago, Gray said:

 

Linked are posted earlier in the thread.

 

 

 

This is essentially a job interview. Any candidate for any job would long ago been disqualified merely for lying during the interview, as Kavanaugh did. The credible accusations of sexual assault just add more and more weight to his unsuitability for this position.

Do you realize the precedent which is set when unsubstantiated allegations (these three accusers are all bringing forward allegations with no evidence to support their claims) are allowed to destroy a person's character, their reputations and opportunities?  Is this the world you want to live in?  What if someone makes an accusation against you and there is no evidence to support it, should the community believe the accuser because they've made an accusation--regardless of no evidence?  This is not how it used to be done in America, but I'm afraid that is the way we are headed.  We are headed down a dangerous road.

[Storm Rider]

I have never heard of them until your post, Bluebell. 

I guess if I was in a Congressman's shoes I would want to know who they are - is it a legitimate group. What have been their past actions? How does the group identify their claims - i.e. in what way are they LDS women specifically for this group? 

I am more than a little suspicious of any last minute, alleged action against any potential supreme court nominee. I have as much faith in those types of allegations as I do about allegations that President Trump is a kind, thoughtful, circumspect leader.

The environment in Washington D.C. is more toxic than it has ever been. Do I think either party would brazenly derail any Supreme Court nominee by whatever means possible? Absolutely and without question. 

Do I care what type of teenager a potential politician was? No, why would I?  I want to know what they have done as an adult; how have they lived and how have they governed in previous positions....after I have gained an understanding of their political positions. 

Lastly, I have met five people that have each alleged that Senator Feinstein brutally touched them inappropriately when they were in elementary school. The FBI should be called upon to investigate their serious allegations. Each has indicated that their experiences demoralized them and derailed them from having a happy life. Their occupations are a surgeon, an entrepreneur, a judge, an MD, and a psychologist. They each testify their lives have been a shambles since she horrifically touched them on the playground. They each have gone to counseling and talked about their experiences, but they never talked about Senator Feinstein and their stories don't really corroborate with each other, but that is because their relative counselors each made mistakes taking notes.  Only in American do these types of stories hold water. 

Where does it stop? At what age for distant past actions do we persecute people? Is it during their professional careers? Is it while they were college students? High School students? Junior High students? Elementary school students?  Does anyone ever learn from their actions? Should we as a society recognize that individuals learn from their actions and conclude that what one did 30 years ago has little bearing on the person today if the bad action has never been repeated?  Is there a difference in how we treat people based on their gender?

Edited September 26, 2018 by Storm Rider