My first and only Sam Young resignations*

[Walden]

7 hours ago, why me said:

But on the other hand, the good has saved many lives: from cancer, from alcoholism, drugs etc. And it has kept many people away from the darker side of life. If more people where mormons, the world would be a different place, a much more healthy place to be. So whatever the negatives may be, it cannot compare to the good. Lets hope that even exmembers can be thankful for the good.

Not sure I agree with your conclusion that the world would be a better place if there were more Mormons....it might be a better place for Mormons, but not so much for gays, liberals, atheists, those who like their politics and religion separated, etc., etc.

Personally, I think there are more effective and healthier ways to avoid "the darker side of life" than being Mormon.

[rongo]

26 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

The timing could be just a coincidence, unless you saw some facebook postings that indicated they were supportive of Sam Young and some resignation event, I wouldn't assume that was the catalyst.  Could just be a coincidence.

The thing is, resignations through a law firm seem to have a very small number of degrees of separation. I mean, how does one come upon the idea of resigning through a law firm, except through certain narrow circles? That alone would seem to indicate swimming in certain waters, and spheres of influence. 

[rongo]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I am just curious about what the hangup is?

It doesn't seem that hard to me- what am I missing?   Will no one accept the call?  That's about the only thing I can imagine at the moment.....?

No, as of a couple of weeks ago, the application hadn't yet been submitted. The stake president had asked the ward to fast for him to receive inspiration.

My counselor told me at the game Saturday that there are rumors that a name had been turned down by the First Presidency. I said, "How would anyone know that?" The stake presidency is big on confidentiality (as they should be). I think the long interregnum lends itself to rumor and speculation, but I don't think that one is supported by anything.

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It typically actually takes longer for the FP to do the approvals, typically.  The issue is usually more often when it was submitted.  If the old bishop left unexpectedly it can easily taken longer- or if there is another problem - as there seems to be here.

I notified them in May that I was moving in July. It was also important to give advance notice because I have been a big part of every girls camp the eight years I have been in, so stake YW were relying on my for a number of things (including the extra overnight canoe trip). As of the second week in September, the application hadn't been submitted yet, so it didn't have anything to do with notification.

When I told him in May, I suggested that it would be a good idea to move quickly, because in July Salt Lake is a ghost town because of GA vacation month. I figured it was a good idea to have your birds in hand before July, and we were moving on July 14.

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Wow that is really bad.  You gotta get those reinstatements going while the iron is hot and you have momentum in your favor.

It's like someone apologizing and your answer is "well maybe I will forgive you, maybe not".... I mean how long do you care what the answer is?  Life goes on either in the church or out and in is better!

This reminds me of an inside joke my wife and I and a good friend (former YW president of mine) have, which I shared with my counselor Saturday. Our friend has had the worst time with BYU-Idaho out of Pathway. All communication is done with undergraduate students who are required to give service hours. They know nothing, have had no training, and are not allowed to escalate up to a manager for questions they can't answer. You also can't call and talk to the same person; it goes into queue and you get another random BYU-I undergrad ("Thank you for calling BYU-Idaho online support. My name is Amber, and I'm a sophomore in Family Science. How can I help you?"). My wife hasn't had any issues, but our friend, who has two associate's degrees and just needs a couple of classes to graduate, had none of her credits from her associates recognized. So, BYU-I was requiring her to take freshman English, and, well, everything over. Also, none of her Pell Grant went through, so she was trying to figure that out. Each time she called (and talked to someone else and had to start all over again with explanations), the only response was, "Hmmm. That's a tough one. I don't know what the answer to that is. What's that? No, there's no way you can talk to a manager. What? Yes, that's correct. We don't have a way to transfer you or have you talk to a Supervisor. What? Yes, I have a supervisor, but we're not allowed to transfer you to anybody. I'm supposed to have you send an email to this email address, and you will be contacted." After sending multiple emails (increasingly more pointed), with no response, she began to think that maybe this wasn't the right time, and that nothing working out was a sign for her to move on and pick it up again later. She finally got an email response, and it said (and I'm not joking), "We are sorry, but we are unable to help you with your issues. I hope you find peace.. Thank you for contacting us!"

"I hope you find peace."   That is a big catch phrase among us now, as an inside joke. Any time anybody mentions something that was less than ideal, we all say, "I hope you find peace."  

I shared this with my counselor, because he said the other counselor had emailed the stake president and diplomatically but emphatically told him that a lot of harm is accruing from the continuing lack of a bishop or elders quorum presidency. The response was a terse, "Thank you for taking the initiative to contact me." That's it. 

One of his counselors was bishop of our same ward two bishops ago, and when members have talked to him (he's been assigned to permanently be in our ward until the new bishop is called), he's simply said, "I've given my input and my counsel. That's all I can do." 

I'm really hoping that this ends soon. They are very aware of the urgency and the need, and it is starting to be ridiculous. The elders quorum presidency is also urgent, because of ministering, Sunday 3rd hours, etc. (and the need to have those keys active and functioning). And that one has been completely under the stake's control all along. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by rongo

[RevTestament]

On 9/24/2018 at 8:02 AM, changed said:

I personally went inactive over Sam Young issues - One year ago I was fully active - calling, TR, everything -  I turned in my TR, asked to be released from my calling, and now no longer attend church, all within the last year.  This was from two high priests who should not have been high priests, involved what I now know was years and years and years of abuse.  Calling after calling, child after child, year after year - and the church did nothing but encourage them to attend addiction recov groups.  One of the HP's is now in jail.  The church did NOT put him in jail.  The victims were all on their own through all of this.

My TBM sister-in-law has also left the church over this.

Yes, active members are resigning over this stuff.  

As I have pointed out on another thread, the Church might actually be doing itself a disservice by giving the impression that everything priesthood leaders do is inspired. This really is just not so.

D&C 121:34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

I believe often Church leaders wish to inspire confidence, but the Lord Himself says priesthood leaders, such as those using the priesthood to cover their sins of sexual abuse, can lose their connection with heaven. This doesn't make the Church untrue. The gospel still remains true, but we just live it imperfectly. For the above reasons there really is no perfect system because men who try to live it are imperfect. The Lord has chosen the most perfect system to teach men - give them free agency, and let them learn by their mistakes. This is not a system where the Lord gives perfection to a select few priesthood holders, and to expect that is just not practical nor realistic. I totally understand your grief and pain. I watched my wife go through the exact same things, and she too went inactive. It was just all too much for her to deal with at the time - she was having suicidal ideation. Nevertheless, I eventually led her back to the Church. Why? Because the gospel is the ultimate key to happiness, and I want others to be able to have that key as well. That means I get to live with men and their errors. Sometimes it frustrates me. But, I realize the Lord has been living with the errors of men for generations. Although He too has "left the Church" by letting the Church go apostate, He tries again and again. He will lead you along if you let Him. If priesthood leaders aren't helping, look to the Lord, as they are supposed to do. They are not your only connection with heaven. You hold keys to lead your family. I wish you all the best.

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

The thing is, resignations through a law firm seem to have a very small number of degrees of separation. I mean, how does one come upon the idea of resigning through a law firm, except through certain narrow circles? That alone would seem to indicate swimming in certain waters, and spheres of influence. 

Not necessarily, I think you can find these through a quick google search fairly easily.  

[The Nehor]

I am generally opposed to paying for a law firm (or anyone else) to do something when I could reasonably do it myself.

 

 

 

 

......unless I am feeling particularly lazy.

[Storm Rider]

34 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Not necessarily, I think you can find these through a quick google search fairly easily.  

If someone was going to google a method to resign from the Church you get a host of instructions on how to do it. Just google, "How do I resign from the Mormon Church?"  Scanning the first page I did see a single post that instructed people to hire a lawyer. I think you are straining too hard to admit the reality. If you want to resign you do it free of charge rather than hiring a lawyer. 

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

If someone was going to google a method to resign from the Church you get a host of instructions on how to do it. Just google, "How do I resign from the Mormon Church?"  Scanning the first page I did see a single post that instructed people to hire a lawyer. I think you are straining too hard to admit the reality. If you want to resign you do it free of charge rather than hiring a lawyer. 

When I google search "Resign Mormon Church", the first link that comes up is "QuitMormon.com".

And, their services are free:

Quote

 

What is QuitMormon?

Resigning from the Mormon church (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints) can be a tedious and painfulprocess. If you've decided that you no longer want to be a member of the church, resigning on your own can result in unwanted contact from church leaders and multiple requests before your resignation is finally processed. Our free service lets you avoid this process and provides privacy.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by ALarson

[Storm Rider]

8 minutes ago, ALarson said:

When I google search "Resign Mormon Church", the first link that comes up is "QuitMormon.com".

And, their services are free:

 

 

I just did your search requirement and QuitMormomn.com was second. However, there was still a long list of instructions on how it is done. Some are pretty funny to read - the first one for example. This is a primer to be a jerk, obviously written by jerks, but I guess it could get the job done. 

Still seems like the quickest way to get it done is to contact the bishop, tell him you are not interested in talking, but you wanted to hand deliver the letter of resignation for his immediate action and then walk away. 

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I just did your search requirement and QuitMormomn.com was second. However, there was still a long list of instructions on how it is done. Some are pretty funny to read - the first one for example. This is a primer to be a jerk, obviously written by jerks, but I guess it could get the job done. 

Still seems like the quickest way to get it done is to contact the bishop, tell him you are not interested in talking, but you wanted to hand deliver the letter of resignation for his immediate action and then walk away. 

I honestly think the quickest and easiest way would be to just contact QuitMormon.com (from what I've heard from family members and a few others I know who have used them).  Very simple and easy.....and free.  I think that's why so many are using them now for this service.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 9/24/2018 at 8:46 AM, Gray said:

Few people flip over immediately. What seems to happen is that one scandal might turn people inactive. More scandals down the road cause them to resign. Active members are probably more likely to go inactive over this than to resign just yet. Two or three scandals down the road, that's where they'll resign...................................

Scandals and such are only rarely the impetus to go inactive or to eventually resign.  That does happen,  but the most frequent reason for leaving the LDS faith is marginal status all along -- throughout life.  There just isn't a whole lot of blatant apostasy.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

No, as of a couple of weeks ago, the application hadn't yet been submitted. The stake president had asked the ward to fast for him to receive inspiration.

My counselor told me at the game Saturday that there are rumors that a name had been turned down by the First Presidency. I said, "How would anyone know that?" The stake presidency is big on confidentiality (as they should be). I think the long interregnum lends itself to rumor and speculation, but I don't think that one is supported by anything.

I notified them in May that I was moving in July. It was also important to give advance notice because I have been a big part of every girls camp the eight years I have been in, so stake YW were relying on my for a number of things (including the extra overnight canoe trip). As of the second week in September, the application hadn't been submitted yet, so it didn't have anything to do with notification.

When I told him in May, I suggested that it would be a good idea to move quickly, because in July Salt Lake is a ghost town because of GA vacation month. I figured it was a good idea to have your birds in hand before July, and we were moving on July 14.

This reminds me of an inside joke my wife and I and a good friend (former YW president of mine) have, which I shared with my counselor Saturday. Our friend has had the worst time with BYU-Idaho out of Pathway. All communication is done with undergraduate students who are required to give service hours. They know nothing, have had no training, and are not allowed to escalate up to a manager for questions they can't answer. You also can't call and talk to the same person; it goes into queue and you get another random BYU-I undergrad ("Thank you for calling BYU-Idaho online support. My name is Amber, and I'm a sophomore in Family Science. How can I help you?"). My wife hasn't had any issues, but our friend, who has two associate's degrees and just needs a couple of classes to graduate, had none of her credits from her associates recognized. So, BYU-I was requiring her to take freshman English, and, well, everything over. Also, none of her Pell Grant went through, so she was trying to figure that out. Each time she called (and talked to someone else and had to start all over again with explanations), the only response was, "Hmmm. That's a tough one. I don't know what the answer to that is. What's that? No, there's no way you can talk to a manager. What? Yes, that's correct. We don't have a way to transfer you or have you talk to a Supervisor. What? Yes, I have a supervisor, but we're not allowed to transfer you to anybody. I'm supposed to have you send an email to this email address, and you will be contacted." After sending multiple emails (increasingly more pointed), with no response, she began to think that maybe this wasn't the right time, and that nothing working out was a sign for her to move on and pick it up again later. She finally got an email response, and it said (and I'm not joking), "We are sorry, but we are unable to help you with your issues. I hope you find peace.. Thank you for contacting us!"

"I hope you find peace."   That is a big catch phrase among us now, as an inside joke. Any time anybody mentions something that was less than ideal, we all say, "I hope you find peace."  

I shared this with my counselor, because he said the other counselor had emailed the stake president and diplomatically but emphatically told him that a lot of harm is accruing from the continuing lack of a bishop or elders quorum presidency. The response was a terse, "Thank you for taking the initiative to contact me." That's it. 

One of his counselors was bishop of our same ward two bishops ago, and when members have talked to him (he's been assigned to permanently be in our ward until the new bishop is called), he's simply said, "I've given my input and my counsel. That's all I can do." 

I'm really hoping that this ends soon. They are very aware of the urgency and the need, and it is starting to be ridiculous. The elders quorum presidency is also urgent, because of ministering, Sunday 3rd hours, etc. (and the need to have those keys active and functioning). And that one has been completely under the stake's control all along. 

Horrendous!! Time to call the area authority? I cannot imagine what I would do in that situation.

If this behavior was a known problem before he was called as SP I can't imagine how he got through the "interview process" if you catch my drift. I cannot imagine that he got a lot of support.

Edited September 25, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Gray]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Scandals and such are only rarely the impetus to go inactive or to eventually resign.  That does happen,  but the most frequent reason for leaving the LDS faith is marginal status all along -- throughout life.  There just isn't a whole lot of blatant apostasy.

People occasionally leave political parties for the same reason - they get fed up with the behavior at the top. How frequently it happens, I don't know. I'm sure most people leave or stay for largely social reasons.

[Walden]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I am generally opposed to paying for a law firm (or anyone else) to do something when I could reasonably do it myself.

 

 

 

 

......unless I am feeling particularly lazy.

No need to hire a law firm. I sent a carefully worded letter to SLC, they in turn contacted my bishop, who in turn contacted my parents about my exit plan (despite the fact that I was 30-something at the time and the bishop had never met my parents, who live hours away....that was the oddest part of this whole thing), my parents reached out to me to bring me back into the fold, I held firm, my bishop & home teacher came by to discuss, I held firm, and they finally accepted my resignation. 

Come to think of it, a law firm might be easier, but I enjoy a challenge.

[rongo]

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Horrendous!! Time to call the area authority? I cannot imagine what I would do in that situation.

If this behavior was a known problem before he was called as SP I can't imagine how he got through the "interview process" if you catch my drift. I cannot imagine that he got a lot of support.

I've seriously thought about contacting the area authority over that coordinating council (I live in a different one, now).

The extremely long time in making decisions is the only problem. There are no reasons why he would have had lack of support (ie., sustaining), and he is a wonderful, kind, and spiritual man. 

When I think about contacting "further up the line," I hesitate because I don't want to get him in trouble, and I also hope that "something's gotta give" and the calls will be made any day now. I know that I should look at it as just trying to help the work move forward in our area, but it's complicated when it's close to you (we are good friends, and I have a lot of respect for him). I'm hoping that the calls get made soon and things go on. 

[rongo]

Part of the problem is that there aren't a lot of options in the ward. The list of potential candidates is very small, which is easier and harder at the same time. This has also been a factor in the delay in putting in an elders quorum presidency, I'm sure. The same list would apply to both needs. 

My counselors are outstanding, but they have been in a long time (they were counselors to the previous bishop as well), and they are really burned out over the last few months. I'm hoping for their sakes it isn't one of them, but they are really the top two. We have a couple of high councilors called from our ward who would work, but the stake is loathe to release them. There are 2-3, or maybe 4-6 other men who would also work well, I think, so that pretty much gives you the 6-7 men needed for the bishopric/EQP. 

We discussed all of this in my "exit interview" PPI in May. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by rongo

[clarkgoble]

1 minute ago, rongo said:

Part of the problem is that there aren't a lot of options in the ward. The list of potential candidates is very small, which is easier and harder at the same time. This has also been a factor in the delay in putting in an elders quorum presidency, I'm sure. The same list would apply to both needs. 

My counselors are outstanding, but they have been in a long time (they were counselors to the previous bishop as well), and they are really burned out over the last few months. I'm hoping for their sakes it isn't one of them, but they are really the top two. We have a couple of high councilors called from our ward who would work, but the sake is loathe to release them. There are 2-3, or maybe 4-6 other men who would also work well, I think, so that pretty much gives you the 6-7 men needed for the bishopric/EQP. 

We discussed all of this in my "exit interview" PPI in May. 

Is the ward a whole city? Otherwise it sounds like they need to redo the ward boundaries.

[why me]

6 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Wow. How offensive is that. My best friend, tbm as they come, just died at 56 from cancer, leaving a 15 year old daughter behind.  Being active doesn't save you from that horrible disease. Nor does it save you from depression, divorce or other life threatening illnesses.

Since smoking is the leading cause of cancer, it still has saved many lives for those who have abstained from smoking because of the word of wisdom. And that was my point. Not to mention cancer caused by alcoholism. And the domestic violence that comes from it. And that was my point too. Of course, it doesn't mean that one will never get cancer. And the same for other aspects of the word of wisdom. If my own relatives were Mormon, I think that many would have lived longer than they did: one suicide, 3 from alcoholism, one from drugs and Aids, Not to mention one from smoking.

Edited September 25, 2018 by why me

[rongo]

11 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Is the ward a whole city? Otherwise it sounds like they need to redo the ward boundaries.

No, the stake encompasses a city (seven wards). We are one of the larger wards, numerically, and on paper, we are fine with numbers of MP holders. It's when the rubber hits the road in terms of selecting a man to be bishop that I can see it giving pause. But, there are also at least 7-10 possibilities who would be fine, I think. It's not like there are no options at all. 

This is an issue faced in spades in branches of the Church outside of the intermountain west. Sometimes, you do the best you can with the hand you are dealt. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by rongo

[why me]

4 hours ago, Walden said:

Not sure I agree with your conclusion that the world would be a better place if there were more Mormons....it might be a better place for Mormons, but not so much for gays, liberals, atheists, those who like their politics and religion separated, etc., etc.

Personally, I think there are more effective and healthier ways to avoid "the darker side of life" than being Mormon.

Have you been to Europe? Many mormon socialists in france and in britain. Not to mention in other parts of europe. I said that if more people were mormon that the world would be a better place. I did not say that the whole world would be mormon.

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, why me said:

Have you been to Europe? Many mormon socialists in france and in britain. Not to mention in other parts of europe. I said that if more people were mormon that the world would be a better place. I did not say that the whole world would be mormon.

Have you returned to being an active member?  (You don't have to answer that if it's too personal....just curious.... as your posts indicated you're back! ).

Edited September 25, 2018 by ALarson

[clarkgoble]

13 minutes ago, rongo said:

No, the stake encompasses a city (seven wards). We are one of the larger wards, numerically, and on paper, we are fine with numbers of MP holders. It's when the rubber hits the road in terms of selecting a man to be bishop that I can see it giving pause. But, there are also at least 7-10 possibilities who would be fine, I think. It's not like there are no options at all. 

This is an issue faced in spades in branches of the Church outside of the intermountain west. Sometimes, you do the best you can with the hand you are dealt. 

Oh trust me I know. My dad got called twice simply because of that problem. We also had a relatively new member (around four years) called once. We also had a EQ Pres for a few months who had fallen off the wagon and gone on an alcoholic bender. Shouldn't have taken so long to get a replacement but caused various problems similar to what you describe. Often the Stake had to release key figures who were needed for helping out other branches and wards that were struggling for various reasons in order to provide leadership in this ward. Always a risk when you call someone to see if they step up to the extra responsibility or if you stick to the pool of people who've demonstrated they can take the responsibility.

Edited September 25, 2018 by clarkgoble

[rongo]

49 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Oh trust me I know. My dad got called twice simply because of that problem. We also had a relatively new member (around four years) called once. We also had a EQ Pres for a few months who had fallen off the wagon and gone on an alcoholic bender. Shouldn't have taken so long to get a replacement but caused various problems similar to what you describe. Often the Stake had to release key figures who were needed for helping out other branches and wards that were struggling for various reasons in order to provide leadership in this ward. Always a risk when you call someone to see if they step up to the extra responsibility or if you stick to the pool of people who've demonstrated they can take the responsibility.

Best story ever (to me) in this regard:

I home-taught an elderly white man who grew up on the Navajo reservation (his dad worked in some capacity there). A native Navajo bishop was called over their ward, and he was an alcoholic who was unorthodox in holding essential meetings, holding interviews, etc. The white members with a background in how the Church should run locally were scandalized, and they couldn't get over how you could have an alcoholic bishop who struggled with it while serving. However, all six of that bishops children served missions and married in the temple. Darndest thing! And, the ripple effect of that will radiate outward through generations. I wondered after hearing about this if the cost of having a "non" or "partially" functioning bishop was worth it, in the long view, to lead to that extraordinary result. Missions and temple marriage are extraordinary in that culture, and especially that kind of a success rate. Small price to pay for that, I think. 

You're right about the high risk/high reward factor. I remember my first counselor in another ward asking sometimes, "How daring are we?" And I would say, "Pretty daring. What do you have in mind?"  Even if it doesn't work out, it can be good for the person. It can also be catastrophic. Revelation is very important, along with logic and reason. And, past success in discerning isn't a guarantee in the here and now. One of the thrilling and terrifying parts of the mortal experience. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by rongo

[mfbukowski]

50 minutes ago, rongo said:

Part of the problem is that there aren't a lot of options in the ward. The list of potential candidates is very small, which is easier and harder at the same time. This has also been a factor in the delay in putting in an elders quorum presidency, I'm sure. The same list would apply to both needs. 

My counselors are outstanding, but they have been in a long time (they were counselors to the previous bishop as well), and they are really burned out over the last few months. I'm hoping for their sakes it isn't one of them, but they are really the top two. We have a couple of high councilors called from our ward who would work, but the stake is loathe to release them. There are 2-3, or maybe 4-6 other men who would also work well, I think, so that pretty much gives you the 6-7 men needed for the bishopric/EQP. 

We discussed all of this in my "exit interview" PPI in May. 

Ah yes, I get it. In my HC calling I was recently reassigned to Shepherd a very large poor and struggling ward on the edge of the stake bordering a very rough part of town. Huge numbers of members on the books that no one can find, because it is a transient area, but beginning to gentrify, so there are some very capable and active folks but very few of them. The bishopric kind of rotates in taking on the job of Bishop but it's pretty much always the same three families. The good news is that there have been a few Young and Savvy folks who are moving in because they see the potential of the area.

There has been some movement to change boundaries with other active Wards to help carry the burden but so far it's a waiting game.

In LA constantly changing demographics are a real challenge.

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Wow. How offensive is that. My best friend, tbm as they come, just died at 56 from cancer, leaving a 15 year old daughter behind.  Being active doesn't save you from that horrible disease. Nor does it save you from depression, divorce or other life threatening illnesses.

None of those assertions were made.