Denson interrupts Bishop's home ward testimony meeting

[Abulafia]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Most of Bishop's supposed "confession"-type remarks were given in response to loaded and/or leading questions.

Taken together (particularly the coming forward of the second victim), it seems clear that Joseph Bishop engaged in serious misconduct against Ms. Denson.  Whether that misconduct extended to forcible rape, however, is a very different question.

Thanks,

-Smac

I think we come back here, to what McKenna understood as rape. If she described everything else he did, and the unsuccessful attempt, then would she have considered that as serious as the rape she experienced as a child? 

 

 

[smac97]

36 minutes ago, provoman said:

Based on what we know, why has he never faced legal ramifications? Because Denson waited either 26 years before telling the police what happened or 33 years before telling the police. 

According to Ron Leavitt, what she reported was not a rape or attempted rape, but that Bishop showed her pornography.  Still extremely serious, but probably not criminal.

According the McKenna Denson, she told Elder Asay about Bishop's "grooming" behavior, but not that there had been a rape or attempted rape.

According to the Church, it learned about Ms. Denson's allegations in 2010.  It referred the matter to Joseph Bishop's local leaders, who addressed the matter with him.  He denied the allegations.

Given Ms. Denson's allegations and Joseph Bishop's admissions (ambiguous though they may be), perhaps further consideration of discipline has arisen.  That would be between Joseph Bishop, his local leaders, and God.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

16 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Quote

Most of Bishop's supposed "confession"-type remarks were given in response to loaded and/or leading questions.

Taken together (particularly the coming forward of the second victim), it seems clear that Joseph Bishop engaged in serious misconduct against Ms. Denson.  Whether that misconduct extended to forcible rape, however, is a very different question.

Thanks,

-Smac

I think we come back here, to what McKenna understood as rape.

Not really.  I think we come back to the substantial lack of credibility of McKenna Denson, and the various and substantial things she has done to undermine and weaken her own credibility.

We come back to Ron Leavitt, who states that McKenna Denson reported that Joseph Bishop showed her pornography, and that she said nothing about rape or attempted rape.

We come back to McKenna Denson, who claims that she met with Elder Asay, but that she did not tell him about the rape or attempted rape.

We come back to McKenna Denson's false rape claim in Washington D.C.

We come back to McKenna Denson's meeting with a counselor in Salt Lake and with Elder Monson, to neither of whom she reported a claim of rape or attempted rape.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Abulafia]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

 

We come back to Ron Leavitt, who states that McKenna Denson reported that Joseph Bishop showed her pornography, and that she said nothing about rape or attempted rape.

 

You miss a salient point Smac, 

 

"On Thursday night Ron Leavitt, a former single’s ward president, says one of the women came to him the mid '80s and said Bishop abused her, taking her and another woman to a small basement room at the MTC and showed them pornography

[Abulafia]

"Sexual abuse is unwanted sexual activity, with perpetrators using force, making threats or taking advantage of victims not able to give consent. Most victims and perpetrators know each other. Immediate reactions to sexual abuse include shock, fear or disbelief. Long-term symptoms include anxiety, fear or post-traumatic stress disorder. While efforts to treat sex offenders remain unpromising, psychological interventions for survivors — especially group therapy — appears effective"

http://www.apa.org/topics/sexual-abuse/index.aspx

[juliann]

26 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

You miss a salient point Smac, 

 

"On Thursday night Ron Leavitt, a former single’s ward president, says one of the women came to him the mid '80s and said Bishop abused her, taking her and another woman to a small basement room at the MTC and showed them pornography

I think you missed this "According to Ron Leavitt, what she reported was not a rape or attempted rape, but that Bishop showed her pornography.  Still extremely serious, but probably not criminal."

17 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

"Sexual abuse is unwanted sexual activity, with perpetrators using force, making threats or taking advantage of victims not able to give consent. Most victims and perpetrators know each other. Immediate reactions to sexual abuse include shock, fear or disbelief. Long-term symptoms include anxiety, fear or post-traumatic stress disorder. While efforts to treat sex offenders remain unpromising, psychological interventions for survivors — especially group therapy — appears effective"

http://www.apa.org/topics/sexual-abuse/index.aspx

At least in this forum, I haven't see a whole lot of people who think there was no sexual abuse in some form. 

This is what happens when events are analyized detail by detail as would happen in a court. Self serving narratives quickly break down. And I suspect that is what will happen at a trial. Which again makes me wonder about the future of women's groups who refuse to engage in any thinking beyond the enforced narrative. They should be the first to do this careful analysis on all matters that they use a standard bearer for crimes against women.

[smac97]

17 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Quote

We come back to Ron Leavitt, who states that McKenna Denson reported that Joseph Bishop showed her pornography, and that she said nothing about rape or attempted rape.

You miss a salient point Smac, 

"On Thursday night Ron Leavitt, a former single’s ward president, says one of the women came to him the mid '80s and said Bishop abused her, taking her and another woman to a small basement room at the MTC and showed them pornography

Nope.  I think the paraphrase here is intended to convey the idea that Bishop abused her by taking her and another woman to a basement room and showing them pornography.

And if that it was happened, then I am totally on board with characterizing that as abuse.

I've commented on this before here:

Quote

We have this report about an interview of Leavitt by KUTV:

  Quote

On Thursday night Ron Leavitt, a former single’s ward president, says one of the women came to him the mid '80s and said Bishop abused her, taking her and another woman to a small basement room at the MTC and showed them pornography.

And here is an interview of Leavitt that was broadcast on KUTV (here is a YouTube video that shows the KUTV broadcast, but also heavily editorializes over it).  The interview goes like this:

  Quote

Leavitt: According to her, he took [bleeped out] and, I think, maybe one other sister missionary down to the basement and showed them some pornography."

Reporter: What was your reaction?

Leavitt: Doubt.  

Reporter: You doubted her?

Leavitt: Mm-hmm.  Primarily because I'd noticed that she tended to embellish experiences.

And more:

  Quote

Reporter (Voiceover): Despite what the woman told him, Leavitt did not tell anyone about her story.

Reporter (to Leavitt): Did you pass along this information to the Church [Leavitt shakes head] or the police or anything like that?  And how come, why not?

Leavitt: Primarily because I didn't think it had much credence.  I wasn't going to risk sullying the reputation of someone based on that kind of a report.  

And this: 

  Quote

Reporter: He does suggest that perhaps he may have been inappropriate with sister missionaries.

Leavitt: Hmm.  That's interesting. 

Reporter: Given that knowledge, does that make you think 'Well, maybe I should've said something?'"

Leavitt: Had I had that information then, yes, I would have.

 

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

13 minutes ago, juliann said:

I think you missed this "According to Ron Leavitt, what she reported was not a rape or attempted rape, but that Bishop showed her pornography.  Still extremely serious, but probably not criminal."

At least in this forum, I haven't see a whole lot of people who think there was no sexual abuse in some form. 

Yep.  I have long been persuaded that Joseph Bishop did something abusive to McKenna Denson.  But at present, the evidence for rape or attempted rape is very poor.  

13 minutes ago, juliann said:

This is what happens when events are analyized detail by detail as would happen in a court.

I think this is perhaps why fome folks are getting angry at me personally.  Because I am trying to analyze the facts of this case dispassionately, I am accused by some in this and other threads of lacking empathy or feeling. 

Because I am assessing claims and evidence and credibility of witnesses and such as attorneys and judges do. 

Because I am noting the substantial and significant defects in McKenna Denson's credibility as a purveyor of information. 

Because I focus on factual scrutiny, mostly to the exclusion of expressing personal disgust at the apparent misconduct of Joseph Bishop. 

13 minutes ago, juliann said:

Self serving narratives quickly break down. And I suspect that is what will happen at a trial.

That is becoming my suspicion, too (if there even is a trial).  Ms. Denson has had a bully pulpit for months.  She gets to do and say whatever she wants, and most of the public uncritically accepts her narrative as the unvarnished truth.  But that's not the case in a court of law.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

According to Ron Leavitt, what she reported was not a rape or attempted rape, but that Bishop showed her pornography.  Still extremely serious, but probably not criminal.

According the McKenna Denson, she told Elder Asay about Bishop's "grooming" behavior, but not that there had been a rape or attempted rape.

According to the Church, it learned about Ms. Denson's allegations in 2010.  It referred the matter to Joseph Bishop's local leaders, who addressed the matter with him.  He denied the allegations.

Given Ms. Denson's allegations and Joseph Bishop's admissions (ambiguous though they may be), perhaps further consideration of discipline has arisen.  That would be between Joseph Bishop, his local leaders, and God.

Thanks,

-Smac

Smac, you surely remember that she didn't know it was rape if he didn't finish the deed. The cops had to tell her that it's considered rape, what Bishop did. Haven't I had to remind you of this before, deja vu here. 

[smac97]

Just now, Tacenda said:

Smac, you surely remember that she didn't know it was rape if he didn't finish the deed.

Actually, we don't know that.  The sole source of this is . . . McKenna Denson.  Decades after the fact.  Well after her discussion with Ron Leavitt, who claims that she reported that Joseph Bishop showed her pornography, and said nothing about a rape or attempted rape.  And well after her purported discussions with Carlos Asay and the therapist and Elder Monson, none of which discussions included her making a report of a rape or attempted rape.

Moreover, her claim that "she didn't know it was rape if he didn't finish the deed" seems a bit . . . unusual given shortly after the MTC she admits to fabricating a report of an attempted rape while she was in Washington D.C. waiting for her visa.  So how is it that she knew enough of the concept of "rape" to fabricate a claim about it in 1984, but then not know enough about that same concept to report Joseph Bishop's purported sexual assault against her as a "rape" when she spoke with Ron Leavitt?  And Elder Asay?  And the therapist?  And Elder Monson?

Just now, Tacenda said:

The cops had to tell her that it's considered rape, what Bishop did.

We don't know that.

Ms. Denson claimed in her "interview" with Joseph Bishop in 2017 that in 1984, while in Washington, D.C., she "pretended somebody in the [] parking lot tried to rape me..."

So in 1984 she knew enough about about rape and attempted rape to fake a claim about it in 1984.

Just now, Tacenda said:

Haven't I had to remind you of this before, deja vu here. 

I don't recall.  But if so, I'm not sure you are correct.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Abulafia]

On 9/14/2018 at 4:19 PM, smac97 said:

1.Not really.  I think we come back to the substantial lack of credibility of McKenna Denson, and the various and substantial things she has done to undermine and weaken her own credibility.

2.We come back to Ron Leavitt, who states that McKenna Denson reported that Joseph Bishop showed her pornography, and that she said nothing about rape or attempted rape.

3.We come back to McKenna Denson, who claims that she met with Elder Asay, but that she did not tell him about the rape or attempted rape.

4.We come back to McKenna Denson's false rape claim in Washington D.C.

5.We come back to McKenna Denson's meeting with a counselor in Salt Lake and with Elder Monson, to neither of whom she reported a claim of rape or attempted rape.

Thanks,

-Smac

I disagree. I'll endeavour to address your points and have numbered them in order to do so.

1. You keep repeating that McKenna is not a credible individual and that her chequered past substantially adds to that lack of credibility. That's an opinion and as I have noted elsewhere,  her past is entirely in keeping with research on the long term effects of childhood sexual trauma.  Joseph Bishop had access to that privileged information and used it to groom her and at least 3 other sister missionaries.

2. Again that's a matter of opinion on the basis that you view Leavitt  as a much more credible and believable individual in this matter. You do that by twisting his words when he acknowledges that McKenna told him of the sexual abuse and that she was then interviewed by Carlos E Asay.

 

3.That McKenna was referred by Leavitt and his leaders to Carlos  E. Asay, and that she informed him of her sexual abuse at the hand of Joseph Bishop has also been confirmed by polygraph evidence which clearly states she was telling the truth. She didn't describe it as a rape because it was the police who informed her that her abuse was rape even though full penetration didn't take place.

4. Mckenna had a nervous breakdown in Washington DC. Goodness knows what was going through her mind, but good grief Smac, put yourself in her shoes. A cry for help? Not knowing what to do. Feeling she wouldn't be believed if she did tell someone about the sexual abuse. Bishop being a high ranking powerful individual. Mckenna already being damaged goods. Mckenna feeling guilty for following him down to that basement.  Mckenna feeling maybe she *asked for it* by putting herself in such a vulnerable situation?

5. She didn't like the counsellor. She met him once. He talked about himself for the whole hour. She met with Thomas Monson once. 45 minutes. She wanted him to have the gift of discernment.  He didn't.  She is still traumatised. She remembers what she was wearing. A white dress with a bow.  This is what people remember when they are traumatised.  Monson packs her off to another mission.  She felt uncomfortable with him. If I had been through all that with Joseph Bishop, I would feel uncomfortable alone with another trusted authority figure.  This is all still just weeks after the sexual abuse of a vulnerable and already traumatised individual took place.

 

Good grief Smac. Put yourself in her shoes for a few minutes. This is a convert who loves the safe lifestyle the church offered and who was found worthy and capable of serving a Mission. 

Edited September 16, 2018 by Abulafia

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

I disagree. I'll endeavour to address your points and have numbered them in order to do so.

1. You keep repeating that McKenna is not a credible individual and that her chequered past substantially adds to that lack of credibility. That's an opinion and as I have noted elsewhere,  her past is entirely in keeping with research on the long term effects of childhood sexual trauma.  Joseph Bishop had access to that privileged information and used it to groom her and at least 3 other sister missionaries.

2. Again that's a matter of opinion on the basis that you view Leavitt  as a much more credible and believable individual in this matter. You do that by twisting his words when he acknowledges that McKenna told him of the sexual abuse and that she was then interviewed by Carlos E Asay.

 

3.That McKenna was referred by Leavitt and his leaders to Carlos  E. Asay, and that she informed him of her sexual abuse at the hand of Joseph Bishop has also been confirmed by polygraph evidence which clearly states she was telling the truth. She didn't describe it as a rape because it was the police who informed her that her abuse was rape even though full penetration didn't take place.

4. Mckenna had a nervous breakdown in Washington DC. Goodness knows what was going through her mind, but good grief Smac, put yourself in her shoes. A cry for help? Not knowing what to do. Feeling she wouldn't be believed if she did tell someone about the sexual abuse. Bishop being a high ranking powerful individual. Mckenna already being damaged goods. Mckenna feeling guilty for following him down to that basement.  Mckenna feeling maybe she *asked for it* by putting herself in such a vulnerable situation?

5. She didn't like the counsellor. She met him once. He talked about himself for the whole hour. She met with Thomas Monson once. 45 minutes. She wanted him to have the gift of discernment.  He didn't.  She is still traumatised. She remembers what she was wearing. A white dress with a bow.  This is what people remember when they are traumatised.  Monson packs her off to another mission.  She felt uncomfortable with him. If I had been through all that with Joseph Bishop, I would feel uncomfortable alone with another trusted authority figure.  This is all still just weeks after the sexual abuse of a vulnerable and already traumatised individual took place.

 

Good grief Smac. Put yourself in her shoes for a few minutes. This is a convert who loves the safe lifestyle the church offered and who was found worthy and capable of serving a Mission. 

Sounds about right to me.

[Abulafia]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Sounds about right to me.

Thanks Tacenda. I've tried to follow this closely and am catching up on the various interviews with Radio Free Mormon. I found McKenna to be articulate and reasonable.  

Edited September 16, 2018 by Abulafia
Spelling

[smac97]

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

I disagree. I'll endeavour to address your points and have numbered them in order to do so.

1. You keep repeating that McKenna is not a credible individual and that her chequered past substantially adds to that lack of credibility.

I'm saying her prior behavior taints her credibility, yes.  

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

That's an opinion and as I have noted elsewhere,  her past is entirely in keeping with research on the long term effects of childhood sexual trauma. 

Her past is also "entirely in keeping" with someone who is dishonest, who embellishes, who uses deceit for financial gain, and so on.

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Joseph Bishop had access to that privileged information and used it to groom her and at least 3 other sister missionaries.

I think you are probably correct.

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

2. Again that's a matter of opinion on the basis that you view Leavitt  as a much more credible and believable individual in this matter.

I find Leavitt's statement more credible that Denson's, yes.  But that assessment is open to change based on further evidence.

Denson has stated that she didn't tell Elder Asay about the purported sexual assault.  Or the therapist.  Or Elder Thomas S. Monson.  

Denson has admitted to fabricating at least one other rape claim.  Her ex-husband asserts she has done this at least twice before.

Denson has a past history of fabricating claims for financial gain.  We know of the pistol-whipped-in-the-restaurant scam.  The razor-blades-in-the-icing-of-a-cake scam.  The lying-about-cancer-treatments-for-money scam.  And the arrest for identity fraud.  And the forging of prescriptions.

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

You do that by twisting his words when he acknowledges that McKenna told him of the sexual abuse and that she was then interviewed by Carlos E Asay.

I haven't twisted his words.  The public statement from Leavitt involves Ms. Denson making a claim that Bishop showed her and another missionary pornography.  That is grossly inappropriate and immoral, and a grave violation of the trust given him.

However, Leavitt has not said anything about Ms. Denson reporting a rape or attempted rape.  And he says that he did not believe her, and hence did not notify the Church or anyone else about her reported claim.

I am open to further evidence, but that's the state of the evidence at present.  

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

3.That McKenna was referred by Leavitt and his leaders to Carlos  E. Asay, and that she informed him of her sexual abuse at the hand of Joseph Bishop has also been confirmed by polygraph evidence which clearly states she was telling the truth.

Meh.  We don't know this.  

Moreover, polygraph evidence is not admissible in court, so saying that it "confirms" and "clearly states that she was telling the truth" is bolstering on your part.

And Ms. Denson herself has stated that she did not tell Elder Asay about the purported rape or attempted rape.  

Ms. Denson's "Rough Draft" letter states:

  Quote

I reported the incidents of President Bishop to my Bishop in about 1988. His name was Ron Leavitt. He reported to the Stake President’ who called and reported to church headquarters in Salt Lake.

Elder Carlos Asay visited me in Provo or Orem and interviewed me. I reported everything except the rape. I didn’t think of it as rape as he didn’t have a full erection.

Elder Asay said he would investigate the incident and let me know the outcome.

"I reported everything except the rape."  The one thing she is suing about she says she didn't report to Elder Asay.

And from her statements in the podcast:

  Quote

Denson: You know, I don't really remember a whole lot about it, but I do remember explaining to Elder Asay the grooming process.  How there were four sister missionaries, including myself, and then there were two, including myself, and then it became one-on-one.  And I remember sharing the inappropriate sexual stories that Elder, excuse me, President Bishop shared with me about his wife, and about the hot tub or hot springs.  I don't remember a whole lot more.  I just remember telling him what happened.

Interviewer: What was Elder Asay's reaction?

Denson: He was rather stoic.  He didn't seem to have a lot of emotion.  He seemed very rigid, like he was just taking the information in.  But it didn't move him at all.  d

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

She didn't describe it as a rape because it was the police who informed her that her abuse was rape even though full penetration didn't take place.

This is according to Ms. Denson.  Years after the fact.

Yet in 1984 she reported a fabricated claim that someone had tried to rape her in a parking lot.

So how is it that she knew enough about the concept of rape to fabricate a claim about it in 1984, but then years later had to be told by the police what rape is?

Moreover, her podcast statements include her saying that she explained "the grooming process," and the "sharing {of} inappropriate sexual stories."  She says nothing about reporting anything about a violent rape or attempted rape in a basement room in the MTC.

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

4. Mckenna had a nervous breakdown in Washington DC. Goodness knows what was going through her mind, but good grief Smac, put yourself in her shoes.

"Goodness knows what was going through her mind" being the operative phrase there.  

And the "nervous breakdown" involved a fabricated claim of attempted rape.

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

A cry for help? Not knowing what to do. Feeling she wouldn't be believed if she did tell someone about the sexual abuse.

What "sexual abuse" are you referencing here?  

You seem to keep presupposing that which has yet to be demonstrated.

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Bishop being a high ranking powerful individual. Mckenna already being damaged goods. Mckenna feeling guilty for following him down to that basement.  Mckenna feeling maybe she *asked for it* by putting herself in such a vulnerable situation?

Again, you seem to keep presupposing that which has yet to be demonstrated.

Perhaps her breakdown stemmed from years of childhood trauma coupled with the trauma arising from Bishop showing her pornography.

Perhaps the breakdown stemmed from mental illness.

Perhaps the breakdown stemmed from other factors.

And yes, perhaps the breakdown stemmed from a violent rape or attempted rape by Joseph Bishop.  That is one of the options.  I just don't find it to be the most credible one.  

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

5. She didn't like the counsellor. She met him once. He talked about himself for the whole hour.

According to Ms. Denson.

And the fact remains that even by her reckoning she did not report a rape or attempted rape.

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

She met with Thomas Monson once. 45 minutes. She wanted him to have the gift of discernment.  He didn't. 

And she apparently did report anythign substantive to him, either.

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

She is still traumatised.

This is editorializing and conjecture.

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

She remembers what she was wearing.

She also "remembers" being the victim of an attempted rape in a Washington D.C. parking lot.

She also "remembers" finding razor blades in the icing of a restaurant cake.

She also "remembers" getting cancer treatments.

She also "remembers" being pistol-whipped and almost kidnapped in a restaurant parking lot.

She also "remembers" having an appointment with Mark Gillespie, the former temple president in Taiwan that ran late on the day she "interviewed" Joseph Bishop.

She also "remembers" planning a "surprise" party for Joseph Bishop.

But you know what?  None of these things ever happened.  There was no attempted rape in Washington D.C.  No razor blades.  No cancer treatment.  No pistol-whipping / kidnapping attempt.  No meeting with Mark Gillespie.  No surprise party for Joseph Bishop

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

A white dress with a bow. 

Late-running appointment with Mark Gillespie.

Cancer treatments.

Razor blades in icing.

Rape attempt in a parking lot.

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

This is what people remember when they are traumatised. 

It's also what dishonest people use to bolster their credibility.  Little details.  

Someone who brags about her detailed lies using fabricated details about a meeting with Mark Gillespie could also lie about details like "a white dress with a bow."

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Monson packs her off to another mission. 

Because she lied to him.  By omission.

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

She felt uncomfortable with him. If I had been through all that with Joseph Bishop, I would feel uncomfortable alone with another trusted authority figure.  This is all still just weeks after the sexual abuse of a vulnerable and already traumatised individual took place.

What constitutes "all that with Joseph Bishop" is in dispute.  

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Good grief Smac. Put yourself in her shoes for a few minutes.

I have.  I've expressed empathy and sympathy for McKenna Denson many times.

Thanks,

-Smac

[esodije]

Denson has also made serious allegations against another man—her ex-husband. She accused him of serial adultery while interviewing Bishop.  She accused him of being a child-support deadbeat in, I think, the RFM podcast.  Finally, she said he accompanied her, before they were married, to the meetinghouse where the Asay meeting took place and thus can attest to its having happened. It would seem easier to prove or disprove these allegations than anything she’s alleged about Bishop—and if her husband’s supposed actions are the product of delusion, I would question her credibility in general. Delusional people always have bogeymen, people they claim are responsible for all their problems in life.

[smac97]

31 minutes ago, esodije said:

Denson has also made serious allegations against another man—her ex-husband. She accused him of serial adultery while interviewing Bishop.  She accused him of being a child-support deadbeat in, I think, the RFM podcast.  Finally, she said he accompanied her, before they were married, to the meetinghouse where the Asay meeting took place and thus can attest to its having happened. 

Yes, I'll be very interested to see if he corroborates that story, as his corroboration could be a fairly significant blow to Leavitt's credibility (Leavitt having denied notifying the Church about Ms. Denson's claims, or of arranging a meeting between Ms. Denson and Elder Asay).

31 minutes ago, esodije said:

It would seem easier to prove or disprove these allegations than anything she’s alleged about Bishop

Her allegations against her ex-husband - him being an adulterer and "child-support deadbeat" - don't seem relevant to her claims against Bishop.  

31 minutes ago, esodije said:

—and if her husband’s supposed actions are the product of delusion, I would question her credibility in general.

I don't think we'll get there.  The ex-husband is not on trial.

31 minutes ago, esodije said:

Delusional people always have bogeymen, people they claim are responsible for all their problems in life.

So do dishonest people.

And so do victims.

Which of these is McKenna Denson?  I'm thinking it's sort of a mix of all three.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Abulafia]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Yes, I'll be very interested to see if he corroborates that story, as his corroboration could be a fairly significant blow to Leavitt's credibility (Leavitt having denied notifying the Church about Ms. Denson's claims, or of arranging a meeting between Ms. Denson and Elder Asay).

Her allegations against her ex-husband - him being an adulterer and "child-support deadbeat" - don't seem relevant to her claims against Bishop.  

I don't think we'll get there.  The ex-husband is not on trial.

So do dishonest people.

And so do victims.

Which of these is McKenna Denson?  I'm thinking it's sort of a mix of all three.

Thanks,

-Smac

Smac,  I have heard from someone I trust that there are now 7 victims. I cannot confirm that as fact.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Abulafia
To comply with board rules.

[Abulafia]

Has the ex husband made any public statements, other than highlighting the Washington DC event, where I believe McKenna had a breakdown.

[smac97]

22 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Smac, apparantly another victim has come forward, which now makes 7 in total.

CFR, please.

22 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Please don't ask me to provide the source for that.

Sorry, but you don't get to circumvent board rules by saying "please."

22 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

I surmise the source is telling the truth.  (Hope that is satisfactory).

It is not.  But I'll save you the trouble of responding to my CFR and chalk up your say-so as gossip / rumor / hearsay.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ALarson]

28 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Smac, apparantly another victim has come forward, which now makes 7 in total. Please don't ask me to provide the source for that. I surmise the source is telling the truth.  (Hope that is satisfactory).

Abulafia, maybe just state that you've heard from someone you trust that there are now 7 victims who have come forward, but you can't confirm that.  Something along those lines and then you're just passing on some information, but not stating it as being a fact (you sort of did that already with using the word "apparently"...but just maybe make it more clear?).

[Abulafia]

Okay. Great. Thanks. I'll  edit.

[Abulafia]

Smac, I have never asked you for references, but you have highlighted McKenna's past indiscretions on a number of occasions. Can you provide links please. Are you too, passing on gossip and hearsay?

[Abulafia]

I know of the Washington rape claim, which radio free Mormon covers well.

"

She also "remembers" finding razor blades in the icing of a restaurant cake.

She also "remembers" getting cancer treatments.

She also "remembers" being pistol-whipped and almost kidnapped in a restaurant parking lot.

She also "remembers" having an appointment with Mark Gillespie, the former temple president in Taiwan that ran late on the day she "interviewed" Joseph Bishop.

She also "remembers" planning a "surprise" party for Joseph Bishop."

 

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Smac, I have never asked you for references, but you have highlighted McKenna's past indiscretions on a number of occasions. Can you provide links please. Are you too, passing on gossip and hearsay?

Before I looked in on this thread I wondered if it would be another post of Smac replying to you with link after link. Many of these I have seen at least 1/2 a dozen times if not a dozen.  I don't always see things the way he does,  but one thing he did very well is linking those sources.   If you go back a page or 2 and more you will find these links.  If you find something he says without a reference I would be surprised. If you do then please list it because I think he would be happy to link it for you. 

[provoman]

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

I know of the Washington rape claim, which radio free Mormon covers well.

"

She also "remembers" finding razor blades in the icing of a restaurant cake.

She also "remembers" getting cancer treatments.

She also "remembers" being pistol-whipped and almost kidnapped in a restaurant parking lot.

She also "remembers" having an appointment with Mark Gillespie, the former temple president in Taiwan that ran late on the day she "interviewed" Joseph Bishop.

She also "remembers" planning a "surprise" party for Joseph Bishop."

 

https://fox13now.com/2018/03/21/family-of-former-lds-mission-president-accused-of-sexual-assault-responds-to-allegations/
 

only addresses some, I did not know those things either 

Edited September 18, 2018 by provoman