The Catholic scandal and the Church

[rongo]

This is a though-provoking article on why the scandal should matter to Protestants. I think this is also applicable to Mormons:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/08/catholic-sex-abuse-scandals-should-matter-to-protestants/

I've actually been stunned by a spate of articles today by prominent Catholics on the theme of "why I'm remaining Catholic." I'm trying to imagine a scenario where prominent Mormons would write articles on "why I'm remaining Mormon." It just seems very defensive, almost like the statement of loyalty causes more questions than it answers. Horrific to imagine applied to the Church and its members! 

I feel bad for devout, observant Catholics. It goes without saying that I also feel bad for victims and victims of the cover ups and placing future victims in harm's way. But for the media and discussion focus to be solely the scandal, and now the refusal of the pope to address serious allegations about him ---- that is a sad day for observant Catholics.  

[Storm Rider]

I think it is sad all the way around and for everyone. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ is bleed for all disciples of the Savior when leaders fail their members so completely. The in-depth review by the state of Pennsylvania revealed truly perverse, unholy, sick abuse of both adults and minors using the evilest methods that profaned the sacred. 

What I consistently come back to is that these are individuals that committed the crimes and sins; individuals that covered each sin up. What is worse is that those in positions of authority apparently remained mute to any action to intervene. If organizations have a fault, then I think the fault comes in not demanding and teaching to report every single crime/sin to the proper authorities immediately where swift action should and must be taken. 

Bishop Morlino, bishop of Madison Wisconsin, has recently declared the Catholic Church has a problem with homosexual priests. Official policy is that no homosexual is worthy of the priesthood, but evidently, that position has been ignored for some time. Studies have stated as high as 80 and 90% of all abuse cases involve post-pubescent individuals. Some very hard questioning needs to be done and possibly even more challenging decisions will need to be made to clean up this terrible situation. 

[USU78]

They and the RCC have been victimized by these cowardly predators.

[USU78]

5 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I think it is sad all the way around and for everyone. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ is bleed for all disciples of the Savior when leaders fail their members so completely. The in-depth review by the state of Pennsylvania revealed truly perverse, unholy, sick abuse of both adults and minors using the evilest methods that profaned the sacred. 

What I consistently come back to is that these are individuals that committed the crimes and sins; individuals that covered each sin up. What is worse is that those in positions of authority apparently remained mute to any action to intervene. If organizations have a fault, then I think the fault comes in not demanding and teaching to report every single crime/sin to the proper authorities immediately where swift action should and must be taken. 

Bishop Morlino, bishop of Madison Wisconsin, has recently declared the Catholic Church has a problem with homosexual priests. Official policy is that no homosexual is worthy of the priesthood, but evidently, that position has been ignored for some time. Studies have stated as high as 80 and 90% of all abuse cases involve post-pubescent individuals. Some very hard questioning needs to be done and possibly even more challenging decisions will need to be made to clean up this terrible situation. 

Let's be clear: this is by and large a phenomenon of adult male seduction of tweener through young adult (19 year old) males. Girls of all ages and prepubescent boys make up the rest.

The good Bishop's call to repentance should be applauded by all.

Edited August 28, 2018 by USU78

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, rongo said:

This is a though-provoking article on why the scandal should matter to Protestants. I think this is also applicable to Mormons:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/08/catholic-sex-abuse-scandals-should-matter-to-protestants/

I've actually been stunned by a spate of articles today by prominent Catholics on the theme of "why I'm remaining Catholic." I'm trying to imagine a scenario where prominent Mormons would write articles on "why I'm remaining Mormon." It just seems very defensive, almost like the statement of loyalty causes more questions than it answers. Horrific to imagine applied to the Church and its members! 

I feel bad for devout, observant Catholics. It goes without saying that I also feel bad for victims and victims of the cover ups and placing future victims in harm's way. But for the media and discussion focus to be solely the scandal, and now the refusal of the pope to address serious allegations about him ---- that is a sad day for observant Catholics.  

I'm sorry, but I think the sex abuse in the media about LDS leaders abuse is out there as well. And many members have left because of it also. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Tacenda

[rongo]

It's nowhere near the Catholic Church. And nowhere near with the cover-ups. It would be like molestor bishops being moved from Salt Lake to a new ward in Oklahoma to a new ward in Orlando, with settlements and non-disclosures to victims. Plus, an extremely high rate of deviants among bishops. 

Because of Joseph Bishop, were "right up there as well?"

[Tacenda]

14 minutes ago, rongo said:

It's nowhere near the Catholic Church. And nowhere near with the cover-ups. It would be like molestor bishops being moved from Salt Lake to a new ward in Oklahoma to a new ward in Orlando, with settlements and non-disclosures to victims. Plus, an extremely high rate of deviants among bishops. 

Because of Joseph Bishop, were "right up there as well?"

I edited just before seeing your post, I put "out there". I agree it's not like the Catholics, haven't done my reading on it apparently. But have read many articles about cover ups by bishops though, or them not reporting it or asking that the victim not report it, but that was done more in the past I believe. And I've read many an article of bishop's doing the abusing as well, but our church certainly didn't continue to move them from ward house to ward house as you have said the bishops in the Catholic church has done, but moving them from parish to parish so you're right about that. But have always held the church on a pedestal where this is concerned and if it weren't for discussion boards I'd probably still hold them up there as to not to have even done what I've read about. But since doing some research reading about incidents, it is quite a gut punch to know this about our church. Never would have believed it before reading the stats.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Tacenda

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, USU78 said:

Let's be clear: this is by and large a phenomenon of adult male seduction of tweener through young adult (19 year old) males. Girls of all ages and prepubescent boys make up the rest.

The good Bishop's call to repentance should be applauded by all.

2

Nope, it seems to go beyond that. When you look at Cardinal McCarrick it is evident that he accosted priests also. Based upon Bishop Morlino statements, specifically, “There has been a great deal of effort to keep separate acts which fall under the category of now-culturally-acceptable acts of homosexuality from the publicly deplorable acts of pedophilia. That is to say, until recently the problems of the Church have been painted purely as problems of pedophilia — this despite clear evidence to the contrary,”  

I don't know if your effort was an attempt to limit this to some form of pedophilia, but Bishop McCarrick makes it clear it is definitely not limited to pedophilia. 

Bishop McCarrick and the Catholic Church goes much further than The Church of Jesus Christ does regarding those individuals identified as gay, “It is time to admit that there is a homosexual subculture within the hierarchy of the Catholic Church that is wreaking great devastation in the vineyard of the Lord. The Church’s teaching is clear that the homosexual inclination is not in itself sinful, but it is intrinsically disordered in a way that renders any man stably afflicted by it unfit to be a priest,” I would argue this point that simply identifying oneself as gay renders a young man unfit for the priesthood - I think that is wrong and I am heartened that the Church of Jesus Christ does not take such a stand. Such a stand fundamentally negates the power and redemptive effects of the Atonement of the Savior. If the question is solely that each individual must become a master of his own passions then there is no difference for any individual regardless of their sexual attractions. 

[Storm Rider]

In my past conversations with good, faithful Catholics, they have stated that these priests amount to somewhere between 2% and 5% of all priests. This is a significant minority of priests that faithfully serve their Church and their God. We should not exaggerate the problem among Catholic priests. 

[USU78]

7 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

In my past conversations with good, faithful Catholics, they have stated that these priests amount to somewhere between 2% and 5% of all priests. This is a significant minority of priests that faithfully serve their Church and their God. We should not exaggerate the problem among Catholic priests. 

Yes.

[USU78]

8 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Nope, it seems to go beyond that. When you look at Cardinal McCarrick it is evident that he accosted priests also. Based upon Bishop Morlino statements, specifically, “There has been a great deal of effort to keep separate acts which fall under the category of now-culturally-acceptable acts of homosexuality from the publicly deplorable acts of pedophilia. That is to say, until recently the problems of the Church have been painted purely as problems of pedophilia — this despite clear evidence to the contrary,”  

I don't know if your effort was an attempt to limit this to some form of pedophilia, but Bishop McCarrick makes it clear it is definitely not limited to pedophilia. 

Bishop McCarrick and the Catholic Church goes much further than The Church of Jesus Christ does regarding those individuals identified as gay, “It is time to admit that there is a homosexual subculture within the hierarchy of the Catholic Church that is wreaking great devastation in the vineyard of the Lord. The Church’s teaching is clear that the homosexual inclination is not in itself sinful, but it is intrinsically disordered in a way that renders any man stably afflicted by it unfit to be a priest,” I would argue this point that simply identifying oneself as gay renders a young man unfit for the priesthood - I think that is wrong and I am heartened that the Church of Jesus Christ does not take such a stand. Such a stand fundamentally negates the power and redemptive effects of the Atonement of the Savior. If the question is solely that each individual must become a master of his own passions then there is no difference for any individual regardless of their sexual attractions. 

Are we really disagreeing?

[california boy]

8 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

In my past conversations with good, faithful Catholics, they have stated that these priests amount to somewhere between 2% and 5% of all priests. This is a significant minority of priests that faithfully serve their Church and their God. We should not exaggerate the problem among Catholic priests. 

Of course I have issues with this kind of behavior by anyone and especially by clergy that are in positions of trust.  What i have HUGE issues with is when upper authorities hid the situation, ignored it, and continued to move around serial molesters.  Unfortunately the number of bishops and cardinals that did that doesn't seem to be a 2% to 5% number since there are much fewer of them.  Way too many dioceses and evidently all the way up to the Pope which would be 100% in his case have had this issue where it was not handled properly.  THAT is the big black mark on the Catholic Church as far as I am concerned.  And honestly, I haven't seen anything concrete that indicates any changes have been made.

[Atheist Mormon]

19 hours ago, rongo said:

This is a though-provoking article on why the scandal should matter to Protestants. I think this is also applicable to Mormons:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/08/catholic-sex-abuse-scandals-should-matter-to-protestants/

I've actually been stunned by a spate of articles today by prominent Catholics on the theme of "why I'm remaining Catholic." I'm trying to imagine a scenario where prominent Mormons would write articles on "why I'm remaining Mormon." It just seems very defensive, almost like the statement of loyalty causes more questions than it answers. Horrific to imagine applied to the Church and its members! 

I feel bad for devout, observant Catholics. It goes without saying that I also feel bad for victims and victims of the cover ups and placing future victims in harm's way. But for the media and discussion focus to be solely the scandal, and now the refusal of the pope to address serious allegations about him ---- that is a sad day for observant Catholics.  

 post removed: anti-Catholicism

[rongo]

1 minute ago, Atheist Mormon said:

"I feel bad for devout, observant Catholics."

Your empathy is horribly misplaced...I have no doubt Pope had an idea what was going on. I could not even begin to read the details what those children went through....This is the perpetuation of EVIL Catholic Church spreads through the Centuries....First it was Inquisition (not first really)...Persecution of Jews, Rape & Plunder of whole Continent South America...And you are feeling bad for devout Catholics? 

Here some of us tried to throw LDS Church under the bus for an isolated childabuse case, where are they now? 

Joseph was never more right when He aptly called this Church for what it was.

I'm talking about my observant Catholic friends. People I taught on my mission. Not the priests, bishops, cardinals, and the pope. I feel bad for the prelates who don't have blood on their hands, too. 

Yes, I feel bad for devout Catholics. They no more did any of these things than any of us had to do with Mountain Meadows. 

[Walden]

11 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

In my past conversations with good, faithful Catholics, they have stated that these priests amount to somewhere between 2% and 5% of all priests. This is a significant minority of priests that faithfully serve their Church and their God. We should not exaggerate the problem among Catholic priests. 

Yes, it is only a minority of priests that display this predatory nature (though I would argue that up to 5% of any population of people that actively sexually abuse children is completely frightening and way outside the normal, standard deviation for general populations).

The outrage is not solely focused on the individual priests, admittedly a minority, but on the Catholic institutional leadership and hierarchy as a whole that actively planned, plotted and conspired to bury the truth of what was occurring and thus allowed this abuse to continue in order to save face. The leaders knew about this problem, and instead of addressing it, they tried to hide it, at the cost of tens of thousands of lives ruined. 

I am not sure how a devout Catholic reconciles this sort of evil and deception among all levels of their leadership while still clinging to the belief that their church is led by God.

[Gray]

12 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

In my past conversations with good, faithful Catholics, they have stated that these priests amount to somewhere between 2% and 5% of all priests. This is a significant minority of priests that faithfully serve their Church and their God. We should not exaggerate the problem among Catholic priests. 

Yes. But of course the other issue is institutional coverups at high levels to shield these predators from justice and to keep them in situations where they will continue to prey on children. They've put the "good name" of their church above the well being of their children.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Gray

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, Walden said:

Yes, it is only a minority of priests that display this predatory nature (though I would argue that up to 5% of any population of people that actively sexually abuse children is completely frightening and way outside the normal, standard deviation for general populations).

The outrage is not solely focused on the individual priests, admittedly a minority, but on the Catholic institutional leadership and hierarchy as a whole that actively planned, plotted and conspired to bury the truth of what was occurring and thus allowed this abuse to continue in order to save face. The leaders knew about this problem, and instead of addressing it, they tried to hide it, at the cost of tens of thousands of lives ruined. 

I am not sure how a devout Catholic reconciles this sort of evil and deception among all levels of their leadership while still clinging to the belief that their church is led by God.

I think if you will read Bishop Morlino's article that I linked this is what he discusses. He does not just see the sin of the priests, but of those leaders who have supported them and their sins. This Bishop has spoken plainly and firmly about the problems. If other leaders join him in his clear denunciation of homosexuality in the Catholic Church priesthood and the leaders that have supported them, then Catholics may see a brighter day in the near future. However, there will be a lot of tears and pain before sin is excised and holiness returns to their actions to serve God. 

[Walden]

5 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I think if you will read Bishop Morlino's article that I linked this is what he discusses. He does not just see the sin of the priests, but of those leaders who have supported them and their sins. This Bishop has spoken plainly and firmly about the problems. If other leaders join him in his clear denunciation of homosexuality in the Catholic Church priesthood and the leaders that have supported them, then Catholics may see a brighter day in the near future. However, there will be a lot of tears and pain before sin is excised and holiness returns to their actions to serve God. 

I read Bishop Morlino's article, and I think that he is seizing on this pedophilia crisis in the Catholic church and using it to further his church's stance against homosexuality. Personally, I don't agree with his stance regarding the root of the pedophilia crisis within the Catholic church.  

[Walden]

I also find it wildly disingenuous when Bishop Morlino states, "To fall into the trap of parsing problems according to what society might find acceptable or unacceptable is ignoring the fact that the Church has never held any of it to be acceptable — neither the abuse of children, nor any use of one’s sexuality outside of the marital relationship, nor the sin of sodomy, nor the entering of clerics into intimate sexual relationships at all, nor the abuse and coercion by those with authority."

Of course the Catholic church has deemed pedophile priests as acceptable, as well as abuse and coercion by those in authority, despite what the bishop says....there was an entire, institutional conspiracy within the leadership rankings of the church to actively cover up these issues instead of addressing them....that is plain to see from anyone who has read the Pennsylvania report.

The leadership may have stated that pedophilia among their ranks was unaccepable, but their actions, or rather their gross inaction, over and over and over again, show otherwise.

By actively hiding the abuse of children, the church was facilitating the acceptance of it throughout it's ranks.

[Jeanne]

Each religionn should start NOW and smell its own behinder.  Guilt is everywhere.  This is a problem that is all over the place.

[Storm Rider]

28 minutes ago, Walden said:

I also find it wildly disingenuous when Bishop Morlino states, "To fall into the trap of parsing problems according to what society might find acceptable or unacceptable is ignoring the fact that the Church has never held any of it to be acceptable — neither the abuse of children, nor any use of one’s sexuality outside of the marital relationship, nor the sin of sodomy, nor the entering of clerics into intimate sexual relationships at all, nor the abuse and coercion by those with authority."

Of course the Catholic church has deemed pedophile priests as acceptable, as well as abuse and coercion by those in authority, despite what the bishop says....there was an entire, institutional conspiracy within the leadership rankings of the church to actively cover up these issues instead of addressing them....that is plain to see from anyone who has read the Pennsylvania report.

The leadership may have stated that pedophilia among their ranks was unaccepable, but their actions, or rather their gross inaction, over and over and over again, show otherwise.

By actively hiding the abuse of children, the church was facilitating the acceptance of it throughout it's ranks.

I disagree as I disagree with similar charges against any organization. You are conflating the actions of individuals with the action of an organization. What is absolutely clear is that the Catholic Church has specific teachings on sin - what it is and what it is not. Individual priests and their leaders worked together to keep these sins covered and to keep evil priests functioning as priests.  

When do the scales tip to enable the condemnation of an entire organization? In this instance, when the majority of priests and the leaders fall into sin, to propagating it, and hide it.  I don't think there is any evidence of such a thing in the Catholic Church. I am not stating there is not a huge problem and that a great many priests and leaders should not be laicized or some other similarly harsh punishment that prevents evil priests from harming others and leaders from making horrible decisions  - to the contrary, I think they should. 

[smac97]

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I edited just before seeing your post, I put "out there". I agree it's not like the Catholics, haven't done my reading on it apparently. But have read many articles about cover ups by bishops though, or them not reporting it or asking that the victim not report it, but that was done more in the past I believe.

It sure would be nice if the Church could be credited for its efforts to improve in this regard.  

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

And I've read many an article of bishop's doing the abusing as well, but our church certainly didn't continue to move them from ward house to ward house as you have said the bishops in the Catholic church has done, but moving them from parish to parish so you're right about that.

The bulk of the articles I have read

A) involve allegations only (not convictions),

B) sometimes refer to an abuser as being a former bishop (to sensationalize his post-bishop misconduct, I suppose), and

C) virtually never involve a bishop committing abuse while adhering to Church guidelines (see, e.g., here).  For example:

Quote

Timothy McCleve abused his victims in their own home:

"Because he brought candy, let them play on his laptop games he brought into the house. He put some games on my computer. You know, got them busy doing fun things," the alleged victims' father spoke to 2 News on condition of anonymity.

 

The girls' father says it went beyond computer games to physical contact, "He would wrestle with them; let them climb all over him. Just having a fun time."

And here:

McCleve was sentenced Wednesday to a pair of one-to-15 year prison terms after pleading guilty to two counts of sexual abuse of a child, a second-degree felony. McCleve was the former bishop of the Harrisville LDS Church ward that the girls he sexually abused attended. Police said he would often stop by their home while their parents were away.

I could not find any allegations that any abuse occurred in relation to Mr. McCleve conducting chaperoned interviews in his office in the church building.  How would eliminating bishop interviews have stopped Mr. McCleve?

A bishop is never supposed to visit a woman or child at home unless the husband is at home (or, if there is no husband, the bishop should be accompanied by another adult priesthood holder).  Here, we have a bishop "wrestling" with little girls with their parents present, and also stopping by their home when the parents were away.

I looked up McCleve's 2007 charges (cited in the article above).  He pleaded guilty to the charges and was sentenced to 1-15 years.  He apparently was charged with similar offenses in 2011, and again pleaded guilty and sentenced to prison time.

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

But have always held the church on a pedestal where this is concerned and if it weren't for discussion boards I'd probably still hold them up there as to not to have even done what I've read about. But since doing some research reading about incidents, it is quite a gut punch to know this about our church. Never would have believed it before reading the stats.

What "stats" are you referencing here?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Teancum]

18 hours ago, USU78 said:

They and the RCC have been victimized by these cowardly predators.

Yep.

Happens in the LDS Church too. And the Church pays people off to avoid further scandal.

[USU78]

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yep.

Happens in the LDS Church too. And the Church pays people off to avoid further scandal.

Because of the vagaries of litigation, innocent folks who've done nobody harm get to pay people harmed by others.

Scandal has nothing to do with it.

Edited August 28, 2018 by USU78

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Each religionn should start NOW and smell its own behinder.  Guilt is everywhere.  This is a problem that is all over the place.

Say rather that money is not everywhere, and actual malefactors too often don't have wherewith to pay for the damage they do, whereupon Innocents end up paying the bill.

Not exactly a meritorious system.