Church Finances---official source

[Calm]

For those interested:

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-finances-and-a-growing-global-church

Quote

Following sound financial principles over an extended period of time, the Church has grown from meager beginnings into a worldwide organization able to support its divine mission. Its current relative prosperity only reflects the faith of its members in keeping the law of tithing and the accomplishment in their lives of the Lord’s often-repeated promise that “inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments ye shall prosper in the land” (Alma 9:13).

The Church uses its resources to pursue the Lord’s work by:

Sharing the message of Jesus Christ throughout the world.

Building and maintaining places of worship to strengthen individuals and communities (stakes, districts, wards and branches).

Providing welfare, humanitarian assistance and emergency response to alleviate suffering and help people achieve self-reliance.

Promoting spiritual and secular learning through the Church Educational System (seminaries, institutes, universities and other higher education initiatives).

Building and operating temples and sustaining family history work to strengthen families.

Supporting general institutional administration.

Resources used to carry out this work come principally from the tithing donations of Church members. A small portion of funds comes from businesses maintained by the Church....

Quite a bit more.

[Marginal Gains]

Quote

 

Q: Why doesn’t the Church publish its financial information? 

The Church is not a financial institution or a commercial corporation. It has no other objective than preaching the gospel and inviting all to come unto Christ. While the Church chooses not to publish the details of its finances, the Church does provide public information on the financial principles it follows, the financial controls in place to protect Church funds and the source and use of these funds. The Church also provides all financial information required by law.

 

The response doesn’t actually answer the question. We still don’t know “why” “the Church chooses not to publish the details of its finances”.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[Marginal Gains]

Quote

 

Q: Why does the Church maintain financial reserves when there are so many unmet humanitarian needs currently in the world? 

The Church has spent billions of dollars over the past few years to meet welfare and humanitarian needs around the world.

 

I don’t believe this^ statement is accurate.

Quote

 

In a lecture given last month at the University of Oxford, Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said that each year The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints spends about $40 million on welfare, humanitarian and other LDS Church-sponsored projects around the world and has done so for more than 30 years.

That would account for approximately $1.2 billion on welfare and humanitarian efforts over the past 30 years. Elder Oaks also said that in the last year alone, Mormon volunteers have devoted 25 million hours of labor.

 

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865657898/LDS-Church-welfare-humanitarian-efforts-average-40-million-per-year-apostle-says.html

 

Edited May 23, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

The response doesn’t actually answer the question. We still don’t know “why” “the Church chooses not to publish the details of its finances”.

See the Q&A section:

Q: Why doesn’t the Church publish its financial information?

The Church is not a financial institution or a commercial corporation. It has no other objective than preaching the gospel and inviting all to come unto Christ. While the Church chooses not to publish the details of its finances, the Church does provide public information on the financial principles it follows, the financial controls in place to protect Church funds and the source and use of these funds. The Church also provides all financial information required by law.

[Marginal Gains]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

See the Q&A section:

Q: Why doesn’t the Church publish its financial information?

The Church is not a financial institution or a commercial corporation. It has no other objective than preaching the gospel and inviting all to come unto Christ. While the Church chooses not to publish the details of its finances, the Church does provide public information on the financial principles it follows, the financial controls in place to protect Church funds and the source and use of these funds. The Church also provides all financial information required by law.

I did. Which is why my post, that you are responding to, contained the quote you’ve replicated. It doesn’t answer the question. It specifically avoids answering the question.

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

The response doesn’t actually answer the question. We still don’t know “why” “the Church chooses not to publish the details of its finances”.

The question was, "Why doesn't the church publish its financial information?" That question was answered.

Now, I know that It isn't the question you want to have answered - I get that - but that doesn't mean the question wasn't answered. 

 

[SteveO]

12 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

I did. Which is why my post, that you are responding to, contained the quote you’ve replicated. It doesn’t answer the question. It specifically avoids answering the question.

It does answer the question.  They don't provide the financial information because they don't HAVE to.   
 

[hope_for_things]

3 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

The response doesn’t actually answer the question. We still don’t know “why” “the Church chooses not to publish the details of its finances”.

I thought that the first time I read it as well, the writing style is annoying because you'd expect with a Q&A section to have a question and then a direct answer to that question in answer format, but that's not how its worded.  The answer is at the bottom of the paragraph when it says that the church provides all the information required by law.  I wish they would word these "answers" differently.  I could imagine something like this:

Q - Why doesn't the church publish its financial information?  

A - Because they aren't required by law to disclose financial information.  The philosophy of the church is to keep as much information private as possible and only make public any information that is required by law or in other situations when it becomes expedient for good public relations.  

Now that would be an honest and straightforward answer.  I actually think I could write better answers that are more honest depictions of how the church operates than what was presented in this newsroom piece.  

[hope_for_things]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

For those interested:

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-finances-and-a-growing-global-church

Quite a bit more.

What did you think about this quote?  

Quote

The Church has spent billions of dollars over the past few years to meet welfare and humanitarian needs around the world. 

I'm questioning how they define this spend on welfare and humanitarian needs for the purposes of claiming billions of dollars of spend in the past few years.  This sounds good on its face, but unless they are willing to explain how this is defined and how it fits into the larger context of the revenues generated, then it really doesn't tell us much about how the church spends its money and whether they are being generous or stingy. 

Its clear to me from this newsroom post that the church is trying to portray a fiscally generous image.  I suspect they are doing this in response to criticism that has been received in recent years.  However, without any details to show what they are doing, this may be just smoke and mirrors.  I would like to think that the church is being generous with all the tithing dollars that so many faithful Mormons have contributed over the years, unfortunately without more transparency we just don't know. 

I get the impression from this whole article that they are trying to get the benefit of the doubt from the public on this issue, but at the same time may be operating an organization that is quite stingy compared to many other charitable organizations and religious institutions.  

[Marginal Gains]

16 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

What did you think about this quote?  

I'm questioning how they define this spend on welfare and humanitarian needs for the purposes of claiming billions of dollars of spend in the past few years.  This sounds good on its face, but unless they are willing to explain how this is defined and how it fits into the larger context of the revenues generated, then it really doesn't tell us much about how the church spends its money and whether they are being generous or stingy. 

Its clear to me from this newsroom post that the church is trying to portray a fiscally generous image.  I suspect they are doing this in response to criticism that has been received in recent years.  However, without any details to show what they are doing, this may be just smoke and mirrors.  I would like to think that the church is being generous with all the tithing dollars that so many faithful Mormons have contributed over the years, unfortunately without more transparency we just don't know. 

I get the impression from this whole article that they are trying to get the benefit of the doubt from the public on this issue, but at the same time may be operating an organization that is quite stingy compared to many other charitable organizations and religious institutions.  

The response “The Church has spent billions of dollars over the past few years to meet welfare and humanitarian needs around the world.” is completely at odds with:

Quote

Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said that each year The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints spends about $40 million on welfare, humanitarian and other LDS Church-sponsored projects around the world and has done so for more than 30 years.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865657898/LDS-Church-welfare-humanitarian-efforts-average-40-million-per-year-apostle-says.html

Which would amount to a total of $1.2 billion across 30 years.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[hope_for_things]

3 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

The response “The Church has spent billions of dollars over the past few years to meet welfare and humanitarian needs around the world.” is completely at odds with:

Which would amount to a total of $1.2 billion across 30 years.

Yes, nice job pulling up that $40M quote, do you have a link to when and where that Oaks statement was made?  

The claim of Billions did seem odd to me considering what I've read in the past.  Also, I wonder if they include fast offerings for members as part of that number.  What is included and how they define these categories makes all the difference.  Without transparency, they can tell us virtually anything and there is no way of verifying the accuracy of these statements.  

[Marginal Gains]

1 minute ago, hope_for_things said:

Yes, nice job pulling up that $40M quote, do you have a link to when and where that Oaks statement was made?  

The claim of Billions did seem odd to me considering what I've read in the past.  Also, I wonder if they include fast offerings for members as part of that number.  What is included and how they define these categories makes all the difference.  Without transparency, they can tell us virtually anything and there is no way of verifying the accuracy of these statements.  

I’ve added the link above (it was in the post I made earlier too).

There are two problems with the Presiding Bishops claim. The first is the term “Billions” and the second is the phrase “over the past few years”. Pres. Oaks has made it clear it’s less than 2 billion across the past 30 years. I’m sorry but the Presiding Bishops statement looks to be...well...something other than true.

[Exiled]

Still no disclosure on the revenue side. I think everyone can acknowledge that the church has costs, but how much does it take in tithing every year? How much do the for profit business earn? 

[HappyJackWagon]

41 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I thought that the first time I read it as well, the writing style is annoying because you'd expect with a Q&A section to have a question and then a direct answer to that question in answer format, but that's not how its worded.  The answer is at the bottom of the paragraph when it says that the church provides all the information required by law.  I wish they would word these "answers" differently.  I could imagine something like this:

Q - Why doesn't the church publish its financial information?  

A - Because they aren't required by law to disclose financial information.  The philosophy of the church is to keep as much information private as possible and only make public any information that is required by law or in other situations when it becomes expedient for good public relations.  

Now that would be an honest and straightforward answer.  I actually think I could write better answers that are more honest depictions of how the church operates than what was presented in this newsroom piece.  

I agree with Marginal- They don't really answer the question. They leave it for us to fill in the vast blanks about why.

WHY do they only disclose that which is required by law? Why not more? There may be a very good reason but they don't state it.

Quote

 

Q: Why doesn’t the Church publish its financial information?

The Church is not a financial institution or a commercial corporation. It has no other objective than preaching the gospel and inviting all to come unto Christ. While the Church chooses not to publish the details of its finances, the Church does provide public information on the financial principles it follows, the financial controls in place to protect Church funds and the source and use of these funds. The Church also provides all financial information required by law.

 

It explains what the church does, but not why it doesn't publish its financial information. Why does the "Church choose not to publish the details of its finances"? That is the question but they avoid answering.

 

[Exiled]

11 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I agree with Marginal- They don't really answer the question. They leave it for us to fill in the vast blanks about why.

WHY do they only disclose that which is required by law? Why not more? There may be a very good reason but they don't state it.

It explains what the church does, but not why it doesn't publish its financial information. Why does the "Church choose not to publish the details of its finances"? That is the question but they avoid answering.

 

My guess is that the church has taken in a lot more in tithing than it has in expenses over the last 30 years and is probably sitting on a huge pile of money. Disclosure would cause a wave of demands for more humanitarian expenses and demands to change the tax exemption it enjoys. It can't have that. Also, people might question why a church needs so much money.

[LoudmouthMormon]

Ward finance clerk here.  I know I'm small potatoes compared to the fun big numbers of a global church. 

That said, my ward and I get audited twice yearly.  The stake guy who performs the audits, is actually an active duty cop, with criminal forensic auditing experience.   He caught us reimbursing sister somebody $7.29 for cheese, when she only spent $7.09.  That was an audit ding.  A major emphasis of these audits, is to determine if the bishop or any family members received fast offerings funds.  (Never happened on my watch, but they look closely for it.)   They also microexamine every Fast Offering check written to a member instead of a company.

I think I impressed him, because in my first audit, the first random record he went through, included me finding a one penny error and correcting it before writing the check.  

[hope_for_things]

16 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I agree with Marginal- They don't really answer the question. They leave it for us to fill in the vast blanks about why.

WHY do they only disclose that which is required by law? Why not more? There may be a very good reason but they don't state it.

It explains what the church does, but not why it doesn't publish its financial information. Why does the "Church choose not to publish the details of its finances"? That is the question but they avoid answering.

I totally agree that the answer is not sufficient.  The WHY they want us to believe is because its not required by law.  But that isn't a full explanation.  Besides, does the church only do things that are required by law?  Articulating why should be more robust than the answer they gave.  I agree that its not a good answer.  

[Maidservant]

What is it do we think the Church is spending money on that isn't clear that they are spending money on simply by looking at real time outcomes?  Buildings, books, programs, missionaries, education, community development, the arts, farms, canneries, humanitarian etc.  I mean, are we talking wild parties here?  Personal Swiss accounts? 

How far off can they have gotten?  I mean, it's one thing to say: I wish they wouldn't buy expensive chandeliers for the temples; and another to say I wish they wouldn't spend money on the lavish lifestyles for their secret concubines.

Can we grant that while we might not agree on all the details of what their budget should look like, they are consistently spending ON A PURPOSE to improve mankind on a variety of levels?  What is it that is actually secret?  It's  evident in real time where the money is going.

Real question.

[Marginal Gains]

1 minute ago, Maidservant said:

What is it do we think the Church is spending money on that isn't clear that they are spending money on simply by looking at real time outcomes?  Buildings, books, programs, missionaries, education, community development, the arts, farms, canneries, humanitarian etc.  I mean, are we talking wild parties here?  Personal Swiss accounts? 

How far off can they have gotten?  I mean, it's one thing to say: I wish they wouldn't buy expensive chandeliers for the temples; and another to say I wish they wouldn't spend money on the lavish lifestyles for their secret concubines.

Can we grant that while we might not agree on all the details of what their budget should look like, they are consistently spending ON A PURPOSE to improve mankind on a variety of levels?  What is it that is actually secret?  It's  evident in real time where the money is going.

Real question.

We can’t agree on that because we don’t know where the money is going in real time. How much does a temple cost? How many houses are bought for GA’s? What expenses do they claim? What is the total expenditure on stipend? Etc.

[jpv]

4 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

The response doesn’t actually answer the question. We still don’t know “why” “the Church chooses not to publish the details of its finances”.

It's because the Church went into debt majorly under the Henry D. Moyle baseball baptism/building plan era. 

I would guess if baptisms continue to fall, those will no longer be reported, even if there is an uptick again.

The closest visibility we have now is Quinn's work, you could almost sense the Tribune's disappointment at the findings of an excommunicated member concluding that finances of the church are upright and in order.

the LDS Church’s financial trajectory, as well as the self-sacrificing actions of its hierarchy, is “an enormously faith-promoting story.”

"If everyday Mormons could grasp “the larger picture,” he says, they would “breathe a sigh of relief and see the church is not a profit-making business.”

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2017/10/14/historian-digs-into-the-hidden-world-of-mormon-finances-shows-how-church-went-from-losing-money-to-making-money-lots-of-it/

[hope_for_things]

8 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

What is it do we think the Church is spending money on that isn't clear that they are spending money on simply by looking at real time outcomes?  Buildings, books, programs, missionaries, education, community development, the arts, farms, canneries, humanitarian etc.  I mean, are we talking wild parties here?  Personal Swiss accounts? 

How far off can they have gotten?  I mean, it's one thing to say: I wish they wouldn't buy expensive chandeliers for the temples; and another to say I wish they wouldn't spend money on the lavish lifestyles for their secret concubines.

Can we grant that while we might not agree on all the details of what their budget should look like, they are consistently spending ON A PURPOSE to improve mankind on a variety of levels?  What is it that is actually secret?  It's  evident in real time where the money is going.

Real question.

Good question.   I want to see the entire financial statements, so we can see how everything is being spent.  Your point about extravagant spending on the temples is a good point and yes I think they spend too much money on temples.  

The reason that they were asked about charitable donations and helping the poor is that this is a big criticism of the church.  I'd like to know what % of their total revenue generated is spent on charitable giving and helping the poor and needy.  

For example, if the church spends $500M per year building temples, but only spends $40M per year helping the poor, then I personally have a problem with the prioritization of those funds.  Especially if the estimates I've heard from some thoughtful people that have estimated total revenue in the $30B - $50B range annually.  If they only give $40M to charity then that is less that is one tenth of one percent, or 0.001.  If that is an accurate ballpark estimate, then many people may have a very big problem with how the church uses its significant funds.  

Personally, I doubt there is much fraud or people living extravagantly off the funds of the church. 

[Analytics]

Something that has been discussed in this forum over the years is what is the source of the Church's "corporate empire." When the church constructs a 2-billion dollar mega mall or purchases 2% of the state of Florida, where does the money come from? Some have argued that there is a strict distinction between sacred funds from tithing and secular funds from business profits, and that sacred funds are used strictly on sacred things, while the secular funds are used to continue to grow the church's corporate interests.

That debate should now be placed to rest. The church's assets are fungible--there is no distinction between sacred money and secular money. All of it is considered sacred, and the vast majority of capital in the corporate interests originated from "the sacred tithes and offerings given by members."

 

Q: Does the Church have investment reserves? What kinds of investments does the Church possess?

The Church maintains diversified reserves — including common stocks and bonds, interests in taxable businesses, commercial and residential real estate and agricultural properties — to provide financial support for the Church’s ongoing and future operations. These funds are invested solely to support the Church’s mission to preach the gospel to all nations and prepare for the Lord’s Second Coming.

Q: Where does the money for the Church’s reserves come from?

The vast majority of Church operations are funded through the sacred tithes and offerings given by members. The Church operates within its means and sets aside a portion of its funds each year. The Church follows the financial principles it teaches: living within a budget, avoiding debt, and saving and investing for the future.

 

Edited May 23, 2018 by Analytics

[Exiled]

10 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

What is it do we think the Church is spending money on that isn't clear that they are spending money on simply by looking at real time outcomes?  Buildings, books, programs, missionaries, education, community development, the arts, farms, canneries, humanitarian etc.  I mean, are we talking wild parties here?  Personal Swiss accounts? 

How far off can they have gotten?  I mean, it's one thing to say: I wish they wouldn't buy expensive chandeliers for the temples; and another to say I wish they wouldn't spend money on the lavish lifestyles for their secret concubines.

Can we grant that while we might not agree on all the details of what their budget should look like, they are consistently spending ON A PURPOSE to improve mankind on a variety of levels?  What is it that is actually secret?  It's  evident in real time where the money is going.

Real question.

My guess is that there is some exaggeration in the spending.  Marginal gains pointed that out.  I agree that the leaders aren't spending lavishly on themselves, though.  However, the idea of church finances today is to hoard money.  Ever since MacKay, Moyle, and co. almost bankrupted the church with their over-building program, the church became a financial miser.  My question is how much money the church is sitting on?  I think all can agree that the church has expenses.  We can argue around the edges as to how much those expenses are but the real question, and closely held secret is on the revenue side, the tithing and contributions side.  Until we know that, telling the church membership about expenses is misleadingly giving the impression that the church has a rough time covering the expenses.  It doesn't precisely because it doesn't disclose anything on the revenue side.  My guess is that it is sitting on a huge pile of money that rightfully should be distributed out, but is not. 

[Maidservant]

4 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

We can’t agree on that because we don’t know where the money is going in real time. How much does a temple cost? How many houses are bought for GA’s? What expenses do they claim? What is the total expenditure on stipend? Etc.

Thank you for the reply so I can understand more where you are coming from.

I think we all know temples cost a boatload.  That's not a secret and never has been. Women smashed their China to put in an early temple (can't remember if it was Kirtland or Nauvoo). We know the finest things go into them.  If we saw the dollar amount it would not be surprising, because most of us can ballpark that.  It's not a secret.  If I found out that the exact amount of a temple was 3 billion a piece (or whatever), and I have been guessing 2.5 billion--finding out it was 3 billion doesn't constitute a surprise revelation.  It's not a secret.

When you talk about money for GAs--their lifestyle is not a secret.  It's evident.  So whatever they are given results in the lifestyle you see on a day to day basis.  Daily dedication to the Church and its people.  Again, if I thought they got 100,000 a year, and I found out they got 300,000--it's not a secret because I already know how they are living with whatever it is they do get.

[Maidservant]

4 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Good question.   I want to see the entire financial statements, so we can see how everything is being spent.  Your point about extravagant spending on the temples is a good point and yes I think they spend too much money on temples.  

The reason that they were asked about charitable donations and helping the poor is that this is a big criticism of the church.  I'd like to know what % of their total revenue generated is spent on charitable giving and helping the poor and needy.  

For example, if the church spends $500M per year building temples, but only spends $40M per year helping the poor, then I personally have a problem with the prioritization of those funds.  Especially if the estimates I've heard from some thoughtful people that have estimated total revenue in the $30B - $50B range annually.  If they only give $40M to charity then that is less that is one tenth of one percent, or 0.001.  If that is an accurate ballpark estimate, then many people may have a very big problem with how the church uses its significant funds.  

Personally, I doubt there is much fraud or people living extravagantly off the funds of the church. 

Okay.  I do disagree, but thanks for taking a moment to explain more.

I guess I just don't have a problem with expensive temples, because it seems like a necessary symbolic point to me; and temples themselves (although one could argue perhaps a simpler temple--but I don't agree) produce covenant people with greater spiritual resources to create their lives (i.e. heaven on earth) including the part where they donate to humanitarian causes instead of not being able to rise to the position of having surplus.