Sharply shifting religious landscape

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, cinepro said:

To be fair, it's been prophesied by many atheists too.

OK.

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

What I found interesting is that only 9% of Mormons identify as democrat.  It is definitely a very conservative republican church

I can think of one foundational issue for the Democrats that makes it difficult for most Mormons to join them.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Duncan said:

in the States

As if anywhere else matters.

[mfbukowski]

18 hours ago, california boy said:

What I found interesting is that only 9% of Mormons identify as democrat.  It is definitely a very conservative republican church

I'm surprised you are surprised.

Individualism self-reliance and free agency are at the very basis of all the doctrine, as well as the idea that we each have to have our own testimonies.

Interference from mobs and the government is why the Saints ended up in Utah.

Obviously these traits are also found in Democrats but I think they're more pronounced in Republicans.

 

 

[Jeanne]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I can think of one foundational issue for the Democrats that makes it difficult for most Mormons to join them.

😊I am sure there are many.  In so many ways..mormons vote how they are told..don't you think?  Does anyone get to think?  I don't mean to be critical..the church, I know cannot tell us how to vote..but tend to imply and implement there beliefs to a government as a whole.  Then you sit down for Temple interviews and are asked if you believe and follow the propohet..where does that leave you?

Quick Edit...I do understand that this holds for many other churches..Catholics for example.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Jeanne

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

😊I am sure there are many.  In so many ways..mormons vote how they are told..don't you think?  Does anyone get to think?  I don't mean to be critical..the church, I know cannot tell us how to vote..but tend to imply and implement there beliefs to a government as a whole.  Then you sit down for Temple interviews and are asked if you believe and follow the propohet..where does that leave you?

Quick Edit...I do understand that this holds for many other churches..Catholics for example.

Every time you post something like this I am totally flabbergasted how your view of the church as being authoritarian is 180 degrees diametrically opposed to my view of the church over the last 40 years of my membership.

I joined the church based on Moroni 10:4-5 which says to ask God for wisdom  of any kind we need. It doesn't say ask the prophet, it doesn't say ask anybody but God. Follow the prophet yes if the spirit confirms his advice.

In my book the church is totally based on individualism and self-reliance.

This is the least authoritarian church I can even imagine.

Forty years mostly in ward and stake leadership.

I just can't comprehend it.

Temple recommend interviews ask if you sustain the prophet.  That means you recognize him as the leader of the church. Obviously he is the leader of the church. What's there to worry about?

He gives advice and you pray about it. I don't see anything authoritarian  in that.

Every organization needs a leader. Of course the leader is there to lead. He isn't going to say ignore my words, he is going to say "listen to me"

He would not be a leader if he did not expect people to follow him.

But in no way does that imply some kind of robotic control he has. You sustain him as your leader and take his advice or not take it as you see fit.

If on a consistent basis you find that all the leaders are wrong you join some other organization.

This is not rocket science.

 

Edited May 12, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Jeanne]

I will quit posting for awhile..seems like most here are flabbergasted at my stupidity.  and Calm agrees!!

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I will quit posting for awhile..seems like most here are flabbergasted at my stupidity.  and Calm agrees!!

I am agreeing with mfb's personal experience, his is similar to mine.

Doesnt mean I don't believe others who say their experience was different.  There are probably a number of highly authoritarian leaders out there. Perhaps what leads mine and mfb's experiences are we don't care about their attitudes because we don't see them as determining factors in our choices.

I have never experienced any form of hero worship or looked at someone as a role model (I want to be like ______) in my entire life.

There is Authority/God's power in the ordinances and covenants we make.  Authority in forcing me to act a certain way or believe a certain thing...I just don't experience life that way.  My dad certainly tried because he sincerely believed his way was the least painful and most efficient.  Never stopped me from living life the way I chose though.  I compare what I went through with Dad and the rest of the world and the only ones that come close is the government where the penalty for not doing things the way they want is they can take my money and my body and put them where I don't want them...pretty persuasive that.

My way works very well for me.  I assume there may be others it works for or could work for, but I certainly don't believe it works for everyone and that doesn't bother me a bit or make me think less of others.  People are meant to find their own way.

My only problem is when people insist the Church as a whole MUST be a certain way because that is how they react to it rather than recognizing they bring a whole lot of input into the relationship, much more than the Church does, in fact.  We see things as we are.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Jeanne said:

😊I am sure there are many.  In so many ways..mormons vote how they are told..don't you think?  Does anyone get to think?  I don't mean to be critical..the church, I know cannot tell us how to vote..but tend to imply and implement there beliefs to a government as a whole.  Then you sit down for Temple interviews and are asked if you believe and follow the propohet..where does that leave you?

Quick Edit...I do understand that this holds for many other churches..Catholics for example.

No offense meant, but this is just not true. Nobody tells me how to vote and I don’t tell anyone how they should vote. I have never been told how to vote by “the Church.” Who tells Mormons how to vote? I vote for the person who best represents my views...including moral views. I suspect most people do that. 

Edited May 12, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

26 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I will quit posting for awhile..seems like most here are flabbergasted at my stupidity.  and Calm agrees!!

You are not stupid. No one says you are. 

[california boy]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I'm surprised you are surprised.

Individualism self-reliance and free agency are at the very basis of all the doctrine, as well as the idea that we each have to have our own testimonies.

Interference from mobs and the government is why the Saints ended up in Utah.

Obviously these traits are also found in Democrats but I think they're more pronounced in Republicans.

 

 

Well maybe Mormons are right. God only has one true political point of view.  

[california boy]

All of you that are beating up on Jeanne, do you believe that the leader of the Mormon church is the only person authorized to be the mouthpiece of Christ on earth?

and if you believe that, do you believe that if someone feels the Spirit is directing them against what the prophet says must be wrong?

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, california boy said:

All of you that are beating up on Jeanne...

Are you suggesting explaining that our experiences have been different from hers (thus her use of "we" is over broad) is "beating up"?

Quote

do you believe that the leader of the Mormon church is the only person authorized to be the mouthpiece of Christ on earth?

In terms of the Church and his covenants for God's kingdom as a whole?  Yes.

In terms of individuals and communities and even the world as a whole, no way.  God speaks through many people. They are authorized as much as God/the Spirit chooses to witness their authority.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I will quit posting for awhile..seems like most here are flabbergasted at my stupidity.  and Calm agrees!!

Not stupidity just different experience.

[mfbukowski]

37 minutes ago, california boy said:

All of you that are beating up on Jeanne, do you believe that the leader of the Mormon church is the only person authorized to be the mouthpiece of Christ on earth?

and if you believe that, do you believe that if someone feels the Spirit is directing them against what the prophet says must be wrong?

All we are saying is we have to all follow our consciences.

And no I am my personal mouthpiece for Christ.

You get be on that and you end up drinking the Kool-Aid.

[california boy]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are you suggesting explaining that our experiences have been different from hers (thus her use of "we" is over broad) is "beating up"?

In terms of the Church and his covenants for God's kingdom as a hole?  Yes.

In terms of individuals and communities and even the world as a whole, no way.  God speaks through many people. They are authorized as much as God/the Spirit chooses to witness their authority.

That is not really what I asked.  But I am trying to understand this answer as well.  Are you saying that the prophet of God is only the prophet of God for the Mormon church and not the whole world whether they listen to him or not? And when God speaks through many people, are you saying that they are on equal footing as the leader of the Mormon Church for speaking for God?  Again what I am asking is if you believe that the prophet is the only person on earth that is the authorized mouthpiece for Christ on earth?  Or are these other people also authorized by Christ to be His mouthpiece on earth?

 I really need to understand how you feel about both questions as they were asked to understand why you would support mfbukowski's dismissive post directed at Jeanne's comment.

Here is the second question you ignored, which is so unlike you.  I am kind of surprised you did, given your strong answer you gave Jeanne.

And if you believe that, do you believe that if someone feels the Spirit is directing them against what the prophet says must be wrong?  

What if that person is a member of the Church?

But thanks for at least posting something.  I really am interested in hearing your answer to what I asked.

[california boy]

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

All we are saying is we have to all follow our consciences.

And no I am my personal mouthpiece for Christ.

You get be on that and you end up drinking the Kool-Aid.

You didn't answer either question either.  They are pretty important questions when you look at how dismissive your post was to Jeanne's comment.  

49 minutes ago, california boy said:

Do you believe that the leader of the Mormon church is the only person authorized to be the mouthpiece of Christ on earth?

And if you believe that, do you believe that if someone feels the Spirit is directing them against what the prophet says must be wrong?

And a follow up question to clarify.  What if that person who feels the Spirit is directing them against what the prophet says is a member of the church?  Are they wrong to have received a different answer than the prophet of God?  And are you saying you don't believe the prophet is the only authorized mouthpiece on earth for God?

Edited May 13, 2018 by california boy

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

All of you that are beating up on Jeanne, do you believe that the leader of the Mormon church is the only person authorized to be the mouthpiece of Christ on earth?

and if you believe that, do you believe that if someone feels the Spirit is directing them against what the prophet says must be wrong?

Lets rewind that back a few thousand years. 

"Do you believe that the leader of the Jews (Moses) is the only person authorized to be the mouthpiece of God on earth?  And if you believe that, do you believe that if someone feels the Spirit directing them against what Moses says must be wrong?  One can insert other people as well.  Perhaps even Jesus? 

As for me,  God can use a lot of different people to further his work but God works by order. He does not have lots of people saying different things that go against each other.  Unless of course God loves chaos and people fighting against each other.  So on authoritative issues where something must be established for all, it can only come from one voice or person if God chooses order over chaos.  Can a prophet be wrong?  Yes but one better be careful thinking that if they are right and the prophet is wrong on something that they are better than the prophet and think they can replace the prophet.  If the prophet is right 99% of the time but wrong once, is the person who is correcting the prophet better if they are right only 50% of the time on other things?  The problem that many have is when they seen the prophet wrong on issue X, they become prideful and then they think they are justified to reject the prophet on other issues as well that they don't like or personally agree with.  

Remember what the Lord has said regarding things generally.  Whether it be by my voice or the voice of my servants it is the same.  So we should be very careful and think things through very slowly before rejecting what God's servants say as God may consider that rejection as a rejection against God himself and hold that person accountable for it at judgement.

Edited May 13, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[mfbukowski]

35 minutes ago, california boy said:

You didn't answer either question either.  They are pretty important questions when you look at how dismissive your post was to Jeanne's comment.  

And a follow up question to clarify.  What if that person who feels the Spirit is directing them against what the prophet says is a member of the church?  Are they wrong to have received a different answer than the prophet of God?  And are you saying you don't believe the prophet is the only authorized mouthpiece on earth for God?

The prophet is the spokesman for the church, and receives revelation for the church.

You are the spokesman for you and receive revelation for you.

Revelation is about what is best for the individual asking the question in his sphere, DC 99.

It is not objective information about the nature of the universe.

God will lead the person on the best path for that individual to get closer to Him.  if you are a drunk on skid row and the Salvation Army finds you and you get a confirmation that you should follow the Salvation Army that is a real Revelation for you because it gets you closer to the Lord.

If you live in Uzbekistan the Lord may lead you to another church if they've never heard of Jesus Christ. Something closer to where God wants you

This is about meaning in your personal life, not about what makes rockets fly.

 

[Storm Rider]

17 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Lets rewind that back a few thousand years. 

"Do you believe that the leader of the Jews (Moses) is the only person authorized to be the mouthpiece of God on earth?  And if you believe that, do you believe that if someone feels the Spirit directing them against what Moses says must be wrong?  One can insert other people as well.  Perhaps even Jesus? 

As for me,  God can use a lot of different people to further his work but God works by order. He does not have lots of people saying different things that go against each other.  Unless of course God loves chaos and people fighting against each other.  So on authoritative issues where something must be established for all, it can only come from one voice or person if God chooses order over chaos.  Can a prophet be wrong?  Yes but one better be careful thinking that if they are right and the prophet is wrong on something that they are better than the prophet and think they can replace the prophet.  If the prophet is right 99% of the time but wrong once, is the person who is correcting the prophet better if they are right only 50% of the time on other things?  The problem that many have is when they seen the prophet wrong on issue X, they become prideful and then they think they are justified to reject the prophet on other issues as well that they don't like or personally agree with.  

Remember what the Lord has said regarding things generally.  Whether it be by my voice or the voice of my servants it is the same.  So we should be very careful and think things through very slowly before rejecting what God's servants say as God may consider that rejection as a rejection against God himself and hold that person accountable for it at judgement.

I have concluded that God does the best he can with the tools he has - specifically, he speaks through certain people all over the world and prophets are found in various religions.  It is clear to me that God's greatest desire is for us to return to his presence and dwell with him. Again, specifically, he seeks the exaltation of his children.

The problem is that to be exalted his children must live by certain commandments and be prepared to enter into covenants with eternal value. Many of God's children will fall short of that in this mortal life. They approach God in degrees and may miss entirely the path, in this life, that leads to Exaltation. Others may find the path of Exaltation and make a choice that it is not a law they can live - they seek out a lesser law, but one where they can glorify God and still bring light into this world. 

It may look like chaos to us, but God's fight is against all evil and all the machinations of the evil one. He allows us to choose to what degree of truth we are willing to accept and guides each as best as they allow.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Well maybe Mormons are right. God only has one true political point of view.  

I have no clue why you said this, or even what it had to do with the thread.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

All of you that are beating up on Jeanne, do you believe that the leader of the Mormon church is the only person authorized to be the mouthpiece of Christ on earth?

and if you believe that, do you believe that if someone feels the Spirit is directing them against what the prophet says must be wrong?

You obviously have been raised within the church. Any convert knows that one must be convinced that the prophet is correct. That is not a rational mathematical procedure. It is a process in the heart. There are no mathematical equations to prove if the prophet is correct or not.

That means they have been raised thinking the Prophet is not correct and have now changed their opinion.

That doesn't mean that they have been wrong all of their lives. It simply means that they have found a way which is better for them.

Correct or not it appears that you are totally immersed in black and white thinking. That seems odd for a person who has obviously gone through a major change in thinking about what is right or wrong for them in their lives, as we know you have.

Do you believe that the spirit directing you now in the direction you believe he is leading you means that you have been totally wrong your entire life? And that people who believe the way you once did are now totally wrong?

And so there is only one true way for people to be correct and moral people that God loves, and so the way you have found is the only true way?

I don't believe for one minute that you believe that. I think you believe that there are many ways for people to achieve happiness and being close to God.

So why do you think we believe that?

All we disagree about is whether or not certain behaviors are inherently morally wrong.

And yet many LDS people would disagree with me on that particular point, believing that those behaviors in certain circumstances may not be wrong.

We do not disagree that everyone has to find what works for them in their lives, to make themselves happy.

Can you see the difference there?

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

Cb, not sure why you do not see my comment as an answer...communication issue example, I guess.

Perhaps this analogy may help.

I see myself as pretty much a kindergartener, attending school, knowing enough to know something is new and important, not so much what makes it important.  The prophet is still a child as much as I am, no mortal has yet moved on past elementary as we are all still learning the basics.  I am guessing when it compares to eternity, this mortality is junior elementary school even.  Because the prophet has greater experience...especially spiritual, both in terms of time and exposure, I see the prophet as more a 2nd grader, maybe even third in some ways.  And as a third grader, God being a wise and efficient teacher, uses him as a tutor to help other elementary kids, both his own level and those of us not there yet.  This can be very useful, but limiting if that is the only source of knowledge one relies on. 

The kids at my daughter's school were tutored both by parents like me and students in upper grades or even in the same grade.  My daughter worked in 2nd grade with the girl who became her best friend, helping her to learn to read English while she in turned learned how to be more confident, more outgoing...learned that others liked being around her.  It was a very good experience for me (I had been tutoring since 8th grade but it felt much of the time like a waste, it was good to see from the 'outside' as it helped me u derstand the actual process much better) to see how kids could help other kids learn and by doing so become better not only at what they were teaching, but in other things.  Some of the kids learned better from other kids than they did with adults because somehow communication worked better with someone like themselves, who would use just a little more advanced language and ideas; others did much better just talking with the teacher, they got distracted too easily when taught by other kids. 

 The kindergartener can get many questions answered by a third grader, get taught many things...both by listening to what is said and watching what is done.  But that third grader can only take learning so far nor can they be the foundation of the learning because they don't have a grasp on how everything fits together. The teacher provides the basics and the depth; what the third grader provides is experience, both for the kindergartener to practice themselves when interacting with the 3rd grader and to learn from watching and listening to the third grader.  When the child wants to learn more, looking to the teacher is what will move them past elementary life, give them a chance to expand into new ways of doing things rather than just learning to be good with what is already known.

And yes, I believe our teacher, God, has chosen the prophet to share what the teacher has taught him to the best of his ability as our official class tutor.  He is not to replace the teacher though, but to speak when Teacher tells him it is his turn.   Those who expect him to substitute for the teacher will find out they are not learning as well, including picking up some of the errors he hasn't learned he is wrong on yet.  However, a mix of paying close attention to Teacher and all those who Teacher chooses to help us, instruct us, will get us much farther than just insisting on one form of learning.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

Cb, not sure why you do not see my comment as an answer...communication issue example, I guess.

Perhaps this analogy may help.

I see myself as pretty much a kindergartener, attending school, knowing enough to know something is new and important, not so much what makes it important.  The prophet is still a child as much as I am, no mortal has yet moved on past elementary as we are all still learning the basics.  I am guessing when it compares to eternity, this mortality is junior elementary school even.  Because the prophet has greater experience...especially spiritual, both in terms of time and exposure, I see the prophet as more a 2nd grader, maybe even third in some ways.  And as a third grader, God being a wise and efficient teacher, uses him as a tutor to help other elementary kids, both his own level and those of us not there yet.  This can be very useful, but limiting if that is the only source of knowledge one relies on. 

The kids at my daughter's school were tutored both by parents like me and students in upper grades or even in the same grade.  My daughter worked in 2nd grade with the girl who became her best friend, helping her to learn to read English while she in turned learned how to be more confident, more outgoing...learned that others liked being around her.  It was a very good experience for me (I had been tutoring since 8th grade but it felt much of the time like a waste, it was good to see from the 'outside' as it helped me u derstand the actual process much better) to see how kids could help other kids learn and by doing so become better not only at what they were teaching, but in other things.  Some of the kids learned better from other kids than they did with adults because somehow communication worked better with someone like themselves, who would use just a little more advanced language and ideas; others did much better just talking with the teacher, they got distracted too easily when taught by other kids. 

 The kindergartener can get many questions answered by a third grader, get taught many things...both by listening to what is said and watching what is done.  But that third grader can only take learning so far nor can they be the foundation of the learning because they don't have a grasp on how everything fits together. The teacher provides the basics and the depth; what the third grader provides is experience, both for the kindergartener to practice themselves when interacting with the 3rd grader and to learn from watching and listening to the third grader.  When the child wants to learn more, looking to the teacher is what will move them past elementary life, give them a chance to expand into new ways of doing things rather than just learning to be good with what is already known.

And yes, I believe our teacher, God, has chosen the prophet to share what the teacher has taught him to the best of his ability as our official class tutor.  He is not to replace the teacher though, but to speak when Teacher tells him it is his turn.   Those who expect him to substitute for the teacher will find out they are not learning as well, including picking up some of the errors he hasn't learned he is wrong on yet.  However, a mix of paying close attention to Teacher and all those who Teacher chooses to help us, instruct us, will get us much farther than just insisting on one form of learning.

Great ananlogy!

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

Well maybe Mormons are right. God only has one true political point of view.  

I doubt He cares about the county council voting to permit an auto junk yard next to our subdivision, but I’ll check the conference talks to see what I need to do about them if they do.