Accuser of Joseph Bishop Files Suit

[clarkgoble]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

So if they have no new info (did they say anything about the second victim?), it all depends imo on what Wells says unless other victims come forward.

Honestly the one thing I'm surprised by is that more accusers haven't come forward if he was doing what was portrayed. This came off like an experienced predator suggesting many more victims. Not saying there is any significance to that - there are reasons not to come forward even if one was victimized. Still it's a bit surprising considering how high profile the case is.

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Iirc from the tape, Bishop allegedly confessed to Wells when Bishop was a mission president in Argentina and Wells was the area authority.  He oversaw Bishop's work.  

That's before the MTC time frame though, isn't it? (I could be wrong) The question is after or during the MTC. But again the details matter and I'm not sure Bishop or his son is a trustworthy source in that regard.

Edited April 6, 2018 by clarkgoble

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

I haven't watch the press conference yet, but everything reported so far by others was either on the tape or able to be found by google (the Weber State history Juliann reported on first here shortly after it broke, I came across the foreword by Wells the first day after it had been reported his books were pulled by DB and I looked them up on Amazon).

So if they have no new info (did they say anything about the second victim?), it all depends imo on what Wells says unless other victims come forward.

I think they did refer to the second victim, but did not elaborate.

I do highly recommend watching the interview as a lot of questions were answered for me.  Here's a link for it:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/04/05/woman-accusing-missionary-training-center-president-of-rape-stands-in-front-of-cameras-to-say-she-is-a-victim/

[Calm]

1 minute ago, clarkgoble said:

Honestly the one thing I'm surprised by is that more accusers haven't come forward if he was doing what was portrayed. This came off like an experienced predator suggesting many more victims. Not saying there is any significance to that - there are reasons not to come forward even if one was victimized. Still it's a bit surprising considering how high profile the case is.

Me too.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

I think they did refer to the second victim, but did not elaborate.

I do highly recommend watching the interview as a lot of questions were answered for me.  Here's a link for it:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/04/05/woman-accusing-missionary-training-center-president-of-rape-stands-in-front-of-cameras-to-say-she-is-a-victim/

Haven't had time...lots of interruptions and errands today.  Looks like my iPad is almost charged enough to do so, so as soon as caught up with the threads probably.

add-on:  hour later, finally caught up.  Wish me luck!

Edited April 6, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Honestly the one thing I'm surprised by is that more accusers haven't come forward if he was doing what was portrayed. This came off like an experienced predator suggesting many more victims. Not saying there is any significance to that - there are reasons not to come forward even if one was victimized. Still it's a bit surprising considering how high profile the case is.

That's before the MTC time frame though, isn't it? (I could be wrong) The question is after or during the MTC. But again the details matter and I'm not sure Bishop or his son is a trustworthy source in that regard.

Yes, Argentina MP and Weber State Pesident came before the MTC, but not sure what order.  Leaning towards Argentina first.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Duncan said:

"You put the balm on? Who told you to put the balm on? I didn’t tell you to put the balm on. Why’d you put the balm on? You haven’t even been to see the doctor. If your gonna put a balm on, let a doctor put a balm on."

I guess I screwed up!

You're D%*)(*  right you screwed up!!!!!!

I hate it when I have no clue what people are talking about.

There is always google thank goodness.

add-on:  this is what I get for having only seen perhaps a quarter of a Seinfeld episode.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Calm

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Iirc from the tape, Bishop allegedly confessed to Wells when Bishop was a mission president in Argentina and Wells was the area authority.  He oversaw Bishop's work.  Bishop calls it a confession and describes it as one.

Ok.  Thanks for more info on that.  It will be interesting to see what he will testify about if called as a witness.

[Duncan]

7 minutes ago, ALarson said:

They made a point in the press conference to talk some about Wells.  I think they said he'd be an important witness (I'd have to listen to make sure how they stated it).  The attorney held up Bishop's two books and pointed out how Wells had written in both of them (I think a positive review or comment on one of them...maybe the back cover?  And then Wells wrote the forward to his most recent book).

Was Wells one of Bishop's local leaders (ie. his Bishop or Stake President) when he allegedly confessed everything and Wells gave him a blessing?  If not, what are the confidentiality laws regarding this (if he was just a close friend and general church leader)?

I watched it as well, I think.....that Wells was the General Authority supervisor when Bishop was a MP in Argentina prior to his service as MTC Pres. Wells would be a key component for the the plaintiff to show that he knew all this bad stuff and presumably said nothing (in Wells defense, he would say he did tell someone so it would be off his back). What the chain of command was for Bishop I don't know, in terms of confessing all that stuff

[Calm]

10 hours ago, rpn said:

  It was (now-deceased) Carlos Asay who apparent was sent to investigation, and he didn't have a clergy/penitent relationship either, but he was Bishop's supervisor when Bishop was MTC president.

But Bishop stated he never talked to Elder Asay about any of it, so according to him there was no investigation.  Former Bishop Leavitt stated he never told Elder Asay contrary to Denson's claim it was reported and he talked to her.

Leavitt might be lying, seems like there might be a record of his contacting Elder Asay unless he knew him personally as he would have had to go through the Church system to contact him and while we had a computer in 85 (Macintosh), no email yet.  However, that letter might have been tossed or maybe in Church files somewhere, but it wasn't in the 26 boxes of Elder Asay's stuff that KUTV iirc went through.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Calm

[Duncan]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

But Bishop stated he never talked to Elder Asay about any of it, so according to him there was no investigation.  Former Bishop Leavitt stated he never told Elder Asay contrary to Denson's claim it was reported and he talked to her.

Leavitt might be lying, seems like there might be a record of his contacting Elder Asay unless he knew him personally as he would have had to go through the Church system to contact him and while we had a computer in 85 (Macintosh), no email yet.  However, that letter might have been tossed or maybe in Church files somewhere, but it wasn't in the 26 boxes of Elder Asay's stuff that KUTV iirc went through.

Wouldn't investigators, not KUTV, go through Elder Asay's stuff? I imagine that his family pitched all that stuff years ago! 

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Wouldn't investigators, not KUTV, go through Elder Asay's stuff? I imagine that his family pitched all that stuff years ago! 

Probably, but some news organization definitely went through it (the collection was donated to a university library, iirc) looking to see if they could find a record, I can't find it on KUTV's site so I am thinking it may have been the Arizona report I read as they were the most thorough that I saw, actually tried to get an interview with Bishop at his home.  I will see if I can find it later after I get a chance to watch the press conference.  I feel like I should be supporting my claims about what the transcript said, so I may do that first.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

 

10 hours ago, CV75 said:

I love these threads:

Rather play a detective as long as I could avoid the gory stuff...and the violence...and the sex stuff...and the hurting other people stuff.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Finally, Mckenna mentions that Bishop didn't ask her to expose her breasts it was another victim.

This is new info.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Calm

[juliann]

Quote

 

The lawsuit, filed by attorneys on behalf of McKenna Denson says: “This includes red flag sexual improprieties with a young woman while serving as a missionary in Argentina for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It also includes similar red flag sexual improprieties while serving in a bishopric in Florida.”

The suit also claims that while Bishop was president of Weber State University there were reports of, “Bishop acting inappropriately toward women and allegations of dishonesty and lack of integrity,” claims the suit.

 

   http://kutv.com/news/local/lawsuit-former-mtc-president-had-history-of-allegations

I don't know what "red flag" means but they do appear to have knowledge of something which would indicate that there are people telling tales. I haven't read the lawsuit but there is apparently more stuff in there. I find it hard to believe that he wasn't sexually harassing women along with the "acting inappropriately" at Weber, too. At that time, it was considered normal for men. I always recommend that anyone who isn't familiar with that era watch Mad Men. 

[Calm]

11 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

Today's news coverage of the story contains some other damaging details...

The suit claims, “Bishop met with Elder Robert E. Wells and disclosed to Elder Wells every indiscretion, sin, or other misdeed that had occurred up to that point in his life, including his sexual addiction and previous instances of sexual predation against women.”

Denson claims, Wells gave Bishop a blessing and following this disclosure to Wells, there is no indication that the Church took any action to investigate these possible crimes or investigate whether, under its own internal policies, Bishop would be subject to Church discipline. Any of these actions could have alerted Denson and other vulnerable women to Bishop’s dangerous propensities,” the suit claims.

 

I may have missed understood the timing from the transcript, I read one sentence as saying something happened while he was a mission president when he said it was long before his mission, but it seems pretty clear towards the end even if it is confused at the beginning.  

From the transcript:

Bishop:  "I don't know about I confessed all of my sins to Elder Wells when I was in the mission. But anyway, let me apologize."

OTOH, later he says:

Denson:  So did you, when you talked to Brother Wells and you repented, did you talk about this?

Bishop:  Yes.
Denton:  You talked about what you did with me and other women?

Bishop:  Yes.
Denson:  How many other women are there?

Bishop:  It's not that there's so many other women, it's just the two that were there, I remember one when Iwas in the Bishopric. 

---

Bishop:  - came in and she wanted a back rub. And I rubbed her back. And that got too much...frisky. that's all that ever happened with all, and with- ... I must have, you know that was hard on- too. 

Denson:  So did your wife know?

Bishop:  No.

Denson:  You were never called into a church council, church court, even after you confessed to Elder Wells, there was never a fellowship, nothing?

Bishop:  No Ihadn't confessed all those things before Elder Wells, but wanted to redo it. I struggled to make sure that everything was taken care of. 

---

Bisho:  Oh, I now understand. Thank you very much for your talk today 'cause I'm listening, and I'm hearing and seeing me, and it's painful. It really is, but you're right. I need to do those things that Ithought [inaudible 02:31:27]. When I confessed to Elder Wells in the mission field, do you know why that happened?

Denson:  Uh-uh (negative).
Bishop:  We had been doing so well, the baptisms. We went from 70 a month to double that, to double that, to double that.
Denson:  This is when you worked missionary [inaudible 02:31:44].

Bishop:  Mission President.
Denson:  Mission President, okay.
Bishop:  We went from 70 to over 400 baptisms a month.
Denson:  Wow. 

Bishop:  And in the middle of this, I had a sister missionary who was besieged with evil spirits. I've never experienced them before. Didn't know they existed, but they do.

Denson:  I know that.

Bishop:  They attacked me. So in this process trying to save my soul, I said, "Okay, well, I need to tell you everything." And Iwent back as far back as memory could ... I think Italked about you.

Denson:  You couldn't have 'cause you were MTC president after Argentina. 

-----

Bishop:  I've had blessings from Elder Wells, 

------

Another point of timeline:  

Bishop:  The sequence is, I was at Weber State, called to be mission president.

Denson:  Weber State, called to be mission president in Argentina....

Denson:  Went to Salt Lake, okay, after Argentina. Okay.

Bishop:  Received a call from President Hinckley one day, calling president of the MTC in Provo. 

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, juliann said:

   http://kutv.com/news/local/lawsuit-former-mtc-president-had-history-of-allegations

I don't know what "red flag" means but they do appear to have knowledge of something which would indicate that there are people telling tales. I haven't read the lawsuit but there is apparently more stuff in there. I find it hard to believe that he wasn't sexually harassing women along with the "acting inappropriately" at Weber, too. At that time, it was considered normal for men. I always recommend that anyone who isn't familiar with that era watch Mad Men. 

Florida and Argentina are mentioned in the transcript so I don't think it has to be anything else, might change my mind after the press conference watching.

From the transcript:

Denson:  Who talked to you about other women?

Bishop:  A bishop in Florida.
Denson:  And who was the woman?

Bishop:  She was a friend of ours, who ... she made a swimsuit that she wanted to show us, me and another guy. I don't remember. I'm trying to be very honest about this....

Denson:  Okay. What did you do with her?
Bishop:  She.. showed me her sun suit, which was revealing.

Denson:  Revealing her breasts, revealing ... everything?
Bishop:  No, no, a skimpy swimsuit.

Denson:  Why did she think it was okay to do that?

Bishop:  Because she... i don't know. She was ... into [inaudible 01:16:29]. I know you don't want to talk about [first wife's name], but part of the problem was there was no sex in our lives. 

---

Bishop:  Or oh I don't know, I have molested or tried to rape some of my missionaries.

Denson:  How many of the sisters in Argentina?

Bishop:  None.

---

Bishop:  When I was a young missionary, in Argentina, [inaudible 01:15:08], there was a lady. I went to the mission president, halfway confessed, didn't tell him all that happened, so you can't blame him for not [inaudible 01:15:30]. There was nothing .. when I was in Florida, there was this lady I just told you about. 

 

 

[Calm]

For those who just hit the Trib firewall like me (first time I think, maybe second, hard to keep track as hitting them all over these days) my apologies if already posted, I wasn't paying attention as I knew I would watch it later...meaning now:

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

Like the lawyer, got a nice air about him...he comes across as caring about her.

Polygraph test...yeah,too much drama on that given they are not reliable (did they give her a blood test for V-alium and other drugs that can reduce anxiety, probably not).

Vernon asking the Church to "consider" changes "if it makes sense to them"...it was a good way of approaching it.  I like it (the approach, not necessarily the suggestion as I think pounding away the hotline requirement rather than varied options depending on context is more effective and having a lawyer that may be the liaison or at least an advisor is very useful in my opinion with getting more info out there because the bishop would be less cautious in talking to the lawyer also bound by confidentiality rules while he might be reticent with police out of fear of crossing a line).

The "consensual immorality" stuff...don't like, see it as inappropriate. I don't find their interpretation or rather my interpretation of theirs to convey how the phrase was actually used, but instead present it as downplaying assault and rape, imo.

Nice touch with the 13 year old daughter's letter, very humanizing.  Read by a family friend.

Sound is annoying.  Picture taking Perhaps?  And that echoey hollowness reminds me why I hate watching this kind of stuff.

----

Denson's presentation:

I definitely don't agree that the story isn't about her or Bishop, but a high ranking church official and Church's response, etc.

Why would she want to remove the two major actors from the context, it depersonalizes it imo.  And it downplays the very real accountability of Bishop, making it sound like he is a victim himself of the Church.  Bad misstep for me.  She could have still talked about the general story of abuse, victims, etc.

-----

Told the story of the room and (alleged, my term only) rape well, didn't go into details she didn't know (what was on the VHS tapes), no gushing tears, no extreme terms.

Mentions her YSA bishop and (alleged) Asay interview, no explanation why he has denied arranging the Asay interview.  Hope this is addressed later. 

-----

I think I accidentally edited out a bunch...will redo it tomorrow if so.  Really annoyed and depressed about it, but not enough to go check it, lol, just in case I am wrong and don't have to suffer.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

Vernon introduces a rep of SNAP, encourages victims to use them as a resource

------

Question and answer session:  some may not be answered...

Q:  Greg Bishop accusing her of making false claims

A:  She states she has a criminal history, she owns that, she is embarrassed by it.  False facts, twisted facts that means they aren't true...go to the tape and listen to it.

More on the polygraph....bugs me

Jan Tyler is mentioned.  She talked about his character, she was courageous...etc.  No details about what Tyler said was shared.  Why not?

Q:  about the Church's hotline, Vernon directs question to Church what it does as he should

Q:  asking about settlement talks

A:  Vernon has not emailed the Church the complaint last night, has not heard from them today but also has not checked his email

Q:  satisfying policy changes?

A:  would like to see not having sexual explicit questions to children

Q:  where she stands now in the Church

A:  loves Gospel, has lots of good friends and admires the general membership, but to the Bishops and GAs who cover up...they are coming; Vernon:  lawsuit is not just justice for Denson, but also to make the Church safer, safer platform for victims...slammed the dossier collecting to keep silent or shame

Q:  lawyer is asked about the dossier

A:  he doesn't know how it got into the hands of the media (which is rather strange since everyone reported it as Greg Bishop); respects Jordan and Kirk McKonkie, Church has every right to do it, but should they have done it?

Q:  difficulty of establishing the Church is responsible for the conduct of an individual

A:  other lawyer is Jeff something....don't want to divulge strategy...look at history of the individual and higher and higher authority, like this guy as he uses "we allege" to refer to the interaction between church leaders and Bishop rather than stating it as a fact and as far as they can tell no action taken, so it will be not easy for the Church to wash their hands of him

A:  you heard the tape, he is not going to speak to the admissions...much more careful than Denson was, understandably so.

34 minutes into the press conference...burning out so will finish this tomorrow.  Let me know, Jeanne if you get new headphones and don't need it anymore.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Calm

[readstoomuch]

Craig Vernon is a former Mormon attorney in Coeur d’ Alene Idaho.  Born and raised in the Church.  Served a mission.  “Transitioned out” of the faith.  This firm lists a number of lawsuits of a Catholic Diosce, Boy Scout and other religious institutions about sexual abuse.  There is a video about him.  Two colleagues in the office are still active LDS.  One in Post Falls and the second in Spokane, Wa.  They hide it as much as they can and at times they leave BYU out of resumes.  He and other firms he has been with (Craig Vernon) practiced extensive litigation.  Bruce Owens is a former colleague from another firm that does basically only medical malpractice.  Bruce Owens was a bishop in Hayden Lake Idaho and is now inactive.  Bits and pieces of the larger Owens and Vernon families still belong to the Church.  The practice of law has taken a large number of these stalwart members into inactivity.  Start with Craig Zvernin’s website.

[Calm]

"They hide it as much as they can and at times they leave BYU out of resumes."

Being LDS?

"The practice of law has taken a large number of these stalwart members into inactivity."

You are not going to see people at their best usually in legal disputes.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Calm

[CV75]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

 

Rather play a detective as long as I could avoid the gory stuff...and the violence...and the sex stuff...and the hurting other people stuff.

Well, at least that leaves singing!

[ALarson]

7 hours ago, readstoomuch said:

Craig Vernon is a former Mormon attorney in Coeur d’ Alene Idaho.  Born and raised in the Church.  Served a mission.  “Transitioned out” of the faith.  This firm lists a number of lawsuits of a Catholic Diosce, Boy Scout and other religious institutions about sexual abuse.  There is a video about him.  Two colleagues in the office are still active LDS.  One in Post Falls and the second in Spokane, Wa.  They hide it as much as they can and at times they leave BYU out of resumes.  He and other firms he has been with (Craig Vernon) practiced extensive litigation.  Bruce Owens is a former colleague from another firm that does basically only medical malpractice.  Bruce Owens was a bishop in Hayden Lake Idaho and is now inactive.  Bits and pieces of the larger Owens and Vernon families still belong to the Church.  The practice of law has taken a large number of these stalwart members into inactivity.  Start with Craig Zvernin’s website.

Thanks for the additional information.

I was very impressed with Vernon (he spoke the most) and with the other attorney as well.  Vernon did not try to hide that he was a Mormon (he may have used the phrase "former Mormon", but he conveyed somehow that he was at one time active in the church).  He was open (as much as he could be) and was very well spoken.

Edited April 6, 2018 by ALarson

[USU78]

18 hours ago, juliann said:

At that time, it was considered normal for men. I always recommend that anyone who isn't familiar with that era watch Mad Men. 

Nonsense.  It was never okay, and no sane person would have believed it was okay.

My father, a "greatest generation" vet, wouldn't even put up any cheesecake pics in his locker/on the wall or engage in any "Bouncing Betty" type tagging of aircraft during the late war.

Mormon boys just didn't do that sort of thing in the '40s, '50s, '60s, or '70s.  Those that did were wrong, those that do are wrong.  It wasn't "normal" at all.

American Mormon manhood was more like Sessions than Trump. 

[Festus]

It would help her case if she could keep her story straight. She claims he penetrated and raped her, but in the interview she did with him in December, she said he didn't because he couldn't get an erection.

　

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/04/05/woman-sues-the-lds-church-for-what-she-says-was-abuse-by-missionary-training-center-president/

　

"The complaint says Bishop pushed her onto the bed, tore open her blouse and tore the seam of her skirt. After penetrating her, the lawsuit says, Denson was able to kick free and get to the door."

　

From the recording transcript at MormonLeaks:

　

Do you remember the movies in the basement? The DVD, the VHS player and the TV? No. Do you remember tearing my blouse, pulling up my skirt, ripping the back of my skirt and trying to rape me? But you didn't, because you didn't have a full erection. You don't remember that?

No. Let me tell you what I do remember.

Okay. Do you know who I am?

No. I don't. Are you, yeah I do. ......................