bluebell Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 2 hours ago, BillyandJane said: Right? I know, that's what was/is driving me a bit mad. He sure did not do a good job at all explaining why those girls would come to him pleading for his help because they weren't sealed. Then since I've asked this question, remarks made here and other talks and lessons I've read do point to the fact that being sealed to a spouse and to one's parents and kids is an absolute requirement for exaltation. Which, again, I've known that about marriage sealings, I am sealed, I've taught that. But again, it just never dawned on me to relate this doctrine to those who died before age 8, the age we believe they become accountable. Bruce C. Hafen of the 70 said this: "we must be sealed to a spouse in order to qualify for exaltation in the celestial kingdom because only a sealed couple can enjoy the continuation of seed promised by exaltation." So what to do with that? We have temple sealings being absolutely mandatory but the more I study them the more they just sound silly, for a lack of a better word. They aren't mentioned in the Bible, or the Book of Mormon and in just a few places in the D and C, and even those kind of contradict each other and current doctrine. Contrast this to orthodox Christianity, that of believing Jesus came and died to pay for our sins, and all who believe Him and accepting His free gift will go to Heaven. No waiting around hoping your name is found in someone's genealogy, then hoping someone actually submits it to the temple to be done. No confusing guesses on what happens to single people of all ages who were good people but just single. Or they were single because they died as a small child. No guessing on who will they be sealed to in the next life and how that will look. Will they get a choice of eternal mates or will they be assigned? Who will do their sealing seeing as they are dead and a mortal wouldn't know who they were wanting to be sealed to? If dead people can't do their own ordinance work, how about resurrected beings? How come they can't just do their own work after the resurrection? Why would God have mortals running around chasing down millions of names when He could just resurrect all the people, like He's going to anyway, and then let them decide on which ordinances, if any, they want to participate in? No confusing guesses on what it means to have a continuation of seed for ever and ever and ever. No confusing guesses on who then is a God to your forever seed, you as that seed's parent, or Elohim. No confusing guesses on what becomes of that seed: which world do they go to? Will they have a premortal existence story like we have, with Jesus and Satan both volunteering? If so will it be the same devil and the same Jesus? Or will there be new ones? If there doesn't have to be a new Satan and a new Jesus and they just get to go to a world will that world have had a 'fall'? So there are just countless worlds going through the exact same procedure ie., premortal organization, creation, Adam falling, mortals being born, mortals dying, righteous sealed mortals being exalted to have the right to organize even more intelligences into spirit babies, and on and on. It sounds convoluted. It sounds half-baked. I pull one little string of thought and follow it out a little and it just all seems ridiculous, really. And I'm not trying to discount what I know are people's most sacred of beliefs. I'm just finding it really hard to accept in light of small children not being fully redeemed, which then puts into question the very power and majesty and love and sacrifice our Savior made for us. I don't want to live the rest of my life feeling or believing that His sacrifice wasn't enough. Ooh, sorry bluebell. I didn't mean to dump on you. Those are all the thoughts that have been floating in my head over the past week and they all just came out. No worries.
Tacenda Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 3 hours ago, BillyandJane said: Right? I know, that's what was/is driving me a bit mad. He sure did not do a good job at all explaining why those girls would come to him pleading for his help because they weren't sealed. Then since I've asked this question, remarks made here and other talks and lessons I've read do point to the fact that being sealed to a spouse and to one's parents and kids is an absolute requirement for exaltation. Which, again, I've known that about marriage sealings, I am sealed, I've taught that. But again, it just never dawned on me to relate this doctrine to those who died before age 8, the age we believe they become accountable. Bruce C. Hafen of the 70 said this: "we must be sealed to a spouse in order to qualify for exaltation in the celestial kingdom because only a sealed couple can enjoy the continuation of seed promised by exaltation." So what to do with that? We have temple sealings being absolutely mandatory but the more I study them the more they just sound silly, for a lack of a better word. They aren't mentioned in the Bible, or the Book of Mormon and in just a few places in the D and C, and even those kind of contradict each other and current doctrine. Contrast this to orthodox Christianity, that of believing Jesus came and died to pay for our sins, and all who believe Him and accepting His free gift will go to Heaven. No waiting around hoping your name is found in someone's genealogy, then hoping someone actually submits it to the temple to be done. No confusing guesses on what happens to single people of all ages who were good people but just single. Or they were single because they died as a small child. No guessing on who will they be sealed to in the next life and how that will look. Will they get a choice of eternal mates or will they be assigned? Who will do their sealing seeing as they are dead and a mortal wouldn't know who they were wanting to be sealed to? If dead people can't do their own ordinance work, how about resurrected beings? How come they can't just do their own work after the resurrection? Why would God have mortals running around chasing down millions of names when He could just resurrect all the people, like He's going to anyway, and then let them decide on which ordinances, if any, they want to participate in? No confusing guesses on what it means to have a continuation of seed for ever and ever and ever. No confusing guesses on who then is a God to your forever seed, you as that seed's parent, or Elohim. No confusing guesses on what becomes of that seed: which world do they go to? Will they have a premortal existence story like we have, with Jesus and Satan both volunteering? If so will it be the same devil and the same Jesus? Or will there be new ones? If there doesn't have to be a new Satan and a new Jesus and they just get to go to a world will that world have had a 'fall'? So there are just countless worlds going through the exact same procedure ie., premortal organization, creation, Adam falling, mortals being born, mortals dying, righteous sealed mortals being exalted to have the right to organize even more intelligences into spirit babies, and on and on. It sounds convoluted. It sounds half-baked. I pull one little string of thought and follow it out a little and it just all seems ridiculous, really. And I'm not trying to discount what I know are people's most sacred of beliefs. I'm just finding it really hard to accept in light of small children not being fully redeemed, which then puts into question the very power and majesty and love and sacrifice our Savior made for us. I don't want to live the rest of my life feeling or believing that His sacrifice wasn't enough. Ooh, sorry bluebell. I didn't mean to dump on you. Those are all the thoughts that have been floating in my head over the past week and they all just came out. I agree with you, I can see many unhappy people out there that probably think they won't be with their loved ones, or they won't live with God because they didn't go to the temple etc. The list is endless and so unnecessary.
Jeanne Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 On 3/20/2018 at 4:50 PM, Tacenda said: I agree with you, I can see many unhappy people out there that probably think they won't be with their loved ones, or they won't live with God because they didn't go to the temple etc. The list is endless and so unnecessary. Fortunate for me..with great hope..I don't believe that. I believe if I can live a good life that I will be able to be with my loved ones again. It is only the LDS that tell me not to count on this..but my love for family, friends and faith in God and His Son..I feel that I will have my family with me.
Stargazer Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 (edited) On 3/20/2018 at 7:21 PM, BillyandJane said: Right? I know, that's what was/is driving me a bit mad. He sure did not do a good job at all explaining why those girls would come to him pleading for his help because they weren't sealed. Then since I've asked this question, remarks made here and other talks and lessons I've read do point to the fact that being sealed to a spouse and to one's parents and kids is an absolute requirement for exaltation. Which, again, I've known that about marriage sealings, I am sealed, I've taught that. But again, it just never dawned on me to relate this doctrine to those who died before age 8, the age we believe they become accountable. Bruce C. Hafen of the 70 said this: "we must be sealed to a spouse in order to qualify for exaltation in the celestial kingdom because only a sealed couple can enjoy the continuation of seed promised by exaltation." So what to do with that? We have temple sealings being absolutely mandatory but the more I study them the more they just sound silly, for a lack of a better word. They aren't mentioned in the Bible, or the Book of Mormon and in just a few places in the D and C, and even those kind of contradict each other and current doctrine. Contrast this to orthodox Christianity, that of believing Jesus came and died to pay for our sins, and all who believe Him and accepting His free gift will go to Heaven. No waiting around hoping your name is found in someone's genealogy, then hoping someone actually submits it to the temple to be done. No confusing guesses on what happens to single people of all ages who were good people but just single. Or they were single because they died as a small child. No guessing on who will they be sealed to in the next life and how that will look. Will they get a choice of eternal mates or will they be assigned? Who will do their sealing seeing as they are dead and a mortal wouldn't know who they were wanting to be sealed to? If dead people can't do their own ordinance work, how about resurrected beings? How come they can't just do their own work after the resurrection? Why would God have mortals running around chasing down millions of names when He could just resurrect all the people, like He's going to anyway, and then let them decide on which ordinances, if any, they want to participate in? No confusing guesses on what it means to have a continuation of seed for ever and ever and ever. No confusing guesses on who then is a God to your forever seed, you as that seed's parent, or Elohim. No confusing guesses on what becomes of that seed: which world do they go to? Will they have a premortal existence story like we have, with Jesus and Satan both volunteering? If so will it be the same devil and the same Jesus? Or will there be new ones? If there doesn't have to be a new Satan and a new Jesus and they just get to go to a world will that world have had a 'fall'? So there are just countless worlds going through the exact same procedure ie., premortal organization, creation, Adam falling, mortals being born, mortals dying, righteous sealed mortals being exalted to have the right to organize even more intelligences into spirit babies, and on and on. It sounds convoluted. It sounds half-baked. I pull one little string of thought and follow it out a little and it just all seems ridiculous, really. And I'm not trying to discount what I know are people's most sacred of beliefs. I'm just finding it really hard to accept in light of small children not being fully redeemed, which then puts into question the very power and majesty and love and sacrifice our Savior made for us. I don't want to live the rest of my life feeling or believing that His sacrifice wasn't enough. Ooh, sorry bluebell. I didn't mean to dump on you. Those are all the thoughts that have been floating in my head over the past week and they all just came out. Trying to address all this has just about driven ME mad! You have so many questions and misunderstandings in all this that it is very difficult to try to answer it all. First of all, Holy Cow! This is the largest misunderstanding of all: "I'm just finding it really hard to accept in light of small children not being fully redeemed, which then puts into question the very power and majesty and love and sacrifice our Savior made for us. I don't want to live the rest of my life feeling or believing that His sacrifice wasn't enough." The fact that those little children were allowed to come to President Nelson to plead their case for being sealed to parents does not at all mean that they aren't fully redeemed. I thought the Book of Mormon made that very plain. Christ's atonement redeems little children from the Fall, without the need of baptism, and places them on the same footing as the rest of us who did not die before the age of accountability, and who had to repent of our sins, be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost, and continue in righteousness until the end. They are fully redeemed from the Fall. But salvation from sin is only the first step. You mention how the "orthodox" Christians have such a simple and uncomplicated belief that if they believe in Christ they're going to Heaven. What's ridiculous about that is that they have no idea what that means. Nor do they have any inkling of what's to happen to all those billions of people (the vast majority of every human born on this earth) who never so much as heard about Jesus, let alone have a chance to believe in Him. Those people are clearly going to Hell, right? Because there's only the two places, one incredibly bad where you suffer unbearably forever, and were placed there by the most just and merciful being in the Universe, and Him knowing you'd never have a chance to believe in Jesus, because you weren't alive to hear about him, and God knew it all along. Oh, yes, that's justice and mercy all right. And the other is populated by a small, select group, whose only claim on righteousness is the mere chance of living at one of the few times and the few places where knowledge of Jesus was available, and who managed to say, with their mouths, "I accept Jesus as my savior". I don't mean to be mean and nasty, but that is a horrifying belief. I think I like the one we have much better. You know, the one that says that if you didn't hear about Jesus in this life, you'll have a chance to hear about Him and accept Him in the next. And the one that says that yes, baptism is required for salvation, but if you missed out on it due to no fault of your own, you'll be covered because someone will be baptized in your name. You question the matter of sealings because "orthodox" Christians don't believe in them, and it isn't in the Bible. But it is! Have a look at Malachi 4:5,6. Most people think that's talking about genealogy, and of course that's part of it, but WHY is that so important that if it gets neglected the Lord would smite the earth with a curse? 5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. If sealings were not necessary, then there'd be no reason to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers. Why bother? What would be the point? If you're wondering what about all the people whose names are unknown to us because records have been lost, or in far away days no record of them was ever made, well, that's what the Millennium is for. We're expected to do all we can do now, finding all our ancestors first of all (to satisfy the commandment of Malachi 4:5-6), and have their work done for them (conditional on their accepting it), but ultimately we're expected to do the work for ALL of them -- because it needs to be done. In the Millennium, however, the records made in Heaven will be opened up to us, and the work will proceed in the Temples as those names are revealed. Some LDS and even non-LDS feel that they don't need sealing to be with their loved ones after this life. And they are perfectly correct! If you are in the Terrestrial Kingdom, you can visit anyone at all you want to visit who are either in the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom. Not being sealed to them doesn't mean you're shut off from them. But there is clearly something special about the sealing ordinance. We haven't been told everything about it. But we've been told it's important. And that is exactly why those two little girls were given permission to visit President Nelson about their sealing. He didn't need to give the matter a lot of "air time" -- he could have done it entirely privately and never mentioned it in public. In fact, it needn't have happened at all -- the girls could just as well have waited until their work was done, in due time -- it was probably not a critical matter, since time itself is not the same for Heavenly Father as it is for us. President Nelson doesn't confide in me (nor does he know I exist), but I feel strongly that the reason this matter was publicized, why these little girls were given permission to seek him out, was because the Lord wanted His people to know that the matter of sealings is IMPORTANT. Apparently, we need reminding. ---------------------- BY THE WAY: we shouldn't be belaboring this topic here. Not to be a board nanny, but this is the Social Hall. It's just for convivial sociality, not discussion of doctrine. Perhaps it could be raised in General Discussions -- more people would be likely to respond. I realize that you, Billy and Jane, don't yet have enough posts under your belt to post anywhere but here, but if you like, bluebell or I could post your OP where it will get seen more. Up to you... Edited March 23, 2018 by Stargazer
BillyandJane Posted March 28, 2018 Author Posted March 28, 2018 On 3/23/2018 at 2:30 PM, Stargazer said: BY THE WAY: we shouldn't be belaboring this topic here. Not to be a board nanny, but this is the Social Hall. It's just for convivial sociality, not discussion of doctrine. Perhaps it could be raised in General Discussions -- more people would be likely to respond. I realize that you, Billy and Jane, don't yet have enough posts under your belt to post anywhere but here, but if you like, bluebell or I could post your OP where it will get seen more. Up to you... thanks for taking the time to write all of this. I'm just now reading it, but as I ponder it I just wanted to address this 'social hall' comment. I did try to post in general discussion but this is the only forum it would let me start a new topic. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious and if you could point it out to me so that i can post there in the future I'd appreciate it.
Calm Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) 25 posts gives you the ability to post threads anywhere and to edit. You have 6 more to go. Edited March 29, 2018 by Calm
BillyandJane Posted March 29, 2018 Author Posted March 29, 2018 On 3/23/2018 at 2:30 PM, Stargazer said: Trying to address all this has just about driven ME mad! LOL! Sorry. So I've been sitting here reading, re-reading, and re-reading again, your words, and I might finally (FINALLY! ;)) understand what you're saying. True or false: little children being redeemed means that they are redeemed from the fall of Adam, but that does not mean they necessarily receive the highest level of Celestial Kingdom, aka, exaltation? The redemption brings the 'little children' up to the level of baptism and from there they are to wait and learn while waiting for their temple ordinances to be done, right? This is something I have never considered. It wasn't explained to me this way. I understood little children being redeemed meant FULLY redeemed, CK bound and all that. Studying all of this D&C 137 is what I think led me to my conclusion v7: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God. To me Celestial Kingdom meant exaltation, and therein lies my error. I really appreciate you spending your time replying! Thanks, sincerely! On 3/23/2018 at 2:30 PM, Stargazer said:
BillyandJane Posted March 29, 2018 Author Posted March 29, 2018 2 hours ago, Calm said: 25 posts gives you the ability to post threads anywhere and to edit. You have 6 more to go. Oh hey! See, it is simple. Thanks for letting me know!
Garden Girl Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) On 3/28/2018 at 7:05 PM, BillyandJane said: LOL! Sorry. So I've been sitting here reading, re-reading, and re-reading again, your words, and I might finally (FINALLY! ;)) understand what you're saying. True or false: little children being redeemed means that they are redeemed from the fall of Adam, but that does not mean they necessarily receive the highest level of Celestial Kingdom, aka, exaltation? The redemption brings the 'little children' up to the level of baptism and from there they are to wait and learn while waiting for their temple ordinances to be done, right? This is something I have never considered. It wasn't explained to me this way. I understood little children being redeemed meant FULLY redeemed, CK bound and all that. Studying all of this D&C 137 is what I think led me to my conclusion v7: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God. To me Celestial Kingdom meant exaltation, and therein lies my error. I really appreciate you spending your time replying! Thanks, sincerely! Your sentence I bolded is correct... And I agree with Stargazer... there is a lot of misunderstanding in some of the above posts that it's almost too much to even try to address... particularly on this type of Board. It takes study and prayer... in the Spirit World, all those spirits who had never heard of Christ, or even heard and fully understood his gospel, are being taught in the Spirit World so that they might be judged as men in the flesh but live according to God in the Spirit...(1 Peter 4:6). And, what about all those who through no fault of their own did not marry in mortality... Elder Ballard of the QofT during Women's Conf one year, assured such women that if they lived faithful, righteous, Christ centered lives, they would be given every blessing of heaven. His talk was subsequently published, titled "As Women of God." I'm sure this would apply to men also... And Stargazer has already mentioned the great work of the Millennium will be the work of temples and ordinances prior to our final judgment... and, we will have our agency to accept or reject ordinances performed... I am sealed to my non-LDS husband, whose ordinances have now been performed, including our sealing, and there is no doubt in my mind that he waits for me... or that we will be with loved ones. GG Edited March 31, 2018 by Garden Girl
Stargazer Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 On 29/03/2018 at 3:05 AM, BillyandJane said: LOL! Sorry. So I've been sitting here reading, re-reading, and re-reading again, your words, and I might finally (FINALLY! ;)) understand what you're saying. Not that I am the world's greatest gospel scholar, but I'm quite certain about the first part, as it is very clearly laid out in the scriptures. . On 29/03/2018 at 3:05 AM, BillyandJane said: True or false: little children being redeemed means that they are redeemed from the fall of Adam, but that does not mean they necessarily receive the highest level of Celestial Kingdom, aka, exaltation? The redemption brings the 'little children' up to the level of baptism and from there they are to wait and learn while waiting for their temple ordinances to be done, right? This is something I have never considered. It wasn't explained to me this way. I understood little children being redeemed meant FULLY redeemed, CK bound and all that. As for exaltation, I'm not certain about that. It may be so, that they had proven themselves in the preexistence beyond the need to prove any more, and exaltation is theirs. I don't see anything in the scriptures that says anything one way or another. And it may be that things are very personalized, and "it depends". On 29/03/2018 at 3:05 AM, BillyandJane said: Studying all of this D&C 137 is what I think led me to my conclusion v7: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God. To me Celestial Kingdom meant exaltation, and therein lies my error. I really appreciate you spending your time replying! Thanks, sincerely! It might be useful to read in DC 131. In verses 1-4 it definitely confirms what you say about the CK being not necessarily exaltation... 1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; 2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; 3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. 4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase. Unless being in the CK is, by definition, exaltation! In either case, though I do not know if exaltation comprises only the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, but even if so, obtaining "only" the lowest or the middle degree of the CK is surely a reward for which no human words are adequate. I have pondered often upon these things, and though I don't claim any special knowledge, I trust that our Father is a just God, and no-one, from the depths of Outer Darkness to the heights of the first degree of the CK, will receive anything other than a perfect reward. So will the children who die in infancy be redeemed to exaltation? I do not know, but I trust Him to do what is right. I can imagine, for example, that there could have been some who freely chose not to enter into the new and everlasting covenant, and are perfectly ecstatic to gain the other degrees of the CK. I have run into LDS who claim that they will be satisfied with the Terrestrial Kingdom, so why not some who would genuinely be satisfied with the lower degrees of the CK? This is very speculatory, however. You're welcome to the time spent replying! I love the Gospel, I love Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for us, and I am glad to take any opportunity to try to explain these precious truths -- although I caution you that I sometimes include a little Gospel according Stargazer.
Recommended Posts