Jump to content

Sealings


Recommended Posts

So I just became aware of President Nelson's 2016 talk (I don't know where I've been.  Busy with 6 kids that's where ;)) wherein he speaks of the 2 little girls, sisters, who had died from a congenital heart defect, that appeared to him and asked for his help because they weren't sealed to anyone.  It ends with Pres. Nelson sealing them to their still alive father.  The question that arose for me from hearing this 2 days ago is this: is being sealed to someone necessary to gain exaltation?  Not sealed to a spouse but just sealed to someone, anyone?  

Link to comment
11 minutes ago, BillyandJane said:

So I just became aware of President Nelson's 2016 talk (I don't know where I've been.  Busy with 6 kids that's where ;)) wherein he speaks of the 2 little girls, sisters, who had died from a congenital heart defect, that appeared to him and asked for his help because they weren't sealed to anyone.  It ends with Pres. Nelson sealing them to their still alive father.  The question that arose for me from hearing this 2 days ago is this: is being sealed to someone necessary to gain exaltation?  Not sealed to a spouse but just sealed to someone, anyone?  

Welcome to the board.

I think this link has some really good insights into why being sealed to parents, and not just spouse, is a part of exaltation.

Why must we be sealed to our families?

Link to comment

Again I thank you for the article.  I suppose my question from Pres. Nelson's talk is that he made me wonder about salvation and the atonement with his story.  The 2 girls he mentions both died before they were 8 and thereby are redeemed through the atonement of Jesus Christ because they were not yet accountable.  But he has them coming to him in his dream asking for his help because they weren't sealed to anyone.  This made me wonder if they were being denied certain rights and privileges in the hereafter because they weren't sealed?  If this is what Pres. Nelson was inferring then can we take from this that even people who die before the age of accountability are still not fully redeemed through the atonement because they first have to be sealed, which can only be done by mortals, to receive a full exaltation?  Am I making any sense?  I don't know why his talk just confused the heck out of me. I had just never thought about the contingency he presented. 

Anyone have any insight?  

Link to comment
1 hour ago, BillyandJane said:

Again I thank you for the article.  I suppose my question from Pres. Nelson's talk is that he made me wonder about salvation and the atonement with his story.  The 2 girls he mentions both died before they were 8 and thereby are redeemed through the atonement of Jesus Christ because they were not yet accountable.  But he has them coming to him in his dream asking for his help because they weren't sealed to anyone.  This made me wonder if they were being denied certain rights and privileges in the hereafter because they weren't sealed?  If this is what Pres. Nelson was inferring then can we take from this that even people who die before the age of accountability are still not fully redeemed through the atonement because they first have to be sealed, which can only be done by mortals, to receive a full exaltation?  Am I making any sense?  I don't know why his talk just confused the heck out of me. I had just never thought about the contingency he presented. 

Anyone have any insight?  

So you have a link to the talk?

I would think that he's not saying that, but i think i'd want to read the talk before trying to figure that out. :)

Link to comment

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/04/the-price-of-priesthood-power?lang=eng

"Over time, I learned that they harbored lingering resentment toward me and the Church. For almost six decades, I have been haunted by this situation and have grieved for the Hatfields. I tried several times to establish contact with them, without success.

Then one night last May, I was awakened by those two little girls from the other side of the veil. Though I did not see or hear them with my physical senses, I felt their presence. Spiritually, I heard their pleadings. Their message was brief and clear: “Brother Nelson, we are not sealed to anyone! Can you help us?” Soon thereafter, I learned that their mother had passed away, but their father and younger brother were still alive.

Emboldened by the pleadings of Laural Ann and Gay Lynn, I tried again to contact their father, who I learned was living with his son Shawn. This time they were willing to meet with me.

In June, I literally knelt in front of Jimmy, now 88 years old, and had a heart-to-heart talk with him. I spoke of his daughters’ pleadings and told him I would be honored to perform sealing ordinances for his family. I also explained that it would take time and much effort on his and Shawn’s part to be ready and worthy to enter the temple, as neither of them had ever been endowed.

The Spirit of the Lord was palpable throughout that meeting. And when Jimmy and Shawn each accepted my offer, I was overjoyed! They worked diligently with their stake president, bishop, home teachers, and ward mission leader, as well as with young missionaries and a senior missionary couple. And then, not long ago, in the Payson Utah Temple, I had the profound privilege of sealing Ruth to Jimmy and their four children to them. Wendy and I wept as we participated in that sublime experience. Many hearts were healed that day!"

Link to comment

President Joseph F. Smith said that “There has got to be a welding together and a joining together of parents and children and children and parents until the whole chain of God’s family shall be welded together into one chain, and they shall all become the family of God and His Christ.”  Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith (2011), 411; D&C 128:18.

Link to comment
4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

President Joseph F. Smith said that “There has got to be a welding together and a joining together of parents and children and children and parents until the whole chain of God’s family shall be welded together into one chain, and they shall all become the family of God and His Christ.”  Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith (2011), 411; D&C 128:18.

Yes, I've read this quote many times, and took it to mean what it means.  But again, the circumstances Pres. Nelson laid out just made me wonder, for the first time, if exaltation is out of the reach of the Savior's redemption,  even for those who died before 8 years old whom we teach don't need baptism: "Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy. 20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption."  Wouldn't requiring little children to be sealed so as to inherit eternal life and exaltation run along the same lines of  the "awful wickedness" Mormon spoke of in regards to requiring baptism?   Am I just way over thinking this?  LOL.  Probably. :)

Link to comment

Little children are redeemed from the fall and are eligible to enter the Celestial kingdom, but at what level? If they want to progress they have to be married and sealed. That has nothing to with righteousness but further covenants. Baptism is needed for salvation but is not a guarantee for exaltation.

Link to comment
46 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Little children are redeemed from the fall and are eligible to enter the Celestial kingdom, but at what level? If they want to progress they have to be married and sealed. That has nothing to with righteousness but further covenants. Baptism is needed for salvation but is not a guarantee for exaltation.

Thank you for replying.  I really appreciate your insight.  So degrees of salvation are:  salvation from the grave (universal), salvation from the telestial and the terrestrial kingdoms (believing and baptized members) and then salvation from the lower 2 kingdoms of the Celestial kingdom (believing, baptized, and sealed to a spouse, one's kids, and one's parents)?  Is all of that right?  

 

And while I have you here, would you mind telling me what 'progress' means to you?  I've never been sure about this phrase and how it pertains to eternal life.  I really do try not to think of eternity because it hurts my brain, lol, but again, hearing this Pres. Nelson talk this week shot my brain off on a thousand different thoughts. Thanks! :)

Link to comment
16 hours ago, Calm said:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/04/the-price-of-priesthood-power?lang=eng

"Over time, I learned that they harbored lingering resentment toward me and the Church. For almost six decades, I have been haunted by this situation and have grieved for the Hatfields. I tried several times to establish contact with them, without success.

Then one night last May, I was awakened by those two little girls from the other side of the veil. Though I did not see or hear them with my physical senses, I felt their presence. Spiritually, I heard their pleadings. Their message was brief and clear: “Brother Nelson, we are not sealed to anyone! Can you help us?” Soon thereafter, I learned that their mother had passed away, but their father and younger brother were still alive.

Emboldened by the pleadings of Laural Ann and Gay Lynn, I tried again to contact their father, who I learned was living with his son Shawn. This time they were willing to meet with me.

In June, I literally knelt in front of Jimmy, now 88 years old, and had a heart-to-heart talk with him. I spoke of his daughters’ pleadings and told him I would be honored to perform sealing ordinances for his family. I also explained that it would take time and much effort on his and Shawn’s part to be ready and worthy to enter the temple, as neither of them had ever been endowed.

The Spirit of the Lord was palpable throughout that meeting. And when Jimmy and Shawn each accepted my offer, I was overjoyed! They worked diligently with their stake president, bishop, home teachers, and ward mission leader, as well as with young missionaries and a senior missionary couple. And then, not long ago, in the Payson Utah Temple, I had the profound privilege of sealing Ruth to Jimmy and their four children to them. Wendy and I wept as we participated in that sublime experience. Many hearts were healed that day!"

Cool story.  I'm not sure exactly what he meant by the idea that the girls needed help because they were not sealed to anyone.  Sorry!

Link to comment
50 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

In essence, but I would quibble with the use of the word ' salvation ' when applied to all levels . In my mind one is saved from physical    and spiritual death by the resurrection and the atonement. After that it is levels of exaltation.

Ooh, I love the word quibble. :) When you think of the doctrine surrounding the world exaltation, there is only one exaltation, right?  That is to live with God and Jesus again in the highest level of the CK. Everything under that would just be levels of salvation, wouldn't you say?  Because anything short of actually living with God the Father, is to one degree or another, spiritual death.  So if we carry that a step further, then Jesus' atonement is in fact lacking in it's power and ability to exalt us, because in order for us to be exalted we must be sealed to our immediate families.  In order to be sealed we must physically go to a temple and get the work done, or if we are dead then we must wait for mortals to bring our names through and do the work for us.  So truly we can't be exalted, we can't live with God the Father for all eternity, without members of the church completing the work that Jesus began but, for whatever reason, could not finish.  Ohh, my brain is kind of exploding.  My logic can't be right, right.  We believe Jesus is fully capable of exalting us right?  What's the atonement for if it's insufficient to bring us to God?  If it was just to raise us from the dead but then not deliver us to our Maker, then why raise us from the dead?  If it was just to allow us the ability to be forgiven from our sins but still not bring us to God in our repentant state, then why repent?  If our exaltation is dependent upon other mortals behaving in a certain way and hoping they do the necessary temple work so we can be exalted, then wouldn't we as mere humans, be more likely to give praise to those who completed our exaltation than we are to the One who brought us half way but then couldn't bring us any further?  Why have I never thought about this before?  Seriously, mind is swirling.  And sitting here, a little gobsmacked, I realize this takes the power, the majesty, the great and tender love the scriptures tells us God has for us and diminishes it.  Aren't we told Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith?  Waiting for someone to seal us to someone makes it sound like the temple patron is the finisher of our faith, no?  I feel like a dam just burst in my head.  

Link to comment

Is the Holy Ghost God ( part of the Godhead) ? If so then the individual in the Telestial Kingdom is in the presence of God. Similarly with all the Kingdoms. According to Alma a person upon death will be brought back to his creator. Is that not returning to God? I wouldn't get too hung up on time frames. Joseph explained that we all progress step by step over what could be millennia , before we reach a level of complete unity with the Divine. Our salvation always " waits " on  something or someone. Everyone who died before Christ had to wait for the resurrection. The people who lived and died in sin before the flood had to wait for the spreading of the gospel . I trust God to find all the workers needed to the proxy work for everyone who has lived that desires it. The only one who will decide how far and how fast we progress will be the individual and his/her desire to conform to the requirements as outlined by God. The old saying applies, " you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. " God wants us all to return to Him. Will He force us to ? NO!  He provides the way, we choose.

Edited by strappinglad
Link to comment
On 3/17/2018 at 12:12 PM, BillyandJane said:

Ooh, I love the word quibble. :) When you think of the doctrine surrounding the world exaltation, there is only one exaltation, right?  That is to live with God and Jesus again in the highest level of the CK. Everything under that would just be levels of salvation, wouldn't you say?  Because anything short of actually living with God the Father, is to one degree or another, spiritual death.  So if we carry that a step further, then Jesus' atonement is in fact lacking in it's power and ability to exalt us, because in order for us to be exalted we must be sealed to our immediate families.  In order to be sealed we must physically go to a temple and get the work done, or if we are dead then we must wait for mortals to bring our names through and do the work for us.  So truly we can't be exalted, we can't live with God the Father for all eternity, without members of the church completing the work that Jesus began but, for whatever reason, could not finish.  Ohh, my brain is kind of exploding.  My logic can't be right, right.  We believe Jesus is fully capable of exalting us right?  What's the atonement for if it's insufficient to bring us to God?  If it was just to raise us from the dead but then not deliver us to our Maker, then why raise us from the dead?  If it was just to allow us the ability to be forgiven from our sins but still not bring us to God in our repentant state, then why repent?  If our exaltation is dependent upon other mortals behaving in a certain way and hoping they do the necessary temple work so we can be exalted, then wouldn't we as mere humans, be more likely to give praise to those who completed our exaltation than we are to the One who brought us half way but then couldn't bring us any further?  Why have I never thought about this before?  Seriously, mind is swirling.  And sitting here, a little gobsmacked, I realize this takes the power, the majesty, the great and tender love the scriptures tells us God has for us and diminishes it.  Aren't we told Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith?  Waiting for someone to seal us to someone makes it sound like the temple patron is the finisher of our faith, no?  I feel like a dam just burst in my head.  

I hear and feel your pain. I'm past feeling that without my having a current TR that I won't live with God. It's the teachings that we must be sealed in the temple and keep our covenants that to me seem to separate families rather than keep them together. The majority of the time, not all, family members are not all on the same level as far as belief in the LDS church. So it feels like the church's teachings seem to tear families apart in the hereafter vs. keeping them together. If we were like most other faiths, we'd believe we will be together and believe it's because of the atonement. 

But in the LDS faith, I guess it's members become Saviors as well, and that always bothered me too. I remember a lesson in RS that we are to be Saviors on the mount. https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-41?lang=eng

 

Link to comment

"If we were like most other faiths, we'd believe we will be together and believe it's because of the atonement."

CFR please, what faiths do you see as believing all of the families will not only be together no matter what, but as families?

Edited by Calm
Link to comment
7 hours ago, Calm said:

"If we were like most other faiths, we'd believe we will be together and believe it's because of the atonement."

CFR please, what faiths do you see as believing all of the families will not only be together no matter what, but as families?

What I gather from other Christians is they believe that in the here after the emotions and feelings and memories of their friends and family will rise with them and they will rejoice with them.  I think, and anyone can feel free to correct me, is that the object of a Christian's life is walk with Jesus in this life, being an example of the believers, helping and loving his brothers.  They believe upon death, being Christian they will go to heaven and be with Jesus forever more with their loved ones, to be singing endless praises to Him who saved them.  

What's your take on the family being forever?  What does that look like to you?  Is it a point of theology you take comfort in?

Link to comment
1 hour ago, BillyandJane said:

What I gather from other Christians is they believe that in the here after the emotions and feelings and memories of their friends and family will rise with them and they will rejoice with them.  I think, and anyone can feel free to correct me, is that the object of a Christian's life is walk with Jesus in this life, being an example of the believers, helping and loving his brothers.  They believe upon death, being Christian they will go to heaven and be with Jesus forever more with their loved ones, to be singing endless praises to Him who saved them.  

What's your take on the family being forever?  What does that look like to you?  Is it a point of theology you take comfort in?

ditto

Link to comment
1 hour ago, BillyandJane said:

What I gather from other Christians is they believe that in the here after the emotions and feelings and memories of their friends and family will rise with them and they will rejoice with them.  I think, and anyone can feel free to correct me, is that the object of a Christian's life is walk with Jesus in this life, being an example of the believers, helping and loving his brothers.  They believe upon death, being Christian they will go to heaven and be with Jesus forever more with their loved ones, to be singing endless praises to Him who saved them.  

Those who are saved I agree this is the most likely, those who are not are usually are seen as burning in hell forever.  One devout, wonderful and loving Christian I knew believe his child who had died shortly after birth was likely to be in eternal hell.  He wasn't happy about it, obviously.  I have run into a number of Christians who believe the family and friends who are Mormons, Muslims, atheists, nonChristians, and some even the Jews and Catholics as well as many who claim to be Christian but believe differently than they do will be burning in hell forever.  One expressed it as he rather his daughter had been raped by the young man instead of baptized.

Edited by Calm
Link to comment
4 hours ago, Calm said:

Those who are saved I agree this is the most likely, those who are not are usually are seen as burning in hell forever.  One devout, wonderful and loving Christian I knew believe his child who had died shortly after birth was likely to be in eternal hell.  He wasn't happy about it, obviously.  I have run into a number of Christians who believe the family and friends who are Mormons, Muslims, atheists, nonChristians, and some even the Jews and Catholics as well as many who claim to be Christian but believe differently than they do will be burning in hell forever.  One expressed it as he rather his daughter had been raped by the young man instead of baptized.

This is just sad all around, right?  I can't believe in a God who will eternally punish someone in a burning hell because they didn't believe in the right version of God.  I'm sorry for your friends who lost a child and they also thought they lost them to hell because God called them home when He did.  I make no claims to knowing anything.  But I choose to believe in a fair and just God who is well aware of the absurd amount of information we have on Him (absurd meaning hardly any) and the psychology of the human mind and how that plays into every thought, opinion and testimony.  But on the flip side of an eternal hell, eternal families don't make much sense to me either.  When you carry that logic out it's just full of holes and craziness.  And eternal families is highly unsubstantiated by scripture whereas a burning hell is at least mentioned in most of the canonized scripture.  I don't know.  Which God you believe in is a crap shoot of where, when and how you were raised.  All of which is out of a person's control.  I think God will be incredibly merciful.  I really do.

Link to comment
17 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I hear and feel your pain. I'm past feeling that without my having a current TR that I won't live with God. It's the teachings that we must be sealed in the temple and keep our covenants that to me seem to separate families rather than keep them together. The majority of the time, not all, family members are not all on the same level as far as belief in the LDS church. So it feels like the church's teachings seem to tear families apart in the hereafter vs. keeping them together. If we were like most other faiths, we'd believe we will be together and believe it's because of the atonement. 

But in the LDS faith, I guess it's members become Saviors as well, and that always bothered me too. I remember a lesson in RS that we are to be Saviors on the mount. https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-41?lang=eng

 

With my new train(s) of thought that Pres. Nelson's talk made happen in my brain, I'm beginning to feel similarly. For some reason "eternal families" feels just gut level wrong in the way the church applies it.  I'm not comfortable having to believe that 2 sweet little, little (6yo and 2yo) girls couldn't be returned to a loving Heavenly Father because they hadn't been sealed to anyone.  That just doesn't make sense to me.  It goes against logic, and compassion, and scriptural doctrine. 

Link to comment
13 hours ago, BillyandJane said:

With my new train(s) of thought that Pres. Nelson's talk made happen in my brain, I'm beginning to feel similarly. For some reason "eternal families" feels just gut level wrong in the way the church applies it.  I'm not comfortable having to believe that 2 sweet little, little (6yo and 2yo) girls couldn't be returned to a loving Heavenly Father because they hadn't been sealed to anyone.  That just doesn't make sense to me.  It goes against logic, and compassion, and scriptural doctrine. 

It also goes against the teachings of the church, which is why it seems logical to assume that's not what Pres. Nelson was saying.

Link to comment
4 hours ago, bluebell said:

It also goes against the teachings of the church, which is why it seems logical to assume that's not what Pres. Nelson was saying.

Right? I know, that's what was/is driving me a bit mad.  He sure did not do a good job at all explaining why those girls would come to him pleading for his help because they weren't sealed.  Then since I've asked this question, remarks made here and other talks and lessons I've read do point to the fact that being sealed to a spouse and to one's parents and kids is an absolute requirement for exaltation.  Which, again, I've known that about marriage sealings, I am sealed, I've taught that.  But again, it just never dawned on me to relate this doctrine to those who died before age 8, the age we believe they become accountable.  

Bruce C. Hafen of the 70 said this: "we must be sealed to a spouse in order to qualify for exaltation in the celestial kingdom because only a sealed couple can enjoy the continuation of seed promised by exaltation."  So what to do with that?  We have temple sealings being absolutely mandatory but the more I study them the more they just sound silly, for a lack of a better word. They aren't mentioned in the Bible, or the Book of Mormon and in just a few places in the D and C, and even those kind of contradict each other and current doctrine.  Contrast this to orthodox Christianity, that of believing Jesus came and died to pay for our sins, and all who believe Him and accepting His free gift will go to Heaven.  No waiting around hoping your name is found in someone's genealogy, then hoping someone actually submits it to the temple to be done.  No confusing guesses on what happens to single people of all ages who were good people but just single. Or they were single because they died as a small child.  No guessing on who will they be sealed to in the next life and how that will look.  Will they get a choice of eternal mates or will they be assigned?  Who will do their sealing seeing as they are dead and a mortal wouldn't know who they were wanting to be sealed to?  If dead people can't do their own ordinance work, how about resurrected beings?  How come they can't just do their own work after the resurrection?  Why would God have mortals running around chasing down millions of names when He could just resurrect all the people, like He's going to anyway, and then let them decide on which ordinances, if any, they want to participate in?  No confusing guesses on what it means to have a continuation of seed for ever and ever and ever.  No confusing guesses on who then is a God to your forever seed, you as that seed's parent, or Elohim.  No confusing guesses on what becomes of that seed: which world do they go to?  Will they have a premortal existence story like we have, with Jesus and Satan both volunteering?  If so will it be the same devil and the same Jesus?  Or will there be new ones?  If there doesn't have to be a new Satan and a new Jesus and they just get to go to a world will that world have had a 'fall'?  So there are just countless worlds going through the exact same procedure ie., premortal organization, creation, Adam falling, mortals being born, mortals dying, righteous sealed mortals being exalted to have the right to organize even more intelligences into spirit babies, and on and on.  It sounds convoluted.  It sounds half-baked.  I pull one little string of thought and follow it out a little and it just all seems ridiculous, really.  And I'm not trying to discount what I know are people's most sacred of beliefs. I'm just finding it really hard to accept in light of small children not being fully redeemed, which then puts into question the very power and majesty and love and sacrifice our Savior made for us.  I don't want to live the rest of my life feeling or believing that His sacrifice wasn't enough. 

 

Ooh, sorry bluebell.  I didn't mean to dump on you.  Those are all the thoughts that have been floating in my head over the past week and they all just came out.  :)  

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...