Great apostasy in the New World Too?

[Jane_Doe]

14 minutes ago, snowflake said:

 The Old World Christian church survived. You are correct that the Catholics and Orthodox faiths claim direct lineage to the NT apostles, and from that there are literally billions of worldwide Christians coming from these roots. 

Yes, and Protestants claim they (the Orthodox and Catholics) had fallen from Truth.  And yet many ignore this fact and criticize the LDS church for likewise believing they had fallen from Truth.  

14 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Jane, I am asking questions regarding the LDS faith in a respectful manner, I was raised LDS, In my short lifetime I can point out several signifcant changes the current LDS sect of Mormonism has adopted. Are you suggesting that the LDS faith hasn't altered it's doctrine? 

LDS believe in continuing revelation.

Meanwhile, Protestants do not and yet over my lifetime I have seem many of them change dramatically.  Again, another fact ignored by many Protestants making this argument.

 

 

I have no issue with other people believe differently than me-- that's your right.  But I do have issues with people hypocritically attacking others.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

It was all one big tergiversationary hot mess!

New word for the day!

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Alma 45:10-14 .......................................

As anthropologist John Clark has observed,   

Quote

 A correspondence that has always impressed me involves prophecies in 400-year blocks. The Maya were obsessed with time, and they carved precise dates on their stone monuments that began with the count of 400 years, an interval called a baktun. Each baktun was made up of 20 katuns, an extremely important 20-year interval.[35] If you permit me some liberties with the text, Samuel the Lamanite warned the Nephites that one baktun "shall not pass away before . . . they [would] be smitten" (Helaman 13:9). Nephi and Alma uttered the same baktun prophecy, and Moroni recorded its fulfillment. Moroni bids us farewell just after the first katun of this final baktun, or 420 years since the "sign was given of the coming of Christ" (Moroni 10:1).[36] What are the chances of Joseph Smith guessing correctly the vigesimal system of timekeeping and prophesying among the Maya and their neighbors over 50 years before scholars stumbled onto it?  (Clark in JBMS, 14/2 [2005]:38-49,71-74).

 

[snowflake]

51 minutes ago, pogi said:

What do you find interesting about it?  The Christians of the New World were completely destroyed off the earth.  While many were murdered in the Old World, they were not completely destroyed.  Remnants of the Christian church therefore survived. 

If remnants  of the LDS church were murdered, would the Mormon church be in remnants, or would your "truth" survive? 

You can claim whatever you want, i'm just pointing out that the Catholics and Orthodox churches have survived from the days of the Apostles, documented lineage. 

New world church was wiped out..... why would Jesus have said 

Matthew 16:18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

It seems like the gates of hell prevailed against the New world church. 

[pogi]

9 minutes ago, snowflake said:

If remnants  of the LDS church were murdered, would the Mormon church be in remnants, or would your "truth" survive? 

You can claim whatever you want, i'm just pointing out that the Catholics and Orthodox churches have survived from the days of the Apostles, documented lineage. 

The great apostasy is an apostasy of priesthood more than an apostasy of truth - though some of that happened too.  Remnants of scriptures (truth) remained, but interpretations have been corrupted overtime without guidance from proper priesthood authority.

You say that both Catholic and Orthodox churches have survived - how can they all claim the singular authority given to Peter?  And how do you know they have it?  How do you know that such authority has not been corrupted?  Do you not rely on testimony as much as I do in this regard?  

    

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Matthew 16:18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

It seems like the gates of hell prevailed against the New world church. 

Christ's church is bigger and badder then ever...hell has not prevailed against Christ's church or against the rock of revelation in the end. 

 

[bluebell]

45 minutes ago, snowflake said:

It seems like the gates of hell prevailed against the New world church. 

Only in the same sense that death prevailed against Christ when He was on the cross. 

 

[snowflake]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

The great apostasy is an apostasy of priesthood more than an apostasy of truth - though some of that happened too.  Remnants of scriptures (truth) remained, but interpretations have been corrupted overtime without guidance from proper priesthood authority.

So the original apostles were not baptizing and laying on of hands? I thought that was how priesthood was passed on, that's how my father did it for me. 

There simply isn't any manuscript evidence, that the message of the Bible has been altered in any significant way. We have tens of thousands of manuscripts that support the Biblical narrative. 

[Gray]

Just curious, when do people in the forum think that the apostasy started in the old world? Later in the first century, after the apostles had died out? Or maybe more like a continuum, terminating with the solidification of Christian orthodoxy in the fourth century?

[JLHPROF]

36 minutes ago, snowflake said:

If remnants  of the LDS church were murdered, would the Mormon church be in remnants, or would your "truth" survive? 

You can claim whatever you want, i'm just pointing out that the Catholics and Orthodox churches have survived from the days of the Apostles, documented lineage. 

New world church was wiped out..... why would Jesus have said 

Matthew 16:18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

It seems like the gates of hell prevailed against the New world church. 

 

Matthew 16:
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Maybe Peter, maybe not.  Mormonism allows for both interpretations.
And the "gates of hell" prevailing refer to the rock, not the Church in my opinion.

 

[JLHPROF]

Just now, Gray said:

Just curious, when do people in the forum think that the apostasy started in the old world? Later in the first century, after the apostles had died out? Or maybe more like a continuum, terminating with the solidification of Christian orthodoxy in the fourth century?

It was a continuum in my opinion, with a progression of events.  There would have been a moment when it began, when the Church officially began to change from the gospel, but we don't know for certain when that is.  We know that there were apostate divisions in the days of Paul so the apostasy may have begun during the apostles lifetimes.

[Gray]

4 minutes ago, snowflake said:

So the original apostles were not baptizing and laying on of hands? I thought that was how priesthood was passed on, that's how my father did it for me. 

There simply isn't any manuscript evidence, that the message of the Bible has been altered in any significant way. We have tens of thousands of manuscripts that support the Biblical narrative. 

Depends on what you mean by "significant." The Book of Mormon talks a lot of about alterations to the original Bible, corruptions to the "pure" original and unified message. There was certainly some alteration, but the truth is the message was never pure, and the theology was constantly evolving. It wasn't had from the beginning and then changed by calculating scribes. There are many competing theologies in the Bible, because its writers believed different things about God.

In any case, Pogi was talking about interpretation, which is not the same thing as preservation of the text.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Gray

[snowflake]

17 minutes ago, pogi said:

You say that both Catholic and Orthodox churches have survived - how can they all claim the singular authority given to Peter?  And how do you know they have it?  How do you know that such authority has not been corrupted?  Do you not rely on testimony as much as I do in this regard?  

We know that there were many NT churches created after the day of Pentacost, on that day Peter was there with 120 of Christ's disciples when the Holy Ghost came upon them. 

^{Acts 1:15} And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

¹⁶ Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

These disciples were from all over the old world: Acts 2: 9

⁹ Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

¹⁰ Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

¹¹ Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Then later in acts 2:41

⁴¹ Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

⁴² And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

⁴³ And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

⁴⁴ And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

⁴⁵ And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

⁴⁶ And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

⁴⁷ Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

 

So here you have the beginning of the "church". These disciples then went on to teach and baptize with authority all over the Old world. 

 

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, snowflake said:

So the original apostles were not baptizing and laying on of hands? I thought that was how priesthood was passed on, that's how my father did it for me. 

I don't know what you are getting at here. Can you explain yourself? 

32 minutes ago, snowflake said:

There simply isn't any manuscript evidence, that the message of the Bible has been altered in any significant way. We have tens of thousands of manuscripts that support the Biblical narrative. 

I never said that the Bible has been significantly altered, but there are clearly some scribal errors etc.  My claim is that the interpretation of scripture, and ordinances/practices have become corrupted.  For example, sola scriptura, sola fide, the trinitarian creeds, baptism by immersion, etc.  But there are clearly entire books of scripture missing from the bible.  There are many books of scripture referenced in the Bible which are not found anywhere in the Bible - lost in time!  So, some truths were entirely lost, while others have become corrupted through authority-less councils and other alterations over time. 

Edited March 6, 2018 by pogi

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, snowflake said:

So the original apostles were not baptizing and laying on of hands? I thought that was how priesthood was passed on, that's how my father did it for me. 

There simply isn't any manuscript evidence, that the message of the Bible has been altered in any significant way. We have tens of thousands of manuscripts that support the Biblical narrative. 

The message of the Bible is the Fall and the redemption from the Fall by Christ and his atonement.
Truly, that has not been altered despite the numerous interpretations put on elements of this principle.

But the idea that the Bible has not been altered over the centuries would not be agreed on by a great many scholars.  The whole discussion brought up recently on the board about Mark 16 for instance would be just one example.  And then there are the non-canonized books and the missing books mentioned in the Bible itself.

The Bible as a collection of individual books by definition has been altered because texts were added and subtracted from it for centuries.  The message of Christ remains.

[pogi]

6 minutes ago, snowflake said:

We know that there were many NT churches created after the day of Pentacost, on that day Peter was there with 120 of Christ's disciples when the Holy Ghost came upon them.

All the NT churches were united under Peter, under Christ.  It is like multiple wards and stakes across the world today - one church with many congregations.  They were not different churches, per se, but different congregations of the same church.  You never answered my questions as to how you know that the authority has not been corrupted over time.

[snowflake]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The message of the Bible is the Fall and the redemption from the Fall by Christ and his atonement.
Truly, that has not been altered despite the numerous interpretations put on elements of this principle.

But the idea that the Bible has not been altered over the centuries would not be agreed on by a great many scholars.  The whole discussion brought up recently on the board about Mark 16 for instance would be just one example.  And then there are the non-canonized books and the missing books mentioned in the Bible itself.

The Bible as a collection of individual books by definition has been altered because texts were added and subtracted from it for centuries.  The message of Christ remains.

That is a very fair analysis, there are quite a few books in the Catholic bible that don't exist in the current LDS KJV bible. And I agree that there are "missing books" mentioned in the Bible, but the overall message of the Fall and redemption by Christ is supported by manuscripts in which the message is consistent. I love that the LDS use the KJV. 

[snowflake]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

All the NT churches were united under Peter, under Christ.  It is like multiple wards and stakes across the world today - one church with many congregations.  They were not different churches, per se, but different congregations of the same church.  You never answered my questions as to how you know that the authority has not been corrupted over time.

I can't say for sure that the "authority" has not been corrupted over time, just like you can't say for sure that it has. 

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I can't say for sure that the "authority" has not been corrupted over time, just like you can't say for sure that it has. 

So what are we arguing about then?

[snowflake]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

You never answered my questions as to how you know that the authority has not been corrupted over time.

We can compare what Christian churches are teaching today in light of the Bible. The nature of God, Jesus, his gospel, baptism, justification, salvation, caring for the weak, poor, widows, orphans etc. 

[pogi]

1 minute ago, snowflake said:

We can compare what Christian churches are teaching today in light of the Bible. The nature of God, Jesus, his gospel, baptism, justification, salvation, caring for the weak, poor, widows, orphans etc. 

In light of different interpretations of the Bible, where will that get us?

[snowflake]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

So what are we arguing about then?

You say there is a great apostasy, I am looking for evidence of that. I have evidence of a succession of churches back to Jesus in the Catholic and Orthodox churches, you are telling me that doesn't matter, your testimony trumps historical documentation. 

[pogi]

33 minutes ago, snowflake said:

You say there is a great apostasy, I am looking for evidence of that. I have evidence of a succession of churches back to Jesus in the Catholic and Orthodox churches, you are telling me that doesn't matter, your testimony trumps historical documentation. 

Documentation doesn't prove priesthood authority.  For example, I also have historical documentation of the restoration and a documented priesthood lineage to Peter.  Your documents against mine. 

Ultimately, I have to follow my heart, as do you.  

Edited March 6, 2018 by pogi

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, snowflake said:

You say there is a great apostasy, I am looking for evidence of that. I have evidence of a succession of churches back to Jesus in the Catholic and Orthodox churches, you are telling me that doesn't matter, your testimony trumps historical documentation. 

Are you Catholic or Orthodox?

[CV75]

5 hours ago, snowflake said:

Since Christ set up both churches (new world and old world), gave them the "authority", gave them a prophet.... what did he get wrong that led to this "hot mess"? 

Absolutely nothing. From John 12:24, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." The apostasy led to the restoration (and more significantly in my opinion, the dispensation of the fulness of times) just as Jesus' death led to the resurrection of all humanity and His suffering led to our cleansing. The Great Apostasy was part of the expression of human agency, part of the grand scheme where every intelligence, greater and lesser, has his or her day in the sun before the Lord settles everything in His own way. That He can turn it around and make it greater is a testament to His divinity.