Location of Land of Nephi

[Bernard Gui]

In 2 Nephi 5:15, Nephi lists raw materials they found in the Land of Nephi which they used to construct buildings including a smaller verof Solomon‘s Temple. Do any of the proposed locations for the events of the Book of Mormon have this abundance of wood and metals?

Quote

And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

 

[CV75]

25 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

In 2 Nephi 5:15, Nephi lists raw materials they found in the Land of Nephi which they used to construct buildings including a smaller verof Solomon‘s Temple. Do any of the proposed locations for the events of the Book of Mormon have this abundance of wood and metals?

I am also wondering what precious things* other than wood, iron, copper, brass, steel, gold, silver, and precious ores that were not in the same abundance as Solomon's temple (verse 16, "16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine). That might add to pinpointing a location.

* Edit: Did a quick review of materials that are mentioned in the Old Testament but not in Nephi’s record:  building stones, incense, cedar and evergreen wood, emeralds and other certain gems, etc.

Edited February 9, 2018 by CV75

[Robert F. Smith]

20 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

In 2 Nephi 5:15, Nephi lists raw materials they found in the Land of Nephi which they used to construct buildings including a smaller verof Solomon‘s Temple. Do any of the proposed locations for the events of the Book of Mormon have this abundance of wood and metals?

If the Land of Nephi (the land of first inheritance) was highland Guatemala, then it is clear that plenty of timber, gold, and silver was available in that area.  All other minerals are present there, but may not have been easily accessible, so that trade from Mexico could provide plenty of iron, copper, tin, zinc, etc. (KJV "brass" is bronze, which is a copper & tin alloy).  https://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/country/2010/myb3-2010-gt.pdf .  The trading networks had existed for a thousand years before the arrival of the Nephites, and the Olmec (Jaredites) had tons of iron objects stored in their cities (the ore obtained by surface mining in Oaxaca).

[Robert F. Smith]

21 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I am also wondering what precious things* other than wood, iron, copper, brass, steel, gold, silver, and precious ores that were not in the same abundance as Solomon's temple (verse 16, "16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine)............................

This makes one think of ziff, the material of value which was used (along with gold, silver, iron, brass, and copper) by King Noah to ornament buildings (Mosiah 11:3,8, from the “Record of Zeniff” -- the only other place where the double-ff occurs in the BofM).  The late Prof Ellis Rasmussen[1] suggested that this is most likely related to biblical Hebrew ṣippâ, the piel form of ṣāpâ “overlay (with gold or copper), to plate; stud (with gold, wood, or precious stones),”etc. (Exodus 25:11-12, 26:32, 1 Kings 6:15,20, 2 Chronicles 3:4,6,10,15, Proverbs 26:23), a ṣippûy being a silver or other “metal plating” on idols, capitals, or an altar (Exodus 38:17,19, Numbers 17:3-4, Isaiah 30:22, Daniel 2:31).  The P and F in Hebrew are the same consonant.

[1] Book of Mormon, 1981 LDS edition, note 3b at Mosiah 11:3 (Rasmussen was in charge of the footnotes).

[cinepro]

9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The P and F in Hebrew are the same consonant.

 

What are P and F in Reformed Egyptian?

[Robert F. Smith]

31 minutes ago, cinepro said:

What are P and F in Reformed Egyptian?

They are different letters (glyphs) in ancient Egyptian, and presumably in Reformed Egyptian as well.

 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I am also wondering what precious things* other than wood, iron, copper, brass, steel, gold, silver, and precious ores that were not in the same abundance as Solomon's temple (verse 16, "16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine). That might add to pinpointing a location.

* Edit: Did a quick review of materials that are mentioned in the Old Testament but not in Nephi’s record:  building stones, incense, cedar and evergreen wood, emeralds and other certain gems, etc.

Also, the precious stones embedded in the High Priest's breastplate:

Quote

"And you shall set it with four rows of mounted stones; the first row: a ruby, an emerald, and a topaz. The second row: a carbuncle, a sapphire, and a quartz crystal. The third row: a jacinth, an agate, and an amethyst. The fourth row: a chrysolite, an onyx, and an opal. These stones shall be placed in gold settings. The stones shall contain the names of the twelve children of Israel, one for each of the twelve stones; each one's name shall be engraved as on a signet ring, to represent the twelve tribes."(Ex. 28: 17-21)

 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

If the Land of Nephi (the land of first inheritance) was highland Guatemala, then it is clear that plenty of timber, gold, and silver was available in that area.  All other minerals are present there, but may not have been easily accessible, so that trade from Mexico could provide plenty of iron, copper, tin, zinc, etc. (KJV "brass" is bronze, which is a copper & tin alloy).  https://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/country/2010/myb3-2010-gt.pdf .  The trading networks had existed for a thousand years before the arrival of the Nephites, and the Olmec (Jaredites) had tons of iron objects stored in their cities (the ore obtained by surface mining in Oaxaca).

Do you mean to say that within a short time after the Nephites moved to the Land of Nephi they established trade with other parts of Mexico?

[Kevin Christensen]

43 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Do you mean to say that within a short time after the Nephites moved to the Land of Nephi they established trade with other parts of Mexico?

According to Brant Gardner, yes:

Quote

There is a condition, however, that explains all of Jacob’s economic problems. That condition is trade. As will be noted, not just any trade, but trade in Mesoamerica at this particular point in time. As noted for the coastal region of Guatemala, there were others in the land when the Lehites arrived, and archaeology tells us that there are other populations and cities in the general land when the Nephites arrive at the location of their city, presumed to have been in the Guatemalan highlands. If we assume that the gold and silver were being worked, using metalworking skills Nephi could have taught them, then these worked goods would have exchange value with other cities, and the resulting importation of goods creates a situation where those engaged in the trade accumulate more unique prestige goods than those who do not trade outside of their own city. Thus trade provides precisely the conditions Jacob is combating.

The process of trade would have brought not only esoteric goods, but also a mechanism for the very social differentiation that Jacob excoriates. This is the cultural problem behind the “costly apparel” that will become one of the hallmark themes of the competing religious ideas throughout the rest of the Book of Mormon. In Mesoamerica, the time period of the early Nephites saw developing social stratification, and an increasing pressure towards kingship in the cities of the Maya lands. This social differentiation was supported by the accumulation of esoteric goods, often displayed on the clothing of the elite. As Schele and Mathews put it, “People throughout Mesoamerica wore these currencies as jewelry and clothing to display the wealth and enterprise of their families.”¹⁰ Bringing in clothing and adornments from other locations is a way to create a differentiation in dress. When the clothing itself becomes the display mode for elite consumption goods, then the costly apparel in and of itself becomes the marker of the increasing economic and social distance between developing classes. It is important to remember that Jacob’s issue is never wealth, but rather the social stratification that was based on wealth. The costly apparel was a unique Mesoamerican mode of creating and displaying that social separation. The pressures for creating social stratification that we see beginning in the city of Nephi mirror the greater trend in the entire Mesoamerican cultural area at just this point in time.

The presence of trade relations with other Mesoamerican communities therefore provides a context in which we may understand Jacob’s sermon denouncing social stratification through wealth, particularly wealth manifest through costly apparel. It is that very same context that explains both why he also preaches against polygyny and some of the anomalies of that particular discourse. Before looking at the cultural background, we again must note that Jacob’s denunciation of polygyny is problematic for multiple reasons, none of which have to do with the obvious difference between Jacob’s denunciation and historical LDS polygamy.

https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2001/a-social-history-of-the-early-nephites

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Also, the precious stones embedded in the High Priest's breastplate:

I suspect those kinds of stones, and other valuables, were gathered in Moses' day by the Israelite's' spoiling of Egypt when they left, and preserved through the days of Solomon's temple (but who knows? Maybe some were brought into Egypt and passed down from Jacob). The cedars and evergreens came from Tyre. At any rate, some materials and perhaps dyes could not be found in Nephi's new home, and this could help identify locations in the New World. 

Of course, if they traded with distant groups in the New World, this would complicate identifying an area by what is not found there.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I suspect those kinds of stones, and other valuables, were gathered in Moses' day by the Israelite's' spoiling of Egypt when they left, and preserved through the days of Solomon's temple (but who knows? Maybe some were brought into Egypt and passed down from Jacob). The cedars and evergreens came from Tyre. At any rate, some materials and perhaps dyes could not be found in Nephi's new home, and this could help identify locations in the New World. 

Of course, if they traded with distant groups in the New World, this would complicate identifying an area by what is not found there.

Could that kind of far-flung trade be established in just a few years.....from the time Nephi parted company with his brothers to the time they began construction of the temple? 

 

[strappinglad]

I wonder which of the original Nephite group were skilled in stone work . Stone is about the only readily obtainable substance that can survive exposure to the elements for long periods , as one would want a temple to be around a long time. Fine stone working is not a skill picked up by common laborers in a week.

[clarkgoble]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

In 2 Nephi 5:15, Nephi lists raw materials they found in the Land of Nephi which they used to construct buildings including a smaller verof Solomon‘s Temple. Do any of the proposed locations for the events of the Book of Mormon have this abundance of wood and metals?

Wood yes. Metals are much more problematic as there's zero evidence of metal use in the relevant era. That remains the #1 problem of evidence for the Book of Mormon. The general region has copper and gold, although I don't think most people argue for a particular location for Nephi's arrival with any confidence. Other metals might be obtained by trade. The problem is that the evidence for metal use tends to start around 300 AD around Panama and then moves up to Mexico later typically around 800 AD.

South America does a bit better and you can find hammered gold and copper from Peru through Chile and Ecuador going back to between 1000 - 2000 BC depending upon the details. There's also silver use from 1000 BC - 100 BC. This is all hammering though and not smelting. But this is why some have tried to figure out a way to put the location in South America rather than southern Mexico.

So the issue isn't whether the metal was available so much as whether it was used. I suspect it was which is why I still favor southern Mexico as a site - but I recognize the evidence as a problem. One hope for this new discovery, despite its late date, is that the size of the city strongly suggests much more trade than previously thought. That in turn makes trade with South America much more plausible. But if there was trade with South America then the issue of missing metal gets interesting. Hopefully they just find some metal in some strata (say an old toilet) that can be dated earlier than 200 AD.

4 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

According to Brant Gardner, yes:

https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2001/a-social-history-of-the-early-nephites

I agree with Brant's logic regarding trade and wealth. I'd just again note the lack of evidence for this in the region. Likewise if Nephi's metal work skills were as valuable as Brant said, one can ask what happened to it. This is a huge skill the Nephites bring with them after separating from the Lamanites. Alas it's hard to say much given that the small plates tell us almost nothing of what happens after Jacob until Benjamin.

However a solid argument is that the Nephites didn't trade since the metallurgy didn't persist. How compelling that argument is really rests upon what arguments one is embracing to explain away the lack of metal evidence.

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by clarkgoble

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Do you mean to say that within a short time after the Nephites moved to the Land of Nephi they established trade with other parts of Mexico?

Yes, but the trade networks did not need to be established.  They already existed and were extensive.  The Nephites had only to utilize them by offering something the others wanted.  There was even trade with Andean civilizations in South America (by boat).

[Bernard Gui]

9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, but the trade networks did not need to be established.  They already existed and were extensive.  The Nephites had only to utilize them by offering something the others wanted.  There was even trade with Andean civilizations in South America (by boat).

It would be nice if there were some evidence of that.

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Wood yes. Metals are much more problematic as there's zero evidence of metal use in the relevant era. That remains the #1 problem of evidence for the Book of Mormon. The general region has copper and gold, although I don't think most people argue for a particular location for Nephi's arrival with any confidence. Other metals might be obtained by trade. The problem is that the evidence for metal use tends to start around 300 AD around Panama and then moves up to Mexico later typically around 800 AD.

South America does a bit better and you can find hammered gold and copper from Peru through Chile and Ecuador going back to between 1000 - 2000 BC depending upon the details. There's also silver use from 1000 BC - 100 BC. This is all hammering though and not smelting. But this is why some have tried to figure out a way to put the location in South America rather than southern Mexico.

So the issue isn't whether the metal was available so much as whether it was used. I suspect it was which is why I still favor southern Mexico as a site - but I recognize the evidence as a problem. One hope for this new discovery, despite its late date, is that the size of the city strongly suggests much more trade than previously thought. That in turn makes trade with South America much more plausible. But if there was trade with South America then the issue of missing metal gets interesting. Hopefully they just find some metal in some strata (say an old toilet) that can be dated earlier than 200 AD.

I agree with Brant's logic regarding trade and wealth. I'd just again note the lack of evidence for this in the region. Likewise if Nephi's metal work skills were as valuable as Brant said, one can ask what happened to it. This is a huge skill the Nephites bring with them after separating from the Lamanites. Alas it's hard to say much given that the small plates tell us almost nothing of what happens after Jacob until Benjamin.

However a solid argument is that the Nephites didn't trade since the metallurgy didn't persist. How compelling that argument is really rests upon what arguments one is embracing to explain away the lack of metal evidence.

 

Thank you. I'm more concerned about Nephi's statement that was quoted in the OP, not the availability later down the road. If the Nephites knew metallurgy and had those raw materials, they would have had great advantages over neighbors and something extremely valuable to trade. I wonder how much metal work 40 or 50 people can do.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Robert F. Smith]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

It would be nice if there were some evidence of that.

Of what?  Of the South American trade, or of the Nephites engaging in trade?

[Bernard Gui]

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

Of what?  Of the South American trade, or of the Nephites engaging in trade?

Nephites.

 

[clarkgoble]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you. I'm more concerned about Nephi's statement that was quoted in the OP, not the availability later down the road. If the Nephites knew metallurgy and had those raw materials, they would have had great advantages over neighbors and something extremely valuable to trade. I wonder how many much metal work 40 or 50 people can do.

Yes that’s a further problem since it says they found them rather than traded for them. That’s a big problem for the Guatemala landing site model. The usual answer is that plentiful need not mean in the ground.

Edited February 10, 2018 by clarkgoble

[Robert F. Smith]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Nephites.

Yes, same problem with finding the presence of "others" in the BofM.  See https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=jbms .

Sorenson finds evidence for Semitic peoples coming into Olmec territory on La Venta Stela 3, which he interprets as Mulekites (Mormon's Codex, 532-533, 538-542), and he likewise finds strong reason for elite rule by the Nephites over indigenous peoples in highland Guatemala, the hybrid group then all becoming "Nephites" (542-568).  While Sorenson deals primarily with the New World archeological evidence, Brant Gardner takes a close look at the BofM internal evidence and is critical of Sorenson (Traditions of the Fathers, 167-170).

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Could that kind of far-flung trade be established in just a few years.....from the time Nephi parted company with his brothers to the time they began construction of the temple? 

It looks like they separated around 588 BC and built the temple around 570 BC – even 1/4 that time would be enough under the right circumstances (I would think). No trade with others is mentioned, though, so assuming there was no trade, we’d have to triangulate where the materials common to the OT and the 2 Nephi record are found in abundance and the missing materials from the OT record are not found.

[RevTestament]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

In 2 Nephi 5:15, Nephi lists raw materials they found in the Land of Nephi which they used to construct buildings including a smaller verof Solomon‘s Temple. Do any of the proposed locations for the events of the Book of Mormon have this abundance of wood and metals?

Yes. 

I'll pose a question here. What is "steel" if iron is listed separately? Is it the name of iron once smelted or something else?

[Rajah Manchou]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

"And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance."
 
Do any of the proposed locations for the events of the Book of Mormon have this abundance of wood and metals?

To build his temple Solomon sent his servants to distant Ophir to collect many of the materials. So where was Ophir?

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by Rajah Manchou

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

It looks like they separated around 588 BC and built the temple around 570 BC – even 1/4 that time would be enough under the right circumstances (I would think). No trade with others is mentioned, though, so assuming there was no trade, we’d have to triangulate where the materials common to the OT and the 2 Nephi record are found in abundance and the missing materials from the OT record are not found.

How did you figure that timeline? Nephi said they found the materials, not traded for them.

5 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Yes. 

I'll pose a question here. What is "steel" if iron is listed separately? Is it the name of iron once smelted or something else?

I like the Spanish phrase, ¿Quie’n sabe?

[CV75]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

How did you figure that timeline? Nephi said they found the materials, not traded for them.

The timeline is put together from the chapter headings of 2 Nephi 4 and 5; footnotes for verses 28 and 34 in chapter 5. Yes, I guess from verse 16 it seems if certain "precious things" were not found upon the land, they were not traded for either. But also, the phrase is, "not built of so many precious things," so maybe there just wasn't such quantity of the same precious materials sufficient  to match the grandeur of Solomon's temple. Maybe there weren't as many or as large vessels, utensils, accessories, appointments, decorations, etc., or precious metal leaf was substituted for solid metal to stretch things out better.