RevTestament Posted February 10, 2018 Posted February 10, 2018 8 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: To build his temple Solomon sent his servants to distant Ophir to collect many of the materials. So where was Ophir? There is not much doubt in my mind that Ophir was in the region of Havilah, and was a gold mine town on/near the Red Sea in the mountains of Arabia. On the Egyptian side was Nubia, which was also rich in gold, and was where Egypt got most of their gold. It is known the Arabian side also had gold mines. This is indirectly supported by the text. 1 Kings 22:48 48 Jehoshaphat made ships of Tharshish to go to Ophir for gold: but they went not; for the ships were broken at aEzion-geber. Ezion Geber was on the Red Sea. 1 Kings 9:26 And king Solomon made a navy of ships in Ezion-geber, which is beside Eloth, on the shore of the Red sea, in the land of Edom. 27 And Hiram sent in the navy his servants, shipmen that had knowledge of the sea, with the servants of Solomon. 28 And they came to Ophir, and fetched from thence gold, four hundred and twenty talents, and brought it to king Solomon.
Rajah Manchou Posted February 11, 2018 Posted February 11, 2018 11 hours ago, RevTestament said: There is not much doubt in my mind that Ophir was in the region of Havilah, and was a gold mine town on/near the Red Sea in the mountains of Arabia. On the Egyptian side was Nubia, which was also rich in gold, and was where Egypt got most of their gold. It is known the Arabian side also had gold mines. This is indirectly supported by the text. King Solomon received a cargo of gold, silver, sandalwood, pearls, ivory, apes, and peacocks from Ophir every three years. The gold, silver, pearls, ivory and apes could have come from any of the locations (excluding the Americas) that are most often proposed. But sandalwood and peacocks are more tricky. The cautious side of me picks a location on the Arabian Peninsula, but peacocks in Arabia? Also, the account states that a roundtrip to Ophir took three years. This, in my mind, suggests a location that is more distant than any location on the Arabian Peninsula.
Stargazer Posted February 11, 2018 Posted February 11, 2018 On 2/9/2018 at 7:03 PM, RevTestament said: Yes. I'll pose a question here. What is "steel" if iron is listed separately? Is it the name of iron once smelted or something else? "Steel" is a term of art. What I mean by this is that we use it today to mean iron mingled with trace amounts of carbon. It has been, and still is used to mean other things that refer to hardness or durability. Before modern steel was invented, the King James translators used the word in their Bible translation, but it clearly did not mean carbon steel (it probably referred to bronze, an alloy of copper and tin). You may be familiar with the term "steel" used as a verb: "I had to steel myself against disappointment." Meaning "I had to make myself hard in order to face disappointment." When Nephi broke his bow of steel, this bow could not possibly have been made of iron, otherwise he couldn't have drawn it to shoot an arrow. Spring steel? Hadn't been invented yet, I don't think. Nephi's bow was probably a composite, or laminated bow, made out of wood, horn, sinew -- with the word "steel" being used to describe its strength or strong draw weight, not the material it was made of. 2
Stargazer Posted February 11, 2018 Posted February 11, 2018 On 2/9/2018 at 7:03 PM, RevTestament said: Yes. I'll pose a question here. What is "steel" if iron is listed separately? Is it the name of iron once smelted or something else? "Steel" is a term of art. What I mean by this is that we use it today to mean iron mingled with trace amounts of carbon. It has been, and still is used to mean other things that refer to hardness or durability. Before modern steel was invented, the King James translators used the word in their Bible translation, but it clearly did not mean carbon steel (it probably referred to bronze, an alloy of copper and tin). You may be familiar with the term "steel" used as a verb: "I had to steel myself against disappointment." Meaning "I had to make myself hard in order to face disappointment." When Nephi broke his bow of steel, this bow could not possibly have been made of iron, otherwise he couldn't have drawn it to shoot an arrow. Spring steel? Hadn't been invented yet, I don't think. Nephi's bow was probably a composite, or laminated bow, made out of wood, horn, sinew -- with the word "steel" being used to describe its strength or strong draw weight, not the material it was made of.
Stargazer Posted February 11, 2018 Posted February 11, 2018 On 2/9/2018 at 7:03 PM, RevTestament said: Yes. I'll pose a question here. What is "steel" if iron is listed separately? Is it the name of iron once smelted or something else? "Steel" is a term of art. What I mean by this is that we use it today to mean iron mingled with trace amounts of carbon. It has been, and still is used to mean other things that refer to hardness or durability. Before modern steel was invented, the King James translators used the word in their Bible translation, but it clearly did not mean carbon steel (it probably referred to bronze, an alloy of copper and tin). You may be familiar with the term "steel" used as a verb: "I had to steel myself against disappointment." Meaning "I had to make myself hard in order to face disappointment." When Nephi broke his bow of steel, this bow could not possibly have been made of iron, otherwise he couldn't have drawn it to shoot an arrow. Spring steel? Hadn't been invented yet, I don't think. Nephi's bow was probably a composite, or laminated bow, made out of wood, horn, sinew -- with the word "steel" being used to describe its strength or strong draw weight, not the material it was made of.
talltimber Posted February 11, 2018 Posted February 11, 2018 Some day every believer in the Book of Mormon will accept that the land of Nephi is the land around Cuzco, Peru. At least CONSIDER the evidence: https://goo.gl/fP1yCS [To go to the next Part in this 33 part series use the Menu on the right side of the webpage.]
RevTestament Posted February 11, 2018 Posted February 11, 2018 12 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: King Solomon received a cargo of gold, silver, sandalwood, pearls, ivory, apes, and peacocks from Ophir every three years. The gold, silver, pearls, ivory and apes could have come from any of the locations (excluding the Americas) that are most often proposed. But sandalwood and peacocks are more tricky. The cautious side of me picks a location on the Arabian Peninsula, but peacocks in Arabia? Also, the account states that a roundtrip to Ophir took three years. This, in my mind, suggests a location that is more distant than any location on the Arabian Peninsula. The peacocks and sandalwood strongly suggests an Indian source, although the Congo apparently had a type of peacock. The Nubians regularly supplied exotic animals and products to the Egyptians such as leopard skins and ivory. The Arabians could have done the same. Some place Ophir on the the East side of Arabia, which would have been a known port of call for trade to Mesopotamia. Peacocks would not have been that unusual of a trade item for the uppercrust. Asian elephants could also have supplied the ivory. We know Solomon's court had contact with the Sabaeans, so I still favor ophir being a mine on the Red Sea side, but the ships may have gone further to pick up other trade items. The three year thing is perhaps just the period of time another trade fleet was typically sent out. The Israelites had olive oil and wine, which were also prized trade items. You don't read about it much in the Bible, but other countries were always after their olive oil. It was a source of wealth. 1
Rajah Manchou Posted February 12, 2018 Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) 19 hours ago, talltimber said: Some day every believer in the Book of Mormon will accept that the land of Nephi is the land around Cuzco, Peru. At least CONSIDER the evidence: https://goo.gl/fP1yCS [To go to the next Part in this 33 part series use the Menu on the right side of the webpage.] There are a lot of things I like about Del's model, but the geography just doesn't line up. I know his solution is to submerge the entire South American continent to make it an island that fits the description in the Book of Mormon, but there are too many complications with that. I don't think we need to radically manipulate the continental plates to explain the Book of Mormon. Edited February 12, 2018 by Rajah Manchou 2
cdowis Posted February 12, 2018 Posted February 12, 2018 On 2/9/2018 at 7:45 PM, Bernard Gui said: It would be nice if there were some evidence of that. Ask the Spanish invaders who sent everything of value to Spain.
clarkgoble Posted February 12, 2018 Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) On 2/10/2018 at 1:16 AM, Bernard Gui said: How did you figure that timeline? Nephi said they found the materials, not traded for them. Technically he merely says they were in abundance and not how they were in abundance. It's hard to know what the materials were. The most natural approach is to assume KJV is quoted. In that case steel is a kind of brass minus the zinc. But brass is also mentioned although in the KJV that refers to copper. i.e. Deut. 8:9. Iron is a bit of a problem, although Nephi may list it because David prepared it for the Temple. There appears to be some parallel between 2 Ne 5:15 and 1 Chronicles 29:7. It sounds like iron was used for door hinges. (See 1 Chron 22:3) It's worth noting that most of the archaeological finds including the big city announcement are classic era. The era of most concern for the Nephites is the preclassical era. We don't know how Nephi built the temple, but we do know that many ANE construction methods appear unknown in mesoamerica. Most construction is pueblos. The rich tended to have nice pueblos or stone buildings while the poor used wood and thatch but those tended to not be preserved. This passage is among the most difficult to explain in the Book of Mormon - primarily due to discussing metal and then saying he made many swords modeled on Laban's. Later post-Mosiah1 passages likely can be explained as traditional mesoAmerican weapons. 2 Ne 5:14 can't be explained away as easily. Edited February 12, 2018 by clarkgoble
talltimber Posted March 10, 2018 Posted March 10, 2018 On 2/12/2018 at 4:53 AM, Rajah Manchou said: There are a lot of things I like about Del's model, but the geography just doesn't line up. I know his solution is to submerge the entire South American continent to make it an island that fits the description in the Book of Mormon, but there are too many complications with that. I don't think we need to radically manipulate the continental plates to explain the Book of Mormon. I find the Mesoamerica North-South 148 mile wide "narrow neck of land" far more unbelievable than the scientific accepted rise of the Andes at the time of Christ instead of much longer back.
Calm Posted March 10, 2018 Posted March 10, 2018 1 hour ago, talltimber said: the scientific accepted rise of the Andes at the time of Christ CFR (call for reference if you are unfamiliar with this, means you have to provide sources for this claim)
Rajah Manchou Posted March 11, 2018 Posted March 11, 2018 2 hours ago, talltimber said: I find the Mesoamerica North-South 148 mile wide "narrow neck of land" far more unbelievable than the scientific accepted rise of the Andes at the time of Christ instead of much longer back. I don't like to battle Book of Mormon geography models against each other. But in my opinion, neither match the internal geography.
cdowis Posted March 11, 2018 Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) On 2/10/2018 at 3:16 AM, Bernard Gui said: How did you figure that timeline? Nephi said they found the materials, not traded for them. find == to locate, attain, or obtain by search or effort:to find an apartment I find something in the store, find a store that sells it, and purchase to acquire it. First you find it, and then you buy/trade. I locate a source for gold, someone who is a trader of gold, and then buy/barter it. Edited March 11, 2018 by cdowis
Bernard Gui Posted March 11, 2018 Author Posted March 11, 2018 15 hours ago, cdowis said: find == to locate, attain, or obtain by search or effort:to find an apartment I find something in the store, find a store that sells it, and purchase to acquire it. First you find it, and then you buy/trade. I locate a source for gold, someone who is a trader of gold, and then buy/barter it. Is there any evidence they obtained these materials by trade? If so, that would conclusively prove they had contact with others.
cdowis Posted March 11, 2018 Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Is there any evidence they obtained these materials by trade? If so, that would conclusively prove they had contact with others. I am not in the business of proving anything -->> I simply point out alternatives to the "there is only one explanation" argument. The "others" are explicitly referred to in 1 Ne 18:25, as well as archaeological evidence. Edited March 11, 2018 by cdowis
Bernard Gui Posted March 12, 2018 Author Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, cdowis said: I am not in the business of proving anything -->> I simply point out alternatives to the "there is only one explanation" argument. The "others" are explicitly referred to in 1 Ne 18:25, as well as archaeological evidence. Oh. I thought that if they obtained metals by trade, that would be textual evidence there was someone else out there to trade with. Trading among themselves would not be helpful. Nothing more than that. Edited March 12, 2018 by Bernard Gui
cdowis Posted March 12, 2018 Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Oh. I thought that if they obtained metals by trade, that would be textual evidence there was someone else out there to trade with. Trading among themselves would not be helpful. Nothing more than that. The Maya began trading in the Pre-Classic period, about 300 BC, and continued to do so with increasing enthusiasm throughout the Classic period (A.D. 250-900). Trade intensified even in the Post-Classic period, when the culture was in decline, and only stopped completely when the Maya themselves ceased to exist as a political entity. The Maya traded both luxury items and objects designed for everyday use: feathers, gold, jade, amber and quartz, honey, animal pelts, manta, vegetable dyes, copal incense, herbal medicines, dried chile peppers and household ceramics. http://www.mayankids.com/mmkpeople/mksailing.htm See also https://www.historyonthenet.com/maya-merchants-and-traders/ Edited March 12, 2018 by cdowis
Bernard Gui Posted March 12, 2018 Author Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) 59 minutes ago, cdowis said: The Maya began trading in the Pre-Classic period, about 300 BC, and continued to do so with increasing enthusiasm throughout the Classic period (A.D. 250-900). Trade intensified even in the Post-Classic period, when the culture was in decline, and only stopped completely when the Maya themselves ceased to exist as a political entity. The Maya traded both luxury items and objects designed for everyday use: feathers, gold, jade, amber and quartz, honey, animal pelts, manta, vegetable dyes, copal incense, herbal medicines, dried chile peppers and household ceramics. http://www.mayankids.com/mmkpeople/mksailing.htm See also https://www.historyonthenet.com/maya-merchants-and-traders/ All well and good, as it should be. My point is that there is no textual evidence of trade with outsiders in 2 Nephi. Edited March 12, 2018 by Bernard Gui
cdowis Posted March 12, 2018 Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: All well and good, as it should be. My point is that there is no textual evidence of trade with outsiders in 2 Nephi. Not being sarcastic, but may I suggest that you carefully read the Book of Mormon. My point is that such information would be on the Large Plates. 1Ne 6 [6] Wherefore, I shall give commandment unto my seed, that they shall not occupy these plates with things which are not of worth unto the children of men. 1 Nephi 9 [1] And all these things did my father see, and hear, and speak, as he dwelt in a tent, in the valley of Lemuel, and also a great many more things, which cannot be written upon these plates. [2] And now, as I have spoken concerning these plates, behold they are not the plates upon which I make a full account of the history of my people; for the plates upon which I make a full account of my people I have given the name of Nephi; wherefore, they are called the plates of Nephi, after mine own name; and these plates also are called the plates of Nephi. [3] Nevertheless, I have received a commandment of the Lord that I should make these plates, for the special purpose that there should be an account engraven of the ministry of my people. Edited March 12, 2018 by cdowis
Bernard Gui Posted March 12, 2018 Author Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, cdowis said: Not being sarcastic, but may I suggest that you carefully read the Book of Mormon. My point is that such information would be on the Large Plates. 1Ne 6 [6] Wherefore, I shall give commandment unto my seed, that they shall not occupy these plates with things which are not of worth unto the children of men. 1 Nephi 9 [1] And all these things did my father see, and hear, and speak, as he dwelt in a tent, in the valley of Lemuel, and also a great many more things, which cannot be written upon these plates. [2] And now, as I have spoken concerning these plates, behold they are not the plates upon which I make a full account of the history of my people; for the plates upon which I make a full account of my people I have given the name of Nephi; wherefore, they are called the plates of Nephi, after mine own name; and these plates also are called the plates of Nephi. [3] Nevertheless, I have received a commandment of the Lord that I should make these plates, for the special purpose that there should be an account engraven of the ministry of my people. I’m familiar with that passage, but as my old great-great-uncle Gazpaccio used to say, “If we had some bacon we could have bacon and eggs, but we don’t have any eggs.” Edited March 12, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1
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