Divine Love Is Conditional

[Gray]

14 hours ago, Freedom said:

None of these references contradict the notion of love being conditional. I can have unfailing and everlasting money, but that does not mean you are getting any of it. His love is everlasting, but us benefiting from it is not unconditional. If you want his everlasting love, you need to keep his commandments 

Of course they contradict the notion of love being conditional. God's love is not everlasting if he withdraws it from some based on behavior. And no one will behave righteously all the time.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Gray

[pogi]

16 minutes ago, Gray said:

Of course they contradict the notion of love being conditional. God's love is not everlasting if he withdraws it from some based on behavior. And no one will behave righteously all the time.

Parable of the prodigal son.  No one has yet attempted to address this parable.  What does this tell you about our Father's love?  This parable clearly demonstrates the multifaceted and multidimensional aspects of God's expression and experience of love for his children.  You are oversimplifying love to be an either-or thing.  This parable clearly shows that his love is both everlasting (in his feeling of love for his son) and conditional (in his full expression of his love for his son). Clear as day.

 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, USU78 said:

True enough.  Is there a point at which a change in degree become a change in kind, such that the Son of the Morning becomes no son at all?  Interesting notion.

I suspect so but I am in very speculative waters.

[Gray]

50 minutes ago, pogi said:

Parable of the prodigal son.  No one has yet attempted to address this parable.  What does this tell you about our Father's love?  This parable clearly demonstrates the multifaceted and multidimensional aspects of God's expression and experience of love for his children.  You are oversimplifying love to be an either-or thing.  This parable clearly shows that his love is both everlasting (in his feeling of love for his son) and conditional (in his full expression of his love for his son). Clear as day.

 

The father's love in the parable is not conditional.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

The father's love in the parable is not conditional.

Not when you consider the verb form of love.  Again, you are oversimplifying love to a singular feeling.

Is hugging and kissing not loving? Is giving gifts of the best robe, ring, and sandals not loving?   Is killing the fattened calf and throwing a feast and celebration not loving?  Were these expressions and experiences of love not conditional upon the son returning?  The father could not have loved (verb) his son in the same way if he did not return. 

The father's love transformed from something he simply felt into something that he was conditionally able to express and give in greater portion to his son upon his returning.  He became able to love his son more fully; in the way that he always wanted to.  The way that God is able to love us is conditional.  He will not force the full expression of his love on us, but gives it proportionally and conditionally to our level openness and receptiveness.  He will not violate our boundaries or force the full expression of his love upon us.  He loves (verb) us in degrees as we are able to accept it.  It is not an all or nothing thing.  We are loved in a more intimate way when our hearts are open and receiving. 

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I'm probably alone here on this.  I have no desire at all, as far as I've tried dig into myself to uncover it, to seek God's love.  I figure he either loves me and cares about me or not.  That's not to say I don't want to do good.  I realize though, when I seek to do something good, it is never to win the love of God.  It is normally because I want to love other people, and learn to love them, almost always.  Other times it is to win praise from others perhaps.  

This idea that God's love is conditional doesn't resonate with me at all, even considering the whole of his talk.  I don't get why Pres Nelson or any of them brethren want others to feel like they have to seek "higher levels of" God's love, as if members should see themselves as particularly special.  

Interesting point. 

Maybe one must think that way to expend the dedication necessary to become a GA.

For me seven or eight hours of church on a Sunday is quite enough.   but seriously I know that real leaders do more than that. Perhaps that is the motivation that drives them.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by mfbukowski

[USU78]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

If his love is conditional, then some of his children will have fallen short of those conditions, yes? Ergo He no longer loves them.

If his love is a metaphor for something else, like mercy, or divine favor, then it's a different discussion.

I'm confused by this argument. "This is my work and my glory ..." implies a God Who suppresses or overcomes ego for the benefit of infinitely inferior others. Such a being isn't dissuaded from His love of those others when those others misbehave. It's a ludicrous notion.

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Not when you consider the verb form of love.  Again, you are oversimplifying love to a singular feeling.

Is hugging and kissing not loving? Is giving gifts of the best robe, ring, and sandals not loving?   Is killing the fattened calf and throwing a feast and celebration not loving?  Were these expressions and experiences of love not conditional upon the son returning?  The father could not have loved (verb) his son in the same way if he did not return. 

The father's love transformed from something he simply felt into something that he was conditionally able to express and give in greater portion to his son upon his returning.  He became able to love his son more fully; in the way that he always wanted to.  The way that God is able to love us is conditional.  He will not force the full expression of his love on us, but gives it proportionally and conditionally to our level openness and receptiveness.  He will not violate our boundaries or force the full expression of his love upon us.  He loves (verb) us in degrees as we are able to accept it.  It is not an all or nothing thing.  We are loved in a more intimate way when our hearts are open and receiving. 

 

Again, absolutely splendid.

[hope_for_things]

On 1/18/2018 at 11:26 AM, Investigator said:

In a 2003 Ensign article, then Elder Nelson characterized God's love as conditional. How can God’s love be infinite if it is bounded or limited by conditions? How can God’s love be enduring if it cannot endure sin or disobedience? How can it be universal if it excludes those you don’t approve of? How can it be perfect if it is less reliable than the love of good children for abusive parents or that of good parents for errant children?  I don't believe God's love for us changes based upon our behavior. I certainly hope President Nelson's view on that topic has changed since then.

 

Here is a link to the article.

2003 Ensign Article "Divine Love"

I’d prefer to believe in an unconditionally loving God.  That’s the kind of aspirational belief I can aspire to.  However for all practical purposes it seems this scripture in Matthew 5:45 has the most relevance.  

 

“That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.”

 

So regardless of how we act or what kind of a loving God we envision, good and evil is part of this life’s journey for everyone. 

[carbon dioxide]

On 1/18/2018 at 12:20 PM, pogi said:

In other words, God's love is infinite and universal, but our experience of God's love is conditional upon us accepting it.  God's arms are always extended towards us (all of us) in love, the conditional part is whether or not we will turn towards him.   

I like that.  It is like a man who is in a river who needs to be rescued from danger.  A man on the river (God) extends his hand to the man in the river to save him.  The man in the river still has to choose to extend his hand back to be saved.  If the man chooses not to accept the offer made by the man (God) who is their to rescue him, the man will not be saved.  God does not damn anyone as much as we damn ourselves because we refuse to reach out to Him and accept his way.  When we want to do things our way, then we reap the rewards and consequences of that. 

[carbon dioxide]

7 hours ago, Teancum said:

I love my children no matter what they do.  Whether they obey me or don't.  I may not like what they do and at times not like them.  But I always love them.  Apparently my love is a higher level of love than God's since God demands submission before God loves us.

So you say but that might not always be the case.   I love my kids  and would die for them if required BUT there are things they could do that could end that love.  For example if my older son was to kill my younger son out of some personal need he had,  the love that I have for my older son would be destroyed.  If not completely destroyed, at least altered to the point that the relationship would never be repaired.  God loves everyone.  I think he still even might have some particle of love for Satan.  However simply being loved by God is not enough to receive a reward.  Especially one as great as exaltation.  God does require something of us.  A billionaire may love all of his kids but it would not be wrong for the billionaire to leave the lion share of his wealth to the kids who deserve it and have made good choices.  He probably will not give much to the kid who is a drug addict or gets in trouble with the law.

[Eek!]

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 2:53 PM, Teancum said:

I love my children no matter what they do.  Whether they obey me or don't.  I may not like what they do and at times not like them.  But I always love them. 

I agree with you 100% brother.   There is nothing that any of my kids could ever do that would make me say, "I never want to see you again".   And to all outward appearances, one of them has tested that thinking to an extreme that I won't describe here.  Everyone else in the family chose to sever all ties with him, but that is something I never considered.  And yes, I respect the choice of the others.   

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 2:53 PM, Teancum said:

 Apparently my love is a higher level of love than God's since God demands submission before God loves us.

Not everything that made it into the scriptures is the highest thought of God on a given subject.  There are different levels of teaching, different degrees of light, and what was light from one vantage point may not be from another.  

Imo a pretty good rule of thumb is, "Always follow the highest that you know".  For a while the highest that you know may be a religion or a holy book, but at some point you recognize discrepancies between what these outside voices are telling you and what you know in your own soul.   Kudos to you for following your own soul and choosing unconditional love over apparent scriptural authority that seems to say otherwise. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by Eek!

[Gray]

On 1/19/2018 at 5:10 PM, pogi said:

Not when you consider the verb form of love.  Again, you are oversimplifying love to a singular feeling.

Is hugging and kissing not loving? Is giving gifts of the best robe, ring, and sandals not loving?   Is killing the fattened calf and throwing a feast and celebration not loving?  Were these expressions and experiences of love not conditional upon the son returning?  The father could not have loved (verb) his son in the same way if he did not return. 

The father's love transformed from something he simply felt into something that he was conditionally able to express and give in greater portion to his son upon his returning.  He became able to love his son more fully; in the way that he always wanted to.  The way that God is able to love us is conditional.  He will not force the full expression of his love on us, but gives it proportionally and conditionally to our level openness and receptiveness.  He will not violate our boundaries or force the full expression of his love upon us.  He loves (verb) us in degrees as we are able to accept it.  It is not an all or nothing thing.  We are loved in a more intimate way when our hearts are open and receiving. 

 

So I guess my parents don't love me anymore since I got married and moved away? Except when I call home, then they love me again?

This is convoluted.

[Gray]

On 1/19/2018 at 6:12 PM, USU78 said:

I'm confused by this argument. "This is my work and my glory ..." implies a God Who suppresses or overcomes ego for the benefit of infinitely inferior others. Such a being isn't dissuaded from His love of those others when those others misbehave. It's a ludicrous notion.

Yes, I agree.

It's a strange idea that God would expect us fallible mortals to love each other unconditionally (ie love your enemies) and yet He doesn't love us unconditionally.

[stemelbow]

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 12:56 PM, pogi said:

I was responding to this:

And your earlier comment in another thread, using words like "elitism" and "self-aggrandizing" to describe those who seek Gods blessings.  You are continuing that pattern here.

 

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 12:56 PM, pogi said:

I am not condemning you stem, but as one who does seek God's blessings, and wishes to connect with God on "higher levels", I feel judged by you.  For some reason I can't comprehend, you seem to think that I seek his blessings and loving connection to place myself above my brother and sister.  It has nothing to do about anyone but me and God.  No need to feel threatened or judge me for my very personal relationship with God. 

I'm saying it doesn't work for me.  I don't like it, so I dont' view things that way.  If it works for you, more power to you.  I don't know how you view things the way described by Pres Nelson and not walk away feeling elite.  If it works for you fine, though.  Don't feel judged.  I've made no judgment about you or another, personally.  I've judged the words and ideas expressed and rejected them and said why.  

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 12:56 PM, pogi said:

I am not condemning anyone.  You are misreading me here.  I am referring to Lehi's dream.  I am not claiming to know the heart of any man, I am not saying that anyone specifically is in the great and spacious building.  I am simply pointing out that many who stop feeling after God can end up there.  Leave those who are feeling after God by progressively moving forward in his word (the iron rod) towards the tree of life (love of God), alone.

I'm willing to drop that.  

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 12:56 PM, pogi said:

Yep, I've seen them too.  Therefore, what?

It's evidence of what I'm talking about.  

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 12:56 PM, pogi said:

Me too.  

Don't assume that those who seek God's love and blessings are doing so in a spirit of judgment and comparison.  To judge and compare is to be off the path.  My relationship with God is personal.  It has nothing to do with comparing my position against my neighbors who's heart I can't know and judge. 

Very good for you.  I've not suggested otherwise.  I've said it doesn't work for me and also have suggested I don't know how it works for others, as I've been unable to make it work.  

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

So I guess my parents don't love me anymore since I got married and moved away? Except when I call home, then they love me again?

This is convoluted.

Ummm...what?

Communication is clearly not working here. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I don't know how you view things the way described by Pres Nelson and not walk away feeling elite. 

It's really easy.  Personal progress is personal.  It is not about comparing yourself to others.

[HappyJackWagon]

Many Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christian. When I've challenged friends on this they inevitably come back to the idea that we worship a "different" God. We don't follow the "same" Jesus. I believe what they are really trying to say is that our understanding of the attributes of God are so different than who they understand God to be, that they just don't recognize Him in our religion. I think a big piece of that is this discussion we're having on this thread. We can't even agree on whether or not God's love is, or should be, unconditional. I think most Christians would find this conversation absurd, solidifying their belief that Mormons are not Christian.

[pogi]

48 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Many Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christian. When I've challenged friends on this they inevitably come back to the idea that we worship a "different" God. We don't follow the "same" Jesus. I believe what they are really trying to say is that our understanding of the attributes of God are so different than who they understand God to be, that they just don't recognize Him in our religion. I think a big piece of that is this discussion we're having on this thread. We can't even agree on whether or not God's love is, or should be, unconditional. I think most Christians would find this conversation absurd, solidifying their belief that Mormons are not Christian.

That simply is not the case.  The only reason they don't view us as Christians is because we don't accept their creeds. 

There are many "Chrsitians", both Catholic and protestant who agree that God's feeling of love for us is universal, but that that the way he loves (verb) us is conditional and proportional to our accepting it. 

Protestant - I particularly like this part:

Quote

 

[God] gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. (James 4:6–8)

But let us also declare the biblical truth that the fullest and sweetest experiences of the grace of God and the nearness of God will be enjoyed by those who daily humble themselves and draw near to God.

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/is-god-s-love-conditi

 

Catholic:

http://www.seatofwisdomjournal.org/uploads/Faculty_Essay_by_Hoonhout_-_The_Conditional_Love_of_God_-_Final.pdf

http://www.romancatholicism.co.uk/godsconditionallove.html

Edited January 22, 2018 by pogi

[Gray]

43 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Many Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christian. When I've challenged friends on this they inevitably come back to the idea that we worship a "different" God. We don't follow the "same" Jesus. I believe what they are really trying to say is that our understanding of the attributes of God are so different than who they understand God to be, that they just don't recognize Him in our religion. I think a big piece of that is this discussion we're having on this thread. We can't even agree on whether or not God's love is, or should be, unconditional. I think most Christians would find this conversation absurd, solidifying their belief that Mormons are not Christian.

I think when the rubber hits the road many Christians are not as orthodox as their marketing would suggest.

I do agree that orthodox Christianity is very different from Mormonism. But orthodoxy didn't exist until the third century anyway, and everything before that is a mess of competing, evolving theologies. And of course it continues to evolve, just like Mormonism has.

[pogi]

14 hours ago, Eek! said:

I agree with you 100% brother.   There is nothing that any of my kids could ever do that would make me say, "I never want to see you again".   And to all outward appearances, one of them has tested that thinking to an extreme that I won't describe here.  Everyone else in the family chose to sever all ties with him, but that is something I never considered.  And yes, I respect the choice of the others.   

Not everything that made it into the scriptures is the highest thought of God on a given subject.  There are different levels of teaching, different degrees of light, and what was light from one vantage point may not be from another.  

Imo a pretty good rule of thumb is, "Always follow the highest that you know".  For a while the highest that you know may be a religion or a holy book, but at some point you recognize discrepancies between what these outside voices are telling you and what you know in your own soul.   Kudos to you for following your own soul and choosing unconditional love over apparent scriptural authority that seems to say otherwise. 

There tends to be a common misunderstanding that love is simply a feeling and not also verb.  Would you agree that your child who has tested you to an extreme has missed out on higher levels of intimacy due to their level of openness, trustworthiness, vulnerability, etc., or lack thereof?  Would you agree that those levels of intimacy are only possible upon their desire and work towards reconciliation?  Isn't the relationship and mutual experience and expression of love a two way street?  Even though you may wish to see your child more or love them in a different way, would you agree that it is important for you to respect your child's boundaries and not force on them the love you want to give them?  And because of their boundaries and level of willingness to work on a healthy relationship, your experience of loving them (the verb) may be hampered, correct?

I agree that there are different degrees and levels of light. That light emanates from God.  To know and experience that light, is to know God.  Higher levels of light equates to higher levels of intimacy with God.  Higher levels of intimacy is a higher experience (not just the feeling) of love for both parties.  As Christ said, "I am the light of the world".  Therefore Christ (like light) is experienced in differing degrees conditionally.  Those who follow after him are promised that they will not walk in darkness, those who don't have no such promise.  Our relationship with Him (love as a verb) is therefore conditional and on a spectrum.  It is not all or nothing as many here like to imagine. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by pogi

[Storm Rider]

On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 1:53 PM, Gray said:

Meh. We all know we can find passages to support either position, or reinterpret the same passage two ways to support two positions.

Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying: I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with loving-kindness.

Psalm 52:8b I trust in God’s unfailing love for ever and ever.

Psalm 136:2 Give thanks to the God of gods. His love endures forever.

John is a frequently used source in the above, seeming to suggest that God only loves those who keep the commandments. Meaning God loves Jesus alone and no one else?

Context is everything when reading scripture.  In every one of the scriptures you cited the speaker is striving to keep God's commandments - not a single one of them is a nonbeliever that is not seeking to keep the commandments of God.  The scriptures that you want to denude of all meaning - those that caution that keeping the commandments is part of the gospel of Jesus Christ - is speaking directly to those who choose not to keep the commandments.  The chasm between the two subjects are polar opposites.  

[Gray]

5 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Context is everything when reading scripture.  In every one of the scriptures you cited the speaker is striving to keep God's commandments - not a single one of them is a nonbeliever that is not seeking to keep the commandments of God.  The scriptures that you want to denude of all meaning - those that caution that keeping the commandments is part of the gospel of Jesus Christ - is speaking directly to those who choose not to keep the commandments.  The chasm between the two subjects are polar opposites.  

Additional context doesn't support your conclusion any better than mine. The fact is there are varying opinions about the matter in scripture. I suspect what is often meant by "love" is actually divine favor. Israel fell on hard times, so it fell to prophets to explain why the chosen people should be a conquered people. Usually the explanation was that they were being punished for sin.

[pogi]

9 minutes ago, Gray said:

Additional context doesn't support your conclusion any better than mine. The fact is there are varying opinions about the matter in scripture. I suspect what is often meant by "love" is actually divine favor. Israel fell on hard times, so it fell to prophets to explain why the chosen people should be a conquered people. Usually the explanation was that they were being punished for sin.

Or, it could be that those passages are speaking of God's feeling of love and not the verb to love.  The differing opinions in scripture about God's love might be cleared up with a proper understanding of different types of love.  Unfortunately, the English language only uses one word to describe something that is much more complex and nuanced, and deserving of more words then simply "love".  There really should be a different word for the verb "love" from the feeling "love", and we should further divide it between the types and shades of love, like the Greeks do: Eros, Philia, Ludus, Agape, Pragma, Philautia.

The meaning of these versus are likely lost in translation, when we only have 1 word (love) for what could be better describes in 12 different words (the verb and feeling forms of each of the six Greek words for love).

[Bobbieaware]

4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Many Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christian. When I've challenged friends on this they inevitably come back to the idea that we worship a "different" God. We don't follow the "same" Jesus. I believe what they are really trying to say is that our understanding of the attributes of God are so different than who they understand God to be, that they just don't recognize Him in our religion. I think a big piece of that is this discussion we're having on this thread. We can't even agree on whether or not God's love is, or should be, unconditional. I think most Christians would find this conversation absurd, solidifying their belief that Mormons are not Christian.

I don’t think we have to be concerned some non-LDS Christins are going to think more poorly of the Latter-day Saints because a few progressive members of the Church stubbornly refuse to acknowledge Jesus plainly taught God is better able to EXPRESS the perfect love he feels for each of us through the means of loving, healthy parent- child relationships with him, relationships that can only be made effectual when individuals choose to sincerely love, honor and serve him. 

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, IF a man love me, he WILL keep my words: and my Father WILL love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (John 14)

The words of the Savior  placed in bold speak to the loving, healthy parent-child relationships with God I referred to above. Additionally, note that this specific kind of loving familial relationship with the Father and the Son doesn’t become ia reality until one chooses to love Christ and keep his commandments. This is the critically Important gospel principle President Nelson is teaching us in his Ensign article, and for reasons that are beyond me it seems some here here are incapable of acknowledging it..The Savior spoke these words so why not deal with them without defecting or pretending they were never said.

Finally, when it comes to love, I’m more than willing to compare the God of the Latter-day Saints with the God of historical Christianity. I personally would find it impossible to worship a God of purported perfect love who sends the majority of the human race to the unspeakable horors of an endless hell because, in spite of his apparent perfect love, wisdom and knowledge, he can’t seem to figure out a way to make sure all his children get the chance to hear, fully understand and embrace the gospel of salvation before the day of final judgement.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2018 by Bobbieaware