New First Presidency

[MDalby]

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

But by any standard the removal of Elder Uchtdorf is a change from a very long precedent.  The reasons will likely be debated for years to come.
 

When was the last time a counselor was not retained in the incoming First Presidency?

[ksfisher]

Perhaps we should entertain the idea that it was the Lord, whom we believe to be the head of the church, who is behind these changes.

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm surprised by how upset Elder Uctdorf looks during the whole broadcast.  There was a point or two when he seemed to have tried to brave a smile, but it really looked forced.  The moment wherein Holland seemingly reaches over to console Uctdorf was a bit awkward looking.  

the humanness is quite palpable here.

But Oaks and Nelson look as giddy as oaks did when he and Ballard announced they plan to answer the kids questions some months back.  

 

 

"Pres." Ballard and Pres. Eyring both looked stunned, I am quite sure Pres. Ballard was not anticipating that!

[CMZ]

3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm hearing this same idea that Oaks was chosen because he was next in line in social media right now, but what evidence do we have to support that idea?  Are there others in the past who've been chosen when they were next in line for the presidency? 

I do agree that he likely aligns with Nelson ideologically more on orthodoxy.  My use of the words punishment or reward are ways of expressing that same idea, people are rewarded when their personalities are synced up and people are punished when they don't align well.  I see those as just natural consequences for the realities of working with people.  

Agree with you that this is a departure from precedent.  Wish we could see the power play behind the scenes look.  I know from reading history that there have been very strong power plays and disagreements within the quorum in the past, and I suspect that those same dynamics are at play today because this is human nature.  

 

Oaks has also said a number of "liberal" things in his career/ministry.

And if people perceive going back into the Quorum of the Twelve as a "punishment" then the solution is for them to come to a greater and deeper understanding of gospel principles.

[Duncan]

Just now, MDalby said:

When was the last time a counselor was not retained in the incoming First Presidency?

Pres. Romney was not re called when Pres. Benson came to the helm

[Bobbieaware]

18 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

So saddened by losing Elder Uchtdorf in the presidency.  This is not a good sign for the progressives in the church like me.   Here is my suspicion on what just happened.  

1.  I think Elder Oaks "earned" this promotion through his vocal and ardent articulation on the LGBT topic and on women and the priesthood, and I think Nelson rewarded and promoted him accordingly.  

2. I suspect that Elder Uchtdorf was vocal behind the scenes with concerns about the LGBT policy and possibly other issues, and I think Nelson and others interpreted his concerns as disloyalty.  

This news today has me greatly saddened.  I see this as retrenchment and a move in the wrong direction.  

What actual evidence do you have the President Uchtdorf leans in the direction of gay marriage for Church members and the sealing of gay marriages in the temple?

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, Bobbieaware said:

What actual evidence do you have the President Uchtdorf leans in the direction of gay marriage for Church members and the sealing of gay marriages in the temple?

I don't think you read that very carefully.  

[CMZ]

1 minute ago, Bobbieaware said:

What actual evidence do you have the President Uchtdorf leans in the direction of gay marriage for Church members and the sealing of gay marriages in the temple?

I think people presume he feels that way because he tends to talk a lot about loving everyone despite their differences. But it's not totally unlike Oaks to say the same things.

[hope_for_things]

1 minute ago, CMZ said:

Oaks has also said a number of "liberal" things in his career/ministry.

And if people perceive going back into the Quorum of the Twelve as a "punishment" then the solution is for them to come to a greater and deeper understanding of gospel principles.

I'm looking for silver lining, so could you please remind me of some of the more liberal things Oaks has said in the past?  I'm struggling with this and could use a little pick me up.   

I see it as punishment because of the precedent for retaining counselors (yes with a few minor exceptions).  The influence of a first presidency member vs someone in the quorum of the 12 is significant.  

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, MDalby said:

When was the last time a counselor was not retained in the incoming First Presidency?

30 years ago - President Romney due to ill health.

Then 40 years ago - President Brown, possibly due to disagreement with President Lee on the Priesthood ban.

[hope_for_things]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Pres. Romney was not re called when Pres. Benson came to the helm

I've read that this was more health related than anything else.  Do we have other reasons to besides health to suspect that he wasn't retained in the Romney case?  

[CMZ]

7 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm surprised by how upset Elder Uctdorf looks during the whole broadcast.  There was a point or two when he seemed to have tried to brave a smile, but it really looked forced.  The moment wherein Holland seemingly reaches over to console Uctdorf was a bit awkward looking.  

the humanness is quite palpable here.

We don't know the reasoning behind why they looked the way they did. Maybe they are all just fine with how things turned out and are just bracing themselves for all the comments that will likely come from people who concoct reasons for what happened.

[Duncan]

Just now, hope_for_things said:

I've read that this was more health related than anything else.  Do we have other reasons to besides health to suspect that he wasn't retained in the Romney case?  

I'm almost 100% sure it was health related! and I think the same thing with Pres. Brown, IIRC he talks about it briefly in his autobiography, he didn't like it but he understand

[CMZ]

1 minute ago, hope_for_things said:

I've read that this was more health related than anything else.  Do we have other reasons to besides health to suspect that he wasn't retained in the Romney case?  

In Romney's case it was very likely health reasons. But Duncan just answered when someone asked what the last instance was of a counselor not being retained in the First Presidency.

 

[hope_for_things]

4 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

What actual evidence do you have the President Uchtdorf leans in the direction of gay marriage for Church members and the sealing of gay marriages in the temple?

Please don't try to make this a strawman, I didn't say anything you just stated. 

As for evidence that he's more empathetic and moderate on LGBT issues, this is my opinion based on my observations of his tone and temperament in general.  I honestly can't think of any specifics at the moment.  

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

With respect, I think any notion of any sort of a rift in the First Presidency, in the Quorum of the Twelve, or in those Quorums unitedly is pure poppycock!

I think it's poppycock to make assertions like these based on fuzzy feelings.
You cannot put 15 men in a room talking about the gospel and find they agree on all points all the time.  Such an idea is beyond naive.
There may not be a rift (contention) but they still have minds.

[ksfisher]

6 minutes ago, Duncan said:

"Pres." Ballard and Pres. Eyring both looked stunned, I am quite sure Pres. Ballard was not anticipating that!

Not anticipating what?  All of these changes have been known since Sunday by the apostles.  There was nothing announced today that they hadn't discussed and approved beforehand.  Elder Christofferson made that clear at the beginning.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, CMZ said:

We don't know the reasoning behind why they looked the way they did. Maybe they are all just fine with how things turned out and are just bracing themselves for all the comments that will likely come from people who concoct reasons for what happened.

Anything is possible for sure.  He could have had an upset tummy too.  But my initial reaction is, he did not look happy about his demotion.  

[hope_for_things]

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I don't think you read that very carefully.  

Thanks, I didn't think my original comment said anything of that sort at all.  People sometimes intentionally misread things, but sometimes its an accident.  We'll see how Bobbieaware responds and whether his misunderstanding was intentional or not.  

[ALarson]

15 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Pres. Romney was not re called when Pres. Benson came to the helm

Because of his health.  Nothing like this has taken place since Hugh B. Brown was not retained as Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith's counselor (reportedly over disagreement on the priesthood ban mainly).

Edited January 16, 2018 by ALarson

[Kenngo1969]

7 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm hearing this same idea that Oaks was chosen because he was next in line in social media right now, but what evidence do we have to support that idea?  Are there others in the past who've been chosen when they were next in line for the presidency? [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.] 

Yes.  That has happened any time the second-most-senior Apostle has been called as a Counselor in the First Presidency, and it is a relatively frequent occurrence.  Presidents Rudger Clawson (1918-1921), Joseph Fielding Smith (1950-1951), Spencer W. Kimball (1970-1972), Howard W. Hunter (1985-1988), Boyd K. Packer (twice, 1994-1995 and 1995-2008), and now M. Russell Ballard, respectively, all have served as Acting Presidents of the Quorum of the Twelve.

[rockpond]

40 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I have suspected that there are in the GA's those who are more liberal in approach and those who are more conservative in approach.
Elder Uchtdorf and President Nelson I suspect have always been on opposite ends of the spectrum.

I don't think there is contention, but I suspect President Nelson chose President Oaks as someone with a similar ideological approach to the gospel, and potentially to prepare him to succeed (President Nelson being 93 after all).  I agree that this may be a minor PR challenge for the First Presidency, but it's not like Elder Uchtdorf has gone anywhere.  He will still speak at Conference, which is the only interaction most members have with most of the General Authorities.

 

Yep... It's not hard to compare the messages from Pres Uchtdorf and Pres Nelson and see that they have different approaches.  I agree with you that Pres Nelson likely selected someone who was more ideologically matched to him.

Does he now go by Elder Uchtdorf or does he keep the President title?  This is new territory.

While we will still hear from Pres Uchtdorf in GC, it will be with less frequency.

[Duncan]

4 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Not anticipating what?  All of these changes have been known since Sunday by the apostles.  There was nothing announced today that they hadn't discussed and approved beforehand.  Elder Christofferson made that clear at the beginning.

not like in the past couple of days but a month ago or earlier

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Oaks has also said a number of "liberal" things in his career/ministry.

 

Liberal compared to whom?

[Derl Sanderson]

Forgive me if I find all this amusing. I have no idea what it means that this First Presidency will "undoubtetdly be more orthodox and conservative in its approach than the previous" (presidency). If this is a reference to LGBT issues being more liberally thought of by Elder Uchtdorf than President Oaks, let me say that I just viewed all of President Oaks' statements over on mormonandgay.org and I'm just not seeing it.

And not that age is the final dictator of how things will turn out for Elder Uchtdorf, but I note that 77-year-old Elder Uchtdorf is preceded in the quorum by a 93-year-old, an 85-year-old, an 89-year-old, another 77-year-old, and an 84-year-old. I don't think we've heard "the last" of Elder Uchtdorf.

Who knows what the Lord has in store for these brethren? I'm old enough to recall that when Harold B. Lee died, media coverage focused for the most part on the very prominent and very controversial Ezra Taft Benson. Spencer Kimball was given comparatively little notice, as most considered that his poor health wouldn't leave him as Church President for very long and thus his accomplishments would be minor. How'd that turn out??? (If you wonder, read the second volume of his biography, Lengthen Your Stride by Edward Kimball -- one of the best biographies written on any Church president).

And then when ETB eventually became president and most were wringing their hands or rejoicing over his incredibly right-leaning political views, what became his hallmark and a major turning point in the history of our Church? His emphasis on the BOM. To me it's all amazing and wonderful and I look forward to trying to stay alive for awhile and see what the Lord will do next.

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by Derl Sanderson
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