Adam and Eve's marriage

[theplains]

According to the July 2015 Ensign article, "God's Plan for Families", Adam and Eve were 
not married until after they ate the forbidden fruit.

"President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972) explained: Marriage as established in the 
beginning was an eternal covenant. The first man and the first woman were not married 
until death should part them, for at that time death had not come into the world. The 
ceremony on that occasion was performed by the Eternal Father himself whose work 
endures forever."

I recall seeing a teaching by Joseph Smith which stated, "Now regarding Adam: He came 
here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and 
by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made 
mortal and subject to death."

Which statement is correct? Were Adam and Eve married on some other planet or on our
earth after the Fall?

Thanks,
Jim

[pogi]

35 minutes ago, theplains said:

According to the July 2015 Ensign article, "God's Plan for Families", Adam and Eve were 
not married until after they ate the forbidden fruit.

"President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972) explained: Marriage as established in the 
beginning was an eternal covenant. The first man and the first woman were not married 
until death should part them, for at that time death had not come into the world. The 
ceremony on that occasion was performed by the Eternal Father himself whose work 
endures forever."

I recall seeing a teaching by Joseph Smith which stated, "Now regarding Adam: He came 
here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and 
by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made 
mortal and subject to death."

Which statement is correct? Were Adam and Eve married on some other planet or on our
earth after the Fall?

Thanks,
Jim

The Joseph Smith quote above was recorded by Anson Call in Nauvoo and copied by Pat-riarch John M. Whitaker also of Nauvoo. B. H. Roberts, Church Historian years later made a copy from Patriarch Whitaker's copy. Joseph Smith; 1840- 1844 (Nauvoo days); c. 1844. 

In other words, it was the copy, of a copy, of hearsay, and seems to contradict another statement from Joseph:

Quote

 [Marriage is] an institution of heaven, first solemnized in the garden of Eden by God himself, by the authority of everlasting priesthood.

Bruce R. McConkie echoed that sentiment:

Quote

Before the Fall Eve was sealed to Adam in the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, a ceremony performed by the Lord before death entered the world and therefore one destined to last forever.

The ensign article does not state that the marriage was performed after the fall, but that it was performed in Eden, and therefore would have been before the fall.  It says:

Quote

A brief summary of Adam and Eve’s eternal marriage in Eden is found in Genesis 1:28, including the charge to “multiply, and replenish the earth.”

It then gives the quote of Joseph Fielding Smith listed above.  The quotes I gave of Joseph Smith and Bruce R. McKonkie seem to jive well with the quote of Joseph Fielding Smith.  That is the version that I subscribe to. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Which statement is correct? Were Adam and Eve married on some other planet or on our
earth after the Fall?

Why does it have to be one or the other?
Ceremonies can be performed more than once.

Genesis/Moses records the marriage of Adam and Eve by God (at least in Mormon understanding).

They also had a veil of forgetfulness placed upon them.  Perhaps that necessitated a reintroduction to each other.  

[MDalby]

Here are some quotes I have compiled on this topic.

 

Quote

Marriage as established in the beginning was an eternal covenant. The first man and the first woman were not married until death should part them, for at that time death had not come into the world. The ceremony on that occasion was performed by the Eternal Father himself whose work endures forever."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:71)
 

 

Quote

The first marriage was performed by God in the garden when Adam and Eve were not subject to death.
(Henry B. Eyring, Ensign, Sep 2008, 4 - 9)

 

Quote

The family is not an accident of mortality. It existed as an organizational unit in the heavens before the world was formed; historically, it started on earth with Adam and Eve, as recorded in Genesis. Adam and Eve were married and sealed for time and all eternity by the Lord, and as a result their family will exist eternally. 
(Robert D. Hales, “The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” in Dawn Hall Anderson, ed., Clothed with Charity: Talks from the 1996 Women’s Conference (1997), p.134)

 

Quote

And so we find the celestial order of marriage resorted to again in the meridian of time. From the earliest writings both defending and attacking Christianity, it is clear that the relationship between the sexes was something very special with them. Outsiders were shocked and scandalized, for example, by the promiscuity implied in the Christian practice of calling each other brother and sister- A more-than-ordinary emphasis on family life is apparent in the warnings of First Clement to the leaders of the church that they are neglecting to pay sufficient attention to their own families and the bringing up of their children in the church. The more recent discoveries of early Christian documents allow us insights into the nature of the teaching that incurred the wrathful criticism of an immoral age that did not understand it at all. Thus we learn in the Gospel of Philip and the Apocalypse of Adam how Adam and Eve were united in celestial union before the creation of the world but, upon descending to the earth, became separated, with death entering into the scene. Christ came to earth, says the Gospel of Philip, "for the express purpose of bringing them together in eternal life. Thanks to him those who are united in the Bridal Chamber will never more be separated." The ordinances here are symbolic, but the images are important models to be followed. Let us recall how often the Lord refers to himself as the Bridegroom. The symbols we have here are indeed meager compared with the perfect glory. The things we do in symbols merely hint at things as they are, "for there is glory above glory and power upon power .... The Holy of Holies and the Bridal Chamber, these are the ultimate .... Though sin still enslaves us, when the truth is revealed the perfect life will flow for everyone . . . that those who were separated may be united and fulfilled .... All who enter the Bridal Chamber may beget in the light--not after the manner of nocturnal mating .... Whoever becomes a Son of the Bridal Chamber will receive the light . . . and when he goes out of the world he shall already have received the true instruction through types and images."
(Hugh Nibley, Old Testament and Related Studies Chapter 5)

 

[clarkgoble]

Just to be fair, The Gospel of Philip is a gnostic text where such things are taken platonically. Reading it as a Mormon we swiftly assume that it is gnostics making use of an earlier tradition. However the text itself simply isn't talking about what Nibley has it saying. Of course the idea that Adam was originally a hermaphrodite composed of both male and female has a fairly strong idea. Splitting the celestial Adam thus creates a male Adam and female Eve. However in these texts this is taken in a mystic more platonic sense. Treating this as related to Mormon conceptions of marriage is perhaps a problematic take away beyond perhaps the idea that in heaven male and female were united. But again these texts didn't take this in the terms Mormons take them.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, theplains said:

...................................Which statement is correct? Were Adam and Eve married on some other planet or on our
earth after the Fall?..........................

Hi Jim.  Aside from the false Joseph Smith quote, Brigham and others have made it plain that Adam and Eve were brought as babes from another planet.  They were not created on Earth.  The Genesis Creation and Garden stories are temple liturgy in which the archetypal innocent "man" and "woman" (everyone is Adam & Eve in that liturgy) receive their endowments and are sealed together -- just as we do today.  It was the same ritual then as now.  We make a huge mistake if we think of the biblical event as separate and unique, and that we are copying that "first" event.  All dispensations and all cultures conventionalize that liturgical sequence to suit themselves, but the essential elements of it continue through time and on all planets into infinity.  There was no beginning; there shall be no end.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

Just to be fair, The Gospel of Philip is a gnostic text where such things are taken platonically. Reading it as a Mormon we swiftly assume that it is gnostics making use of an earlier tradition. However the text itself simply isn't talking about what Nibley has it saying. Of course the idea that Adam was originally a hermaphrodite composed of both male and female has a fairly strong idea. Splitting the celestial Adam thus creates a male Adam and female Eve. However in these texts this is taken in a mystic more platonic sense. Treating this as related to Mormon conceptions of marriage is perhaps a problematic take away beyond perhaps the idea that in heaven male and female were united. But again these texts didn't take this in the terms Mormons take them.

While it is true that the Gospel of Philip is a Valentinian Christian Gnostic sacramental catachesis dealing with initiation and sacred names, we should not gloss over the very real parallels discerned first by Hugh Nibley (Collected Works XII:54, on the five-stage set of ordinances at Gospel of Philip 67:27-30).  However, I always like to quote the non-Mormon scholars who provided the most important translation-commentary of it:

W. Isenberg, in Robinson, Nag Hammadi Literature in English, 3rd ed., p. 140, referred to the "five stages of a complete initiation," beginning with baptism by immersion:

1. baptism
2. chrism-anointing
3. eucharist-thanks
4. sote-ransom-redemption-salvation 
5. koiton-bridal chamber-Holy of Holies 

B. C. Barrois, "Gnosticism Reformed," Dialogue, 27/1 (Spring 1994):245-248, cited Irenaeus, 1:21, and 1:6:4, on redemption and the bridal chamber.  See also Maxwell E. Johnson, The Rites of Christian Initiation: Their Evolution and Interpretation (Liturgical Press, 1999/ 2007).

[clarkgoble]

6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

While it is true that the Gospel of Philip is a Valentinian Christian Gnostic sacramental catachesis dealing with initiation and sacred names, we should not gloss over the very real parallels discerned first by Hugh Nibley (Collected Works XII:54, on the five-stage set of ordinances at Gospel of Philip 67:27-30).  However, I always like to quote the non-Mormon scholars who provided the most important translation-commentary of it:

W. Isenberg, in Robinson, Nag Hammadi Literature in English, 3rd ed., p. 140, referred to the "five stages of a complete initiation," beginning with baptism by immersion:

Right, but that would be the remnants. These are interpreted platonically and mystically though rather in the form we take them. Don't get me wrong. I'm personally convinced they represent fragments of earlier authentic teaching and tradition twisted and converted into this more psychological/mystical process. The parallel of a bridal marriage in a mirrored room off the Holy of Holies is a bit too dead eye to be coincidence in my book. However we do have to be careful how we use it since the gnostics simply understood ritual quite differently than we do.

[Raymond Ellis]

There is a lot we don't understand about Adam and Eve. I think they were married in the garden of Eden and that was in effect after the Fall. The idea they were from another planet is crazy talk.

One thing I don't like about the scriptures is the idea that in the garden of Eden they were innocent and could not have had children. That seems ridiculous to me -- surely as children of God they were able to have children (just as will be the case in the Millennium). I believe they were childlike but then Eve decided she wanted to worship the spirit of power instead of the Holy Spirit -- the spirit of power being one of the 7 spirits of God in their hearts. That was the forbidden fruit.

The 7 spirits of God: Revelation 4:5 and 5:6. The "living stone" -- 1Peter 2:5. The seven "eyes" on one "stone" Zechariah 3:9. The stone is a secret way of referring to the soul: a ball of spirits with the Holy Spirit at the edge or firmament: see Abraham 3:18-19 which tells us the spirits are eternal and that there be two spirits one more intelligent than the other and another spirit more intelligent than they and the Lord God more intelligent than they all. We see in John's gospel Jesus calls Simon 'Peter' which means a stone -- NKJ version.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Raymond Ellis said:

There is a lot we don't understand about Adam and Eve. I think they were married in the garden of Eden and that was in effect after the Fall. The idea they were from another planet is crazy talk.

One thing I don't like about the scriptures is the idea that in the garden of Eden they were innocent and could not have had children. That seems ridiculous to me -- surely as children of God they were able to have children (just as will be the case in the Millennium). I believe they were childlike but then Eve decided she wanted to worship the spirit of power instead of the Holy Spirit -- the spirit of power being one of the 7 spirits of God in their hearts. That was the forbidden fruit.

The 7 spirits of God: Revelation 4:5 and 5:6. The "living stone" -- 1Peter 2:5. The seven "eyes" on one "stone" Zechariah 3:9. The stone is a secret way of referring to the soul: a ball of spirits with the Holy Spirit at the edge or firmament: see Abraham 3:18-19 which tells us the spirits are eternal and that there be two spirits one more intelligent than the other and another spirit more intelligent than they and the Lord God more intelligent than they all. We see in John's gospel Jesus calls Simon 'Peter' which means a stone -- NKJ version.

Whatever you are smoking I hope you brought enough for everyone.

[carbon dioxide]

On 1/9/2018 at 1:45 PM, theplains said:

I recall seeing a teaching by Joseph Smith which stated, "Now regarding Adam: He came 
here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and 
by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made 
mortal and subject to death."

Which statement is correct? Were Adam and Eve married on some other planet or on our
earth after the Fall?

Thanks,
Jim

I really don't see this statement having to mean that Adam and Eve were married before the fall.  We know that Eve became his wife but it would not seem strange to me at least to speak of Eve as his wife before they were actually married.  In my case for example, I could say I took my wife to see the Star Wars when it was shown again in theaters in 1997.  We actually did not get married until late 1998.  I see no problem with attaching the title of wife to her to even periods before we got married. 

[Avatar4321]

On 1/9/2018 at 2:45 PM, theplains said:

According to the July 2015 Ensign article, "God's Plan for Families", Adam and Eve were 
not married until after they ate the forbidden fruit.

"President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972) explained: Marriage as established in the 
beginning was an eternal covenant. The first man and the first woman were not married 
until death should part them, for at that time death had not come into the world. The 
ceremony on that occasion was performed by the Eternal Father himself whose work 
endures forever."

I recall seeing a teaching by Joseph Smith which stated, "Now regarding Adam: He came 
here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and 
by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made 
mortal and subject to death."

Which statement is correct? Were Adam and Eve married on some other planet or on our
earth after the Fall?

Thanks,
Jim

Both those statements say they were married before the fall.

[JLHPROF]

7 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Both those statements say they were married before the fall.

Which speaks to eternal marriage. Either way Adam and Eve were immortal at the time of marriage.

[Jeanne]

To the OP...was a joke.  Fueled on all kinds of things..

[Alaris]

On 1/9/2018 at 3:26 PM, JLHPROF said:

Why does it have to be one or the other?
Ceremonies can be performed more than once.

Genesis/Moses records the marriage of Adam and Eve by God (at least in Mormon understanding).

They also had a veil of forgetfulness placed upon them.  Perhaps that necessitated a reintroduction to each other.  

JLHPROF beat me to the punch. One of the greatest fallacies in those seeking for answers is presuming a conflict between two thoughts then working on the subsequent presumption that it must be therefore one or the other. 

For those like me who believe in MMP and Joseph Smith at his word that God was once a man like us and was also once a Savior like Jesus (see mmp thread) then Jesus or Elohim must have been baptized more than once. If baptized more than once then why not sealed? 

Looking into those double mirrors in the temple is not just a symbol of posterity but a more powerful symbol of sealing through time and throughout all eternity... Until we are able to dwell in everlasting burnings the same as all Gods who have gone before us. 

So Adam took one of His wives into a new world. Being a new world and a new covenant, a new fall requiring a new atonement, then being sealed to Eve again makes plain and perfect sense to me. They are sealed to the Savior of this particular eternal round after all. 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Alaris

[hope_for_things]

On 1/9/2018 at 1:45 PM, theplains said:

According to the July 2015 Ensign article, "God's Plan for Families", Adam and Eve were 
not married until after they ate the forbidden fruit.

"President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972) explained: Marriage as established in the 
beginning was an eternal covenant. The first man and the first woman were not married 
until death should part them, for at that time death had not come into the world. The 
ceremony on that occasion was performed by the Eternal Father himself whose work 
endures forever."

I recall seeing a teaching by Joseph Smith which stated, "Now regarding Adam: He came 
here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and 
by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made 
mortal and subject to death."

Which statement is correct? Were Adam and Eve married on some other planet or on our
earth after the Fall?

Thanks,
Jim

Adam and Eve are a mythological archetype, and their marriage or lack of marriage and its timing wasn't part of the narrative story as told in the OT.  Their marriage seems a little more important as re-imagined through a Mormon lens, but I'm not sure the timing of said union is an important part of the Mormon concept.   

Conceptions of them coming from another planet or married before they came to the garden, seem to be artifacts of a more fundamental Mormonism that tried to literalize and harmonize metaphorical ideas into something concrete.  They never were officially sanctioned or even part of condoned church doctrine, they actually seem more closely aligned with Adam-God doctrines that have been disavowed by current correlated Mormonism.  These ideas have already been relegated to the trash-bin that contains many of the theological imaginings from the JFS and McKonkie eras.