champatsch Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 Would like to hear some interpretations of the phrase "outward privileges", as found in this verse: What particular meaning do you ascribe to this phrase as used here?
Calm Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) Access to resources outside their cities---specifically this could refer to travel privileges meaning trade opportunities were barred; they are laying siege and that is the usual purpose. Or it could mean farms or mines or other resources some owned at a distance from the city. Edited October 16, 2017 by Calm 4
strappinglad Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 Interesting phrase. I wonder if it was a common phrase in JS time or if it was a unique expression to cover the meaning needed.
Calm Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) On the other hand, having just read a number of 1700 and 1800 texts, in a religious sense, it may be used as referring to the outwards forms of religion. In one writing, it appeared to include scripture and the Sacrament. So perhaps there were places of worship outside the cities they would be blocked from accessing. https://books.google.com/books?id=lR8cMK0WYroC&pg=PA203&lpg=PA203&dq="outward+privileges"&source=bl&ots=CkDMc2ngBL&sig=ZG8r6kQibTsDL796WJVm64rXmK0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiizozprPXWAhXE7IMKHYFoDCkQ6AEIPzAJ#v=onepage&q="outward privileges"&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=-_4CAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq="outward+privileges"&source=bl&ots=bAC4PhU3X5&sig=dtCD7ve27TLzLsCKbmw3ejeuS14&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiizozprPXWAhXE7IMKHYFoDCkQ6AEIPDAI#v=onepage&q="outward privileges"&f=false Edited October 16, 2017 by Calm 1
hope_for_things Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 42 minutes ago, champatsch said: Would like to hear some interpretations of the phrase "outward privileges", as found in this verse: What particular meaning do you ascribe to this phrase as used here? That word phrase "outward privileges" is not uses anywhere in the KJV, I got no hits on a word search. However, its quite popular in religious writings pre-1830. I did a google search for this phrase at that time period there are many hits on this phrase being used. https://www.google.com/search?q="outward+privileges"&tbs=cdr:1,cd_max:Dec+31_2+1830&tbm=bks&ei=lsfkWfW7EpGwjwPwi5-IDQ&start=0&sa=N&biw=1068&bih=898&dpr=1
hope_for_things Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 17 minutes ago, Calm said: On the other hand, having just read a number of 1700 and 1800 texts, in a religious sense, it may be used as referring to the outwards forms of religion. In one writing, it appeared to include scripture and the Sacrament. So perhaps there were places of worship outside the cities they would be blocked from accessing. https://books.google.com/books?id=lR8cMK0WYroC&pg=PA203&lpg=PA203&dq="outward+privileges"&source=bl&ots=CkDMc2ngBL&sig=ZG8r6kQibTsDL796WJVm64rXmK0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiizozprPXWAhXE7IMKHYFoDCkQ6AEIPzAJ#v=onepage&q="outward privileges"&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=-_4CAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq="outward+privileges"&source=bl&ots=bAC4PhU3X5&sig=dtCD7ve27TLzLsCKbmw3ejeuS14&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiizozprPXWAhXE7IMKHYFoDCkQ6AEIPDAI#v=onepage&q="outward privileges"&f=false Nice, I just noticed your post, sounds like you beat me to it, but thinking along these same lines.
ksfisher Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 48 minutes ago, Calm said: Access to resources outside their cities---specifically this could refer to travel privileges meaning trade opportunities were barred; they are laying siege and that is the usual purpose. Or it could mean farms or mines or other resources some owned at a distance from the city. I think you have it right here, especially about access to farms/food. Both verses 17 and 18 refer to a siege.
stemelbow Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 Interesting so they were trying to cut them off from religious practices, perhaps, so they'd feel the need to give up. Can't live with them.
ksfisher Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 Just now, stemelbow said: Interesting so they were trying to cut them off from religious practices, perhaps, so they'd feel the need to give up. Can't live with them. I don't think this reading is right. If someone were to invade Utah would they try to make the Mormons give up by stopping them from going to sacrament meeting on Sunday? No, but when you cut people off from their food supply things get precarious fairly quickly.
Calm Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) If they went up into the mountains to worship/sacrifice or gather from the smaller towns to larger for 'conferences', it would be demoralizing at the very least. What if they couldn't perform baptisms? Since this is preChrist, they were likely offering sacrifices as part of the repentance process, right? We have no idea if they had the same view of eternity that we have, that they could be at peace if prevented from performing their sacred rituals. Perhaps the Lamanites at least had a view that religious outward privileges would impact one's eternal state and once dead no chance would be given. I didn't skim that many books, probably a dozen. All linked "outward privileges" to religion. I will check my Brant Gardner books later when I get a chance to see what he says if someone else doesn't get to them first. Edited October 16, 2017 by Calm 1
ksfisher Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Calm said: If they went up into the mountains to worship/sacrifice or gather from the smaller towns to larger for 'conferences', it would be demoralizing at the very least. What if they couldn't perform baptisms? Since this is preChrist, they were likely offering sacrifices as part of the repentance process, right? It may be disappointing, but you wouldn't surrender your city because of it, you would just fight harder. Cut off the food supply and the situation is completely different. Verses 18 and 19 talk about how the strategy didn't work because the Nephites had "much provisions...laid up in store" while the robbers suffered from a "scantiness of provisions." While we tend to read the Book of Mormon as a religious document and see things through that lens, we shouldn't forget that these were read people with everyday concerns of food, shelter, health, etc. Edited October 16, 2017 by ksfisher
Calm Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) 12 Therefore, all the Lamanites who had become converted unto the Lord did unite with their brethren, the Nephites, and were compelled, for the asafety of their lives and their women and their children, to take up arms against those Gadianton robbers, yea, and also to maintain their rights, and the privileges of their church and of their worship, and their freedom and their bliberty. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&options=verse&options=highlight&options=text&query=Privilege+&testament=bofm&type=word Do a search on "privileges" in the Book of Mormon. Where the type is identified, it is always associated with religion (the Church, "sacred"). "6 And those who were desirous that Pahoran should remain chief judge over the land took upon them the name of afreemen; and thus was the bdivision among them, for the freemen had sworn or ccovenanted to maintain their rights and the privileges of their religion by a free government" "39 Behold, it came to pass that the son of Nephihah was appointed to fill the judgment-seat, in the stead of his father; yea, he was appointed chief judge and agovernor over the people, with an boath and sacred ordinance to judge righteously, and to keep the peace and the cfreedom of the people, and to grant unto them their sacred privileges to worship the Lord their God, yea, to support and maintain the cause of God all his days, and to bring the wicked to justice according to their crime." "5 Now I would that ye should understand that the word of God was liberal unto all, that none were deprived of the privilege of assembling themselves together to hear the word of God" "14 Therefore, my beloved brother, Moroni, let us resist evil, and whatsoever evil we cannot resist with our awords, yea, such as rebellions and dissensions, let us bresist them with our swords, that we may retain our freedom, that we may rejoice in the great privilege of our church, and in the cause of our Redeemer and our God" "4 And thus they have been acalled to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and bblindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great cprivilege as their brethren" Edited October 16, 2017 by Calm
Jeanne Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 To hem them in....this would also keep from any mission work of sorts. Basic freedoms.
Calm Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 10 minutes ago, ksfisher said: It may be disappointing, but you wouldn't surrender your city because of it, you would just fight harder. Cut off the food supply and the situation is completely different. You have a modern man's view of religion. They may not have viewed it the same way. What if you believed your children or parents who died would be damned for all eternity if sacrifices weren't made or some form of ritual wasn't held? We shouldn't assume their religious beliefs were identical to ours. Plus the Lamanites might be assuming the Nephites thought about religion in the same way they did, which would be an apostate/totally different faith altogether which might have had that type of view.
ksfisher Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, Calm said: You have a modern man's view of religion. They may not have viewed it the same way. What if you believed your children or parents who died would be damned for all eternity if sacrifices weren't made or some form of ritual wasn't held? We shouldn't assume their religious beliefs were identical to ours. Plus the Lamanites might be assuming the Nephites thought about religion in the same way they did, which would be an apostate/totally different faith altogether which might have had that type of view. Having an empty stomach pretty much means the same thing no matter who you are, when or where you are living.
Calm Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 My memory says the Catholic Church put huge pressure on some communities by revoking the privileges of the Sacraments (mass, confession, marriage, death rituals) in order for them to put huge pressure on their leaders. I may be thinking of Interdiction which is not as extreme: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdict
Calm Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Having an empty stomach pretty much means the same thing no matter who you are, when or where you are living. That would be covered by cutting them off from their lands though and hemming them in on all sides. This appears to be something in addition to that. Edited October 16, 2017 by Calm
ksfisher Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 8 minutes ago, Calm said: That would be covered by cutting them off from their lands though and hemming them in on all sides. This appears to be something in addition to that. Respectfully agree to disagree.
strappinglad Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 Wouldn't a siege accomplish both, restricting the flow of goods and the continuation of rituals? Two birds one stone. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 2 hours ago, Calm said: 12 Therefore, all the Lamanites who had become converted unto the Lord did unite with their brethren, the Nephites, and were compelled, for the asafety of their lives and their women and their children, to take up arms against those Gadianton robbers, yea, and also to maintain their rights, and the privileges of their church and of their worship, and their freedom and their bliberty ..................................... Probably "rites" instead of "rights" here in 3 Nephi 2:12, as elsewhere.
RevTestament Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 4 hours ago, champatsch said: Would like to hear some interpretations of the phrase "outward privileges", as found in this verse: What particular meaning do you ascribe to this phrase as used here? Very interesting point. I think I have to go with the English usage of this phrase at the time which seems to refer mostly to the social aspects of Christianity - any outward manifestations that one is practicing religion. These would include worship services, ordinances, priesthood blessings, etc. So the text is saying to me that the Lamanites were trying to disrupt all the comings and goings of the Nephites from city to city and thus hamper the ability of the Church to function - the ability of Church leaders to give priesthood blessings, ordain new church leaders as needed, and that sort of thing. I also believe the Nephites had preserved a land southward mostly for hunting, and so this would also have the effect of cutting off some food. If they are holed up inside their walled cities, their ability to grow food would also be limited. One of my first thoughts was an attempt to eliminate trade, but we have no/very little evidence that the Nephites traded with the Lamanites to the south. However, as a practical matter I believe the Lamanites craved Nephite goods, and when they couldn't pillage them, they would trade for them to the advantage of the Nephites willing to do so. We have no evidence, however, that Nephites used any type of trade goods in the practice of their religion - incense, oil, etc.
Doctrine 612 Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 1820 dictionary OUT'WARD, a. [L. versus.] 1. External; exterior; forming the superficial part; as the outward coat of an onion; an outward garment. 2. External; visible; opposed to inward; as outward hate. 3. Extrinsic; adventitious. And outward honor for an inward toil. 4. Foreign; not intestine; as an outward war. [Not now used. We now say, external or foreign war.] 5. Tending to the exterior part. The fire will force its outward way. 6. In Scripture, civil; public; as opposed to religious. 1 Chr 24. 7. In theology, carnal; fleshly; corporeal; not spiritual; as the outward man. OUT'WARD, n. External form.
champatsch Posted October 16, 2017 Author Posted October 16, 2017 Thanks for all the thoughts on this phrase. Much appreciated. I will, from time to time, ask for input on the possible meanings of Book of Mormon phrases and vocabulary.
Recommended Posts