A Prophet of God

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, wtrdog said:

What? Stop trying to sound fancy. First, the "modern" guys do not at all resemble the biblical examples. They were very transparent about the epistemological nature of their spiritual experiences. Specifics about what they experienced, when, where, and how.

So OT prophets were explicit about the epistemics, and just what might those details or patterns entail?

2 hours ago, wtrdog said:

Second, you don't have a clue what Christ would or wouldn't do. You've got a 38th hand perspective on what some completely unknown party thinks. One thing I've never understood is how the bible can a treated as so errant and yet literal at the same time. 

But Jesus was not explicit, because . . . well, you don't really know, do you?  Why the convenient inconsistency?  C'mon, waterdog.  Surely you have something more substantive than trying to have your cake and eat it too!!

[Calm]

2 hours ago, wtrdog said:

. Even if you aren't willing to actually live your convictions, I will.

He is living his convictions, he is refusing to break them to play your game.

[Calm]

Weird glitch

Edited September 22, 2017 by Calm

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Funny. Because I have. Elder Rasband gave an excellent talk on the matter last conference

Did he claim revelation?

[california boy]

6 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Funny. Because I have. Elder Rasband gave an excellent talk on the matter last conference

This is what I find as a paradox in Mormon belief.  The church clearly claims revelation.  What it doesn't do any more is declare revelation.

All churches claim to receive answers from God.  None declare revelation.  That was what was unique to Mormonism. 

[Avatar4321]

7 hours ago, wtrdog said:

I thought as much, all talk, no real faith. There is no setup here. Ill give you my IRL info by PM. You can call my bishop and he will confirm how I've been absent the past two years but started attending after conference for some inexplicable reason.  And it wouldn't be for the wrong reason either. If I'm wrong, tell you what, bet or not ill go back for at least a year. Even if you aren't willing to actually live your convictions, I will. If the leaders dispensed with their prevaricating and demonstrated real honesty for once, that would be a huge sign for me that maybe they are actually inspired. Some virtue worth hanging around for.  Ill add another condition too. Instead of making an unambiguous claim about being a prophet and receiving revelation, ill also accept the opposite. Like if a q15 were to talk about how when they were a 70 they imagined they'd get to see Christ or at least have a vision or something if they ever became an apostle, but nope. Let down. Their spiritual experiences are no different than anybody else, just subjective feelings too, sometimes they even entertain, gasp, doubts. In other words, if a leader simply demystifies the whole thing and is fully transparent. Honest. I predict neither happens.

My faith in Christ is demonstrated by actually listening to what Christ teaches instead of trying to prove it in activities He has told us to avoid: gambling and Temping the Lord.

I've seen no evidence that any of the leaders are lying. Just a couple months ago Elder Holland went out of his way to correct a story he was misinformed about. That doesn't seem like someone trying to low.

They have far more spiritual experiences than the rest of us. They are trying to teach us the basics of getting revelation for ourselves. Boasting about grand visions when the Lord says otherwise and when most revelations don't come in that matter seems contrary to the plan heavenly Father has for us. Most revelation comes though the whisiperings of the Spirit. Teaching the saints how to hear and recognize the Spirit is far more valuable than sharing grand experiences for the sake of sharing grand experiences.

I invite you to prayerfully listen to conference next week and seek the Lords guidance.

[Avatar4321]

4 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Did he claim revelation?

Well, he gave a talking about the Spirit directing him with actual examples of the spirit directing him. So yes. Very clearly

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

This is what I find as a paradox in Mormon belief.  The church clearly claims revelation.  What it doesn't do any more is declare revelation.

All churches claim to receive answers from God.  None declare revelation.  That was what was unique to Mormonism. 

Read the Proclamation on the Family and the Living Christ. Both declarations of revealed truth

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

They have far more spiritual experiences than the rest of us. 

I believed that when I was a young man, but since that time, I have come to accept that these church leaders receive revelation the same way the rest of us do. President Hinckley said something to that effect, that the difference was in the extent of our stewardship, not in how revelation is received. 

In the aftermath of the hurricane, I was trying to figure out some way we could help my daughter. Having just paid my son's tuition and room and board, we don't have a lot of spare cash right now. At work one morning, the thought occurred to me that we should give them our second car. Not 30 seconds later, my wife texted me from Texas saying "We should give them the Honda."  Coincidence?

A small thing, yes, but it turned out to make a huge difference. If there is revelation or inspiration to be had, church leaders are no more entitled to it than anyone else. 

[california boy]

49 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Read the Proclamation on the Family and the Living Christ. Both declarations of revealed truth

Yet neither one is declared revelation.  So you are just reinforcing my point.

[Bobbieaware]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

This is what I find as a paradox in Mormon belief.  The church clearly claims revelation.  What it doesn't do any more is declare revelation.

All churches claim to receive answers from God.  None declare revelation.  That was what was unique to Mormonism. 

And you will never "get it" until you gain the Spirit of Revelation yourself. Those who have the Spirit of Revelation don't need the Church leaders to officially proclaim that their words and decisions are revelation because they already know.

A question: If the the Church leaders did bluntly proclaim to all the world that their words and decisions are revelations from God, would you be any more disposed to obey them than you do now?

[california boy]

39 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I believed that when I was a young man, but since that time, I have come to accept that these church leaders receive revelation the same way the rest of us do. President Hinckley said something to that effect, that the difference was in the extent of our stewardship, not in how revelation is received. 

In the aftermath of the hurricane, I was trying to figure out some way we could help my daughter. Having just paid my son's tuition and room and board, we don't have a lot of spare cash right now. At work one morning, the thought occurred to me that we should give them our second car. Not 30 seconds later, my wife texted me from Texas saying "We should give them the Honda."  Coincidence?

A small thing, yes, but it turned out to make a huge difference. If there is revelation or inspiration to be had, church leaders are no more entitled to it than anyone else. 

This is pretty much what it has come down to.  And it appears no one is claiming anything more than that.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

This is pretty much what it has come down to.  And it appears no one is claiming anything more than that.

Even the one clear revelation said to have happened in my lifetime (the lifting of priesthood restrictions) is described as everyone in the room with President Kimball having a spiritual confirmation that it was God's will. That's no different from what a bishop or elders quorum president or father or mother is entitled to in praying about their stewardship.

[california boy]

Just now, Bobbieaware said:

And you will never "get it" until you gain the Spirit of Revelation yourself. Those who have the Spirit of Revelation don't need the Church leaders to officially proclaim that their words and decisions are revelation because they already know.

A question: If the the Church leaders did bluntly proclaim to all the world that their words and decisions are revelations from God, would you be any more disposed to obey them than you do now?

You are quite right that I no longer trust church leaders when they say they know the will of God.  I don't think I have made any secret of that.  And I don't mean to make this thread personal.  The reason for the thread is to explore how those that do believe, view what it means to be a prophet and what revelation to that prophet means.  I guess I was also interested to see if anyone else felt that the prophet had declared anything to be a revelation from God.  Certainly the thread has been interesting to me.  I hope it has to others as well.

I try never to post anything that questions someone's faith.  I think everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want.  I hope that asking whether a prophet has declared any revelation from God is not meant to demean anyone's belief in their faith in the church.  I also hope that you and others cans see the difference.

[jkwilliams]

12 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

And you will never "get it" until you gain the Spirit of Revelation yourself. Those who have the Spirit of Revelation don't need the Church leaders to officially proclaim that their words and decisions are revelation because they already know.

A question: If the the Church leaders did bluntly proclaim to all the world that their words and decisions are revelations from God, would you be any more disposed to obey them than you do now?

Just out of curiosity, when church leaders issue a new policy or proclamation, should we immediately accept it as the word of God, or should we seek spiritual confirmation that it is?

Edited September 22, 2017 by jkwilliams

[Bobbieaware]

51 minutes ago, california boy said:

You are quite right that I no longer trust church leaders when they say they know the will of God.  I don't think I have made any secret of that.  And I don't mean to make this thread personal.  The reason for the thread is to explore how those that do believe, view what it means to be a prophet and what revelation to that prophet means.  I guess I was also interested to see if anyone else felt that the prophet had declared anything to be a revelation from God.  Certainly the thread has been interesting to me.  I hope it has to others as well.

I try never to post anything that questions someone's faith.  I think everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want.  I hope that asking whether a prophet has declared any revelation from God is not meant to demean anyone's belief in their faith in the church.  I also hope that you and others cans see the difference.

When each of the 15 prophets, seers and revelators of the Church address General Conference and finish their remarks by declaring what they have spoken is in the name of Jesus Christ, those who possess the Spirit of Revelation know those sacred words -- in the name of Jesus Christ -- carry the same prophetic weight as if the prophets had said 'thus saints the Lord.' But for those who do not possess the Spirit of Revelation, the very same sacred words ring hollow and mean nothing. You are never going to get any satisfactory answers until you possess the Spirit of Revelation yourself. Until that day, your quest to find answers on this board will likely amount to little more than an unending exercise in frustration.

 

[california boy]

19 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

When each of the 15 prophets, seers and revelators of the Church address General Conference and finish their remarks by declaring what they have spoken is in the name of Jesus Christ, those who possess the Spirit of Revelation know those sacred words -- in the name of Jesus Christ -- carry the same prophetic weight as if the prophets had said 'thus saints the Lord.' But for those who do not possess the Spirit of Revelation, the very same sacred words ring hollow and mean nothing. You are never going to get any satisfactory answers until you possess the Spirit of Revelation yourself. Until that day, your quest to find answers on this board will likely amount to little more than an unending exercise in frustration.

 

I guess I have to repeat this one more time.  I acknowledge that the church believes that God answers prayers.  The church believes that church leaders guide the church by inspiration.  That when someone speaks they use the phrase "in the name of Jesus Christ".  EVERY Christian church makes those same claims.  Would you agree with that?

As I have said before, the uniqueness of the Mormon church was not that they claimed revelation from God, but that they declared revelation from God.  The last time a revelation was declared by the prophet was in 1978.  Would you agree with that?

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

As I have said before, the uniqueness of the Mormon church was not that they claimed revelation from God, but that they declared revelation from God.  

Interesting way of phrasing it.
Authoritative revelation vs non-authoritative revelation.
Is that the difference?  I can receive personal revelation.  So can President Monson.  President Monson's is authoritative over the Church and mine is not.
Only he has the right to declare revelation from God to the Church.

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

 The last time a revelation was declared by the prophet was in 1978.  Would you agree with that?

Yes.  Since then any revelation received by the prophet has been assumed by the members, not declared by the prophet.

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Just out of curiosity, when church leaders issue a new policy or proclamation, should we immediately accept it as the word of God, or should we seek spiritual confirmation that it is?

Because I possess the Spirit of Revelation I usually know instantaneously, or very soon thereafter, what the prophets have revealed is revelation from God. What may require some time, though, is going through a process of personal revelation that enables me to come to understand why what the prophets have revealed is correct and from God. For example, I immediately knew by the promptings of the Spirit that the policy on the children of gay parents was from God, but it took some time and a revelatory process of prayerful consideration before it was revealed to me precisely why the policy was correct and from the Lord. I am no different than any other saint, for I too must learn line upon line..

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

When each of the 15 prophets, seers and revelators of the Church address General Conference and finish their remarks by declaring what they have spoken is in the name of Jesus Christ, those who possess the Spirit of Revelation know those sacred words -- in the name of Jesus Christ -- carry the same prophetic weight as if the prophets had said 'thus saints the Lord.' But for those who do not possess the Spirit of Revelation, the very same sacred words ring hollow and mean nothing. You are never going to get any satisfactory answers until you possess the Spirit of Revelation yourself. Until that day, your quest to find answers on this board will likely amount to little more than an unending exercise in frustration.

Everyone in the church, from the president down to the 4 year old whose mom is whispering in her ear, finishes their remarks in the name of Jesus Christ. 

[jkwilliams]

21 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Because I possess the Spirit of Revelation I usually know instantaneously, or very soon thereafter, what the prophets have revealed is revelation from God. What may require some time, though, is going through a process of personal revelation that enables me to come to understand why what the prophets have revealed is correct and from God. For example, I immediately knew by the promptings of the Spirit that the policy on the children of gay parents was from God, but it took some time and a revelatory process of prayerful consideration before it was revealed to me precisely why the policy was correct and from the Lord. I am no different than any other saint, for I too must learn line upon line..

Not everyone is quite so in touch with God.

[Bobbieaware]

6 minutes ago, california boy said:

I guess I have to repeat this one more time.  I acknowledge that the church believes that God answers prayers.  The church believes that church leaders guide the church by inspiration.  That when someone speaks they use the phrase "in the name of Jesus Christ".  EVERY Christian church makes those same claims.  Would you agree with that?

As I have said before, the uniqueness of the Mormon church was not that they claimed revelation from God, but that they declared revelation from God.  The last time a revelation was declared by the prophet was in 1978.  Would you agree with that?

The other Churches openly and proudly acknowledge that when they speak in the name of Christ they are most definitely not doing so as prophets of God. Among the major religions, the LDS Church is unique in this regard. But I repeat, for those who possess the Spirit of Revelation, there is no need for the prophets to flatly proclaim what they teach and preach in General Conference, for instance, is revelation from God. The prophets don't have to bluntly proclaim what they are going to teach and preach in the forthcoming General Conference is revelation from God because the Holy Ghost makes that pronouncement in behalf of the prophets to all those who have spiritual ears to hear.

One day you will understand why it's very wise that the prophets of the Church are now operating in the current fashion because if they were to get pushy with the revelations at this time, it would cause much more internal strife than the Church is now experiencing, and there would also be a great deal more external persecution and mockery of sacred things than the Church is presently experiencing. Now this doesn't mean the days of blunt "in your face" revelation from God won't return in the future, because they surely will; but when that day does come it will be at a time when fire and brimstone is raining down from heaven and the whole earth will be in convulsion. When that fearful day does come, there will be many members of the Church who now want blunt revelation who will wish they could go back to the good old days when the prophets of God were flying their revelations underneath the devil's radar. 

[Bobbieaware]

9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Not everyone is quite so in touch with God.

But they could be if the really wanted it to be so.

[jkwilliams]

7 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

But they could be if the really wanted it to be so.

That would probably require more humility than a lot of us have. 

[jkwilliams]

15 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

One day you will understand why it's very wise that the prophets of the Church are now operating in the current fashion because if they were to get pushy with the revelations at this time, it would cause much more internal strife than the Church is now experiencing, and there would also be a great deal more external persecution and mockery of sacred things than the Church is presently experiencing. Now this doesn't mean the days of blunt "in your face" revelation from God won't return in the future, because they surely will; but when that day does come it will be at a time when fire and brimstone is raining down from heaven and the whole earth will be in convulsion. When that fearful day does come, there will be many members of the Church who now want blunt revelation who will wish they could go back to the good old days when the prophets of God were flying their revelations underneath the devil's radar. 

It seems bizarre to suggest that the prophets are somehow holding back what they say so they don't cause internal strife. How could anyone other than the prophets know that? In my 52 years in the church, the only people I've ever heard making such statements are those who think the stuff being held back is, coincidentally, the gospel hobby they've been blathering about for years.