Church statement on Charlottesville, Virginia

[Darren10]

When Antifas and White Nationalists fight, it is a fight between two fascist groups who simple have different targets for their hate. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Darren10

[The Nehor]

23 minutes ago, longview said:

Oh really?  You would give license to Antifa and BLM to commit violence and taking the law into their own hands?

I did not say that. Violence should be the province of the government and the only within the rule of law. I am all for them getting fired and socially ostracized though.

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm not disagreeing.  I'm just saying, just wait and see, if what you are saying is true, I imagine cries of persecutions and 1st Amendment will be invoked. 

They will and their pleas for First Amendment protection from stuff that has nothing to do the First Amendment will hopefully be laughed off.

[Darren10]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

If you abhor them, why defend them? Why the whataboutism and deflection of criticism away from this Nazi group? The alt right murdered a young woman, and you only condemn Antifa.

And to add to the controversy, nobody ones why this driver drove into the crowd. Not the police and unless so.ething has changed since I che ked last night, virtually no news organization except FoxNews is officially repirti g tbis as a hate crime. Officially the driver claims that his car was attacked so if true I say combine that plusnews footage of people who supported Trump, and the driver was one of them, bring dragged out of their vehicles and getting the living he'll beaten out of them, plus the driver being skitso, plus the driver having sympathy and support for white nationalistic groups (looser), and you got a very bad result up and coming when you (Antifa) starts to fight the protesters. 

Charging the driver with second degree murder is 100% justified and if premeditated I'd fully support upgrading that charge to first degree. But, nobody knows for sure why the driver plowed into the crowd. 

Edited to add: well, I guess the driver knows. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Darren10

[longview]

14 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Here is why they must be opposed.

SEE

Yes, I remember reading about Skokie back then.  And I was sympathetic to their outrage.  I believe it was right for them to want to ban them from marching thru the Jewish neighborhood.  My first post in this thread still stands which explained who the original group was that obtained the permit for a demonstration.  See:

 

[Darren10]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I did not say that. Violence should be the province of the government and the only within the rule of law. I am all for them getting fired and socially ostracized though.

You support Black Lives Matter member bring fired and ostracized If they commit or incite violence?

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, Helmuth said:

I've got to say, I take the side of the alt-right on this.  Absolutely and completely.  They followed the law completely, were grossly mistreated and abused by both the police and the leftist mob, and yet comported themselves quite well.  They were well-dressed, calm, and civilized, while the other side attacked them with mace, baseball bats, and (yikes!) flamethrowers.

Dr. Peterson, I love you, but let us all note: your article contains no arguments.  No refutations of ideas.  Just raw emotion.

Emotion is fine.  Emotion is who we are as humans.  Emotions rule us completely -- our thoughts, our actions, our political opinions -- ..... if we let them.  Is it a bad thing to let them?  Not necessarily.  Some would say it is not.  But the opinions informed and backed up solely by raw emotion are not going to tend to be particularly fact-based, nor, obviously, have anything to do with logic or rationality.

Myself, I prefer logic and rationality.  But, I mean, that's just my own patrio-euro culture and my own bias.  I'm not saying it's superior to any other culture.  Oh no.  We must never say disparaging things like that.  I would never say that.  Would I?

I wondered if this might serve as a honeypot thread for closet white supremacists, sorry, Euroculture supremacists. Sad to see I was right.

I can understand LDS and Christians selling their birthright for money, sex, glory, and power. I have a hard time understanding why people would sell it for such a stupid and childish ideology. I really suspect the other kids burning in hell are going to spend a long time laughing at them.

[Darren10]

2 minutes ago, longview said:

Yes, I remember reading about Skokie back then.  And I was sympathetic to their outrage.  I believe it was right for them to want to ban them from marching thru the Jewish neighborhood.  My first post in this thread still stands which explained who the original group was that obtained the permit for a demonstration.  See:

 

I lived right next to Skokie in Des Plaines when that happenef. It was a good call. Likewise, Anyifa + BLM should have NEVER been allowed within physical contact with each other at the protest. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Darren10

[Helmuth]

"If I were the local leader of someone espousing such views, I would be very concerned.  And, candidly, I would be at least thinking about an eventual disciplinary council." -- DCP

 

"Good news though. Social media is hard at work identifying attendees and people are already losing their jobs after being identified. Turns out Twitter can be a voice for good." -- The Nehor

 

Careful about escalation, guys.  The left has already escalated and escalated and escalated pretty stupendously far over the decades in their conflict against first-world-style civilization.  Now, the left is the in-group.  Has been my whole life, and yours, too.  They have all the power, they have all the cards, and they've been getting their way for two hundred years now.

 

How do you think that makes the out-group feel?

 

Hmm?

 

The left is supposed to have all the empathy.  Any empathy for the out-group, guys?  You can muster it for the Somali Muslim; can you muster it for the Anglo-Saxon boilermaker?

 

Answer, by the way: No.  And I get it, believe me.  The white boilermaker's a deplorable, irredeemable.  But you should then ask yourself: why can't I muster any empathy for the boilermaker?  It really is true that you have out-sized amounts of empathy.  It's your strength.  So how come it doesn't apply to normal, white middle-Americans?

 

Anyway, as one who does (now) have empathy, let me explain it to you.  Losing for 200 years is going to make the out-group feel bad.  Not very good.  Less than ecstatic.

 

Does that, like, make sense?

 

Already it is extremely difficult to be on the right.  The number of social situations in which it would be seen as outrageously bad taste to express right-leaning opinions is very large -- the converse is restricted to vanishingly few venues -- perhaps biker bars and the NASCAR track, though even NASCAR is getting pozzed and going the PC route.  Already people on the right do not feel free to express their opinions in the workplace.  Or even hint of such opinions!  HR will have a witch hunt whipped together in 5 minutes flat (they weren't doing anything productive, after all; just crouching up in the tree, waiting for a foolish prey to wander by).

 

And now, you want to escalate the conflict.  You want to get them fired for expressing non-approved-by-you opinions entirely outside of work!  Do some facial recognition on everybody at the latest Trump rally and get them all canned.  Ha, ha!  That'll teach 'em!  Oh, and let's get 'em all kicked out of the Church, too.  Let's strip them of their religion, of their covenants, of their identity.  Take their livelihood, take their Church membership, take it all: whee!  It's always OK to punch a right-winger!  AMIRITE?  OR AMIRITEORAMIRITE?

 

Here's the thing about conflict escalation.  The other guy might, eventually, (like after two hundred years of pozz) decide to escalate, too.

 

And you might not like the consequences.

[thesometimesaint]

While we may never know the actual reasons for his murderous spree. The people who know him best say he is a Nazi supporting alt-right freak.

[provoman]

48 minutes ago, cdowis said:

I find it interesting that you are having an issue understanding what "provoke to violence" means.  I think it is safe to assume everybody else knows what I meant.

 

Dont hide behind "everyone knows what I meant"; engage in a dialogue and elaborate. 

Is a Confederate Battle flag grounds to resort to violence?

Is a BLM flag grounds to resort to violence?

Is a rainbow flag at Temple Square grounds to resort to violence?

Are you justifying the attacks on the group you do not agree with?

Can the attack on the countrr protestors be justified because someone did not agree with their message? You cant pick and choose.

Edited August 14, 2017 by provoman

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Darren10 said:

You support Black Lives Matter member bring fired and ostracized If they commit or incite violence?

Sure. I also support legal sanctions against violence. I am, however, not going to pretend I despise the ideology of extremists in BLM to the same degree I do white supremacists and the alt right.

As a comparison I would support legally punishing an LDS guy who commits violence in the same way I would a Nazi but I am not going to pretend the ideologies are equivalent because both have members who use violence.

[longview]

24 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

- - - The whole stupid Birther conspiracy he largely led? - - -

Totally lame and untrue.  This alone completely destroys your credibility.

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Sure. I also support legal sanctions against violence. I am, however, not going to pretend I despise the ideology of extremists in BLM to the same degree I do white supremacists and the alt right.

As a comparison I would support legally punishing an LDS guy who commits violence in the same way I would a Nazi but I am not going to pretend the ideologies are equivalent because both have members who use violence.

I don't pretend, I despise both equally. Hate is hate.  Black Lives Matter antics are no different than the KKK. They both are founded on lies and both preach hate based on race. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Darren10

[gopher]

I'm curious why the church needed to put out a statement at all.  Hoping for good PR by piling on with everyone else?  There are much larger problems going on every day in the US than a small group of racists protesting.  It was tragic there was a fatality.  But what does it have to do with the church?  Do we know if any members of the church were involved?

Charlottesville is a beautiful college town, but it's been tough the past few years at UVA.  Apparently some are just now realizing the school was founded by a racist.

[thesometimesaint]

3 minutes ago, longview said:

Yes, I remember reading about Skokie back then.  And I was sympathetic to their outrage.  I believe it was right for them to want to ban them from marching thru the Jewish neighborhood.  My first post in this thread still stands which explained who the original group was that obtained the permit for a demonstration.  See:

 

It wasn't Antii-fascists that rioted in Berekley it was self identified Anarchists, and Alt-Right freaks.

SEE http://www.salon.com/2017/04/18/pro-trump-rioters-got-away-with-beating-anti-fascists-in-berkeley-and-they-likely-wont-stop-there/

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, gopher said:

I'm curious why the church needed to put out a statement at all.  Hoping for good PR by piling on with everyone else?  There are much larger problems going on every day in the US than a small group of racists protesting.  It was tragic there was a fatality.  But what does it have to do with the church?  Do we know if any members of the church were involved?

Charlottesville is a beautiful college town, but it's been tough the past few years at UVA.  Apparently some are just now realizing the school was founded by a racist.

The Church's statement was cute - "we're not racists. we condemn it."  Was somebody questioning the Church or something?  Were there a bunch of members of the Church involved in this?  Did the SP organize a group of protesters?  Odd that the church responded, odd more that it felt the need to tell everyone it's not racist. 

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, Helmuth said:

"If I were the local leader of someone espousing such views, I would be very concerned.  And, candidly, I would be at least thinking about an eventual disciplinary council." -- DCP

 

"Good news though. Social media is hard at work identifying attendees and people are already losing their jobs after being identified. Turns out Twitter can be a voice for good." -- The Nehor

 

Careful about escalation, guys.  The left has already escalated and escalated and escalated pretty stupendously far over the decades in their conflict against first-world-style civilization.  Now, the left is the in-group.  Has been my whole life, and yours, too.  They have all the power, they have all the cards, and they've been getting their way for two hundred years now.

 

How do you think that makes the out-group feel?

 

Hmm?

 

The left is supposed to have all the empathy.  Any empathy for the out-group, guys?  You can muster it for the Somali Muslim; can you muster it for the Anglo-Saxon boilermaker?

 

Answer, by the way: No.  And I get it, believe me.  The white boilermaker's a deplorable, irredeemable.  But you should then ask yourself: why can't I muster any empathy for the boilermaker?  It really is true that you have out-sized amounts of empathy.  It's your strength.  So how come it doesn't apply to normal, white middle-Americans?

 

Anyway, as one who does (now) have empathy, let me explain it to you.  Losing for 200 years is going to make the out-group feel bad.  Not very good.  Less than ecstatic.

 

Does that, like, make sense?

 

Already it is extremely difficult to be on the right.  The number of social situations in which it would be seen as outrageously bad taste to express right-leaning opinions is very large -- the converse is restricted to vanishingly few venues -- perhaps biker bars and the NASCAR track, though even NASCAR is getting pozzed and going the PC route.  Already people on the right do not feel free to express their opinions in the workplace.  Or even hint of such opinions!  HR will have a witch hunt whipped together in 5 minutes flat (they weren't doing anything productive, after all; just crouching up in the tree, waiting for a foolish prey to wander by).

 

And now, you want to escalate the conflict.  You want to get them fired for expressing non-approved-by-you opinions entirely outside of work!  Do some facial recognition on everybody at the latest Trump rally and get them all canned.  Ha, ha!  That'll teach 'em!  Oh, and let's get 'em all kicked out of the Church, too.  Let's strip them of their religion, of their covenants, of their identity.  Take their livelihood, take their Church membership, take it all: whee!  It's always OK to punch a right-winger!  AMIRITE?  OR AMIRITEORAMIRITE?

 

Here's the thing about conflict escalation.  The other guy might, eventually, (like after two hundred years of pozz) decide to escalate, too.

 

And you might not like the consequences.

I am not opposed to the reasonable Right. In the days of Eisenhower as President I would be a proud Republican. I still hope to be one again some day.

Empathy for the Nazis and KKK members? Sure, I can empathize. Most had screwed up lives that led them down this path. I wish they had gone another way. Empathy enough to leave them unchallenged? To let them become part of the mainstream? Hell no.

White supremacy might be the losing outgroup. I hope they stay that way. If they win they do not want to get rid of out groups. They just want to make sure they are the people running roughshod over the out group.

So yes. Vilify them. Take their jobs and their LDS membership. Do not invite them to parties. They are not just sinners. They are predatory sinners and not just social outcasts like those the Savior ate with. They do not just want back in; they want in and to thrust others out. Let them eat husks with the swine in the hopes that they will come to themselves and repent and return home so we can all welcome them with tears of joy. Until then, we should not let them in lest they throw the older faithful brother out and end up ruling the house.

Edited August 14, 2017 by The Nehor

[Tacenda]

23 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

And to add to the controversy, nobody ones why this driver drove into the crowd. Not the police and unless so.ething has changed since I che ked last night, virtually no news organization except FoxNews is officially repirti g tbis as a hate crime. Officially the driver claims that his car was attacked so if true I say combine that plusnews footage of people who supported Trump, and the driver was one of them, bring dragged out of their vehicles and getting the living he'll beaten out of them, plus the driver being skitso, plus the driver having sympathy and support for white nationalistic groups (looser), and you got a very bad result up and coming when you (Antifa) starts to fight the protesters. 

Charging the driver with second degree murder is 100% justified and if premeditated I'd fully support upgrading that charge to first degree. But, nobody knows for sure why the driver plowed into the crowd. 

Edited to add: well, I guess the driver knows. 

I watched on the news that the male was a neo nazi out in public, at school etc. He even went on a school trip or something and made fun of something about the Holocaust I believe. I'll have to find a link. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/12/virginia-unite-the-right-rally-protest-violence

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/one-dead-as-car-strikes-crowds-amid-protests-of-white-nationalist-gathering-in-charlottesville-two-police-die-in-helicopter-crash/2017/08/13/3590b3ce-8021-11e7-902a-2a9f2d808496_story.html?utm_term=.de01a000fc59

Edited August 14, 2017 by Tacenda

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, longview said:

Totally lame and untrue.  This alone completely destroys your credibility.

Nope, he did not create the conspiracy but it was a minor blip on the radar until he started championing it. There was a reason Obama humiliated him at the White House correspondents dinner and not anyone else except for a minor shot at Fox News. Then he came out and denied the whole thing when it no longer mattered.

Incidentally if one perceived mistake like this destroys the credibility of the person who spoke the lie how does Trump have any credibility with you? I am genuinely curious.

[thesometimesaint]

13 minutes ago, longview said:

Totally lame and untrue.  This alone completely destroys your credibility.

Trump is a birther.

SEE http://www.msnbc.com/am-joy/watch/tracking-trump-s-statements-on-birtherism-845499971907

[longview]

14 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

While we may never know the actual reasons for his murderous spree. The people who know him best say he is a Nazi supporting alt-right freak.

Does it really matter?  You must have missed an earlier post that indicated the driver has schizophrenia.  See my response to this:

 

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

The Church's statement was cute - "we're not racists. we condemn it."  Was somebody questioning the Church or something?  Were there a bunch of members of the Church involved in this?  Did the SP organize a group of protesters?  Odd that the church responded, odd more that it felt the need to tell everyone it's not racist. 

As we have seen in this and other threads racism exists in the Church. Perhaps the statement was an attempt to get white supremacist LDS off that bandwagon? Probably will not work but worth trying? Sure.

[longview]

10 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

SEE http://www.salon.com/2017/04/18/pro-trump-rioters-got-away-with-beating-anti-fascists-in-berkeley-and-they-likely-wont-stop-there/

Salon is a hard left rag.

[thesometimesaint]

Just now, longview said:

Does it really matter?  You must have missed an earlier post that indicated the driver has schizophrenia.  See my response to this:

 

Who the heck cares? We have psych wards in prisons for the criminally insane.