Will Religion Ever Make a Comeback?

[hagoth7]

On 7/18/2017 at 7:44 PM, Rivers said:

Is there anything that could possibly bring more people back into religious institutions? Or will religion just keep on declining?

A comeback? Cud Danny Gokey: Comeback

 

I'm launching a school for scribes. (Seriously.) To round that out better, could use some serious help from the Semitic and First Nations side of things. (Bueller?)

If two others are launched by someone out there for pharisees and hypocrites (oops, I already have the latter covered), we then have a three-leaf clover.

No Danite jazz band willing to form up a defensive perimeter? Bummer. 4-leaf woulda been fun.

Whether that will build up or tear down "institutions" remains to be seen. I'm guessing it will blur boundaries that used to be helpful, but that aren't in this age.  My hope is that the seedlings that grow out of the scribe school will help "institutions" specifically individuals/families, eventually weed out the less helpful traditions, and gradually plant/nurture a slightly better crop. Resources for mothers/fathers to use in FHE or home schooling.

From the process, I just might learn a thing or three about how to build/nurture a family properly. You never know.

Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7

[rodheadlee]

It will make a huge comeback when World War 3 starts.

[LittleNipper]

Absolutely, a war will bring people to churches. When 9/11 occurred visitors came by the droves. Some even continued to attend our Bible church. They all seemed to see a correlation between what had happened and the end times and they were scared...

[california boy]

18 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I suspect it'll keep declining. There's a strong argument to make that as rule of law and formal government become more trustworthy, they come to take the place of religion more and more. The argument goes that's why Europe became so secular with most of religion coming from either immigrants or more cultural trappings that lack the belief. It was an open question whether that would happen in the United States or not but I think the last 15 years suggest that we're at least following Canada even if we don't go quite as far as Europe. Whether we reach a steady state or not remains an open question. My guess is that we will. The drop in religiosity in Canada has slowed a fair bit the past years even though Canada started down the move to the Nones about ten years ahead of the United States.

All this assumes no major turmoils though. We are at an inflection point somewhat akin to the late 60's. So I wouldn't assume there will be no more major changes. I've often made reference to cliodynamics predicting this inflection point. But it can't really predict what the outcome will be. Will it be like 67-70 uin the US with major change and then a backlash until we get an equilibrium? Or will it be more akin to the Civil War? It's pretty hard to see. I'd be pretty leery of predictions until this current cultural conflict becomes resolved. My guess is that it'll resolve in a fashion more akin to European secularism but it could easily go the other direction.

I think your comment that I put in bold is a very interesting observation.  Some of the comments have talked about when hard times, people will naturally turn to religion.  It has happened in the past.  But the dynamics have changed.  People no longer trust in God to take care of them during times of trouble. Part of this is because the general population is more educated.  Rain doesn't come simply because people pray and God delivers.  Weatherman are better at determining coming rain than prayer.  

I have spent a bit of time in Denmank and Norway recently.  I know that Americans get hysterical over 60% tax rates.  But the people that actually live in those countries love it.  It has taken away many of the fears they have about life.  The government provides excellent health care.  They make sure everyone has good housing and enough food.  The government takes care of the people.  In exchange, the society they live in is very peaceful.  There is no huge gap between the rich and the poor.  The wealth of the country is more evenly distributed.  And the respect for each other is also incredibly high.  I was amazed at how clean everything is.  Yet I never saw a street sweeper.  The people explained to me that it would be a sign of disrespect for others to litter.  What a concept.  That same concept seems to perenate in all aspects of their life.  What religion used to offer, faith that God would take care of you, is now actually fulfilled by the state instead.  Treating people with kindness and civility comes from mutual respect for fellow citizens.  So what role would religion play in such a society?  Hence, those countries are some of the least religious countries in the western world.

 

Quote

 

Countries

Country	Yes, important	No, unimportant
Sweden	17%	82%
Denmark	19%	80%
Norway	21%	78%
Czech Republic	21%	75%

 

 

 

[Gray]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

I think your comment that I put in bold is a very interesting observation.  Some of the comments have talked about when hard times, people will naturally turn to religion.  It has happened in the past.  But the dynamics have changed.  People no longer trust in God to take care of them during times of trouble. Part of this is because the general population is more educated.  Rain doesn't come simply because people pray and God delivers.  Weatherman are better at determining coming rain than prayer.  

I think going forward religion needs to get out of the business of promising divine intervention in one's favor if one performs the prescribed acts and confessions (axial age stuff, really) and get into the business of delivering teachings and spiritual practices that promote internal wholeness and peace.

[clarkgoble]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

I think your comment that I put in bold is a very interesting observation.  Some of the comments have talked about when hard times, people will naturally turn to religion.  It has happened in the past.  But the dynamics have changed.  People no longer trust in God to take care of them during times of trouble. Part of this is because the general population is more educated.  Rain doesn't come simply because people pray and God delivers.  Weatherman are better at determining coming rain than prayer.  

I should note that's not something I came up with. It's a rather common conclusion in cultural evolution studies. Ara Norenzayan in particular has written a lot about that. I credit my brother who works somewhat in that field (although more on the education for large groups side) for bringing it to my attention. He has a book Big Gods about the evolutionary psychology of religion. It and Atran's In Gods We Trust are must reads IMO.

Here's a nice overview of Norenzayan's thesis:

http://www.religiousstudiesproject.com/2014/03/05/an-outline-of-norenzayans-big-gods-by-michael-doane/

If Norenzayans is correct then it would follow that whenever rule of law (or the perception of the trustworthiness of law) breaks down you'll have a religious revival.

Edited July 21, 2017 by clarkgoble

[BlueDreams]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

I think your comment that I put in bold is a very interesting observation.  Some of the comments have talked about when hard times, people will naturally turn to religion.  It has happened in the past.  But the dynamics have changed.  People no longer trust in God to take care of them during times of trouble. Part of this is because the general population is more educated.  Rain doesn't come simply because people pray and God delivers.  Weatherman are better at determining coming rain than prayer.  

I have spent a bit of time in Denmank and Norway recently.  I know that Americans get hysterical over 60% tax rates.  But the people that actually live in those countries love it.  It has taken away many of the fears they have about life.  The government provides excellent health care.  They make sure everyone has good housing and enough food.  The government takes care of the people.  In exchange, the society they live in is very peaceful.  There is no huge gap between the rich and the poor.  The wealth of the country is more evenly distributed.  And the respect for each other is also incredibly high.  I was amazed at how clean everything is.  Yet I never saw a street sweeper.  The people explained to me that it would be a sign of disrespect for others to litter.  What a concept.  That same concept seems to perenate in all aspects of their life.  What religion used to offer, faith that God would take care of you, is now actually fulfilled by the state instead.  Treating people with kindness and civility comes from mutual respect for fellow citizens.  So what role would religion play in such a society?  Hence, those countries are some of the least religious countries in the western world.

I think it's a little oversimplified. There's definitely correlation about religion and government/economic egalitarianism. But it's correlative and when I checked this morning for world stats on religiosity and inequality there were significant differences from country, even if they had a similar level of income inequality (I'm on my cell phone right now, or I would link to the maps I was looking at). I think part of it is also cultural and the way religion is seen by the populations that play into the capacity for religion to have more sticking power in the society. This is hard to see because the ones that are leading the pack in irreligiousity are also have similar roots culturally, both around governing ideologies, religion, and closer economic/government ties. 

You can see that in part in u.s. Populations where irreligiousity have definitely grown among white populations but not as much with minority populations. Some of this that church in certain community groups is also a place for general community identity. Religion in some of these subsets also are seen more as instrumental boons and movers in their communities. 

I think that in a lot of Western-influenced countries there is often more conflict in ideology. It's framed in more either-or constructs that make it hard for religion to maintain its place in public dialogue and general relevance. 

I don't know if that has the same staying power in other areas with a religious majority that isn't doing as certain developed nations have done and still aren't...even as their economy and inequality levels decrease. 

 

With luv, 

BD

[hagoth7]

11 hours ago, california boy said:

...those countries are some of the least religious countries in the western world.

Are they? The least?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/james/1.27?lang=eng&clang=eng#p26

11 hours ago, california boy said:

...So what role would religion play in such a society?

For starters, perhaps serving an ihukom role. Heimdalll / Mimir.  

Guardians/sentinels/reminders of the past. 

A renewed Danevirke/Aggersborg society.  A figurative line in the sand. And a walled defense.

In response to Oehlenschlaeger's Golden Horns.

The "glimpse back" that the Danes/Scandinavians had pleaded for in Adam O's day.

Including who they were, how they got where they are today. 

And who led them there

A hero once renowned throughout early French, Dutch, German, English, and Norse lands.

What he fought and died for.

His brother.

And their mother, who was once renowned in France, Germany, the British Isles, and Italy.

And a young boy. 

Lest they become proud and forgetful.

Ihukommelse ...emphasizing the English meaning of the "else" portion,

As in: Remember, or else. 

Which is the closing verses of the OT.  

And the opening message of the Restoration of all things. 

And when such sentinels have eventually earned their respect.

A reminder of other forgotten things.

A glimpse under the hood. At what that family believed to their very core...the very source that gave them the strength of courage to wade in and serve with all their hearts. And when they learn what they believed...

...some might ask to be taught songs about their past.

So an initial role I see? Sentinals/Valkyrie, later pivoting to scops/troubadours.

Edited July 21, 2017 by hagoth7

[Tacenda]

Watching "The Keepers", it's a Netflix documentary about who killed Sister Cathy Cesnik. I'm on the last segment, and I'm angry with the Catholic church. They continually hid the abuse that the priest raped several women and a young man, maybe more . Cathy was the girls' high school teacher and she was told he was doing this by some of the girls, and this is what probably caused her death. The young man was abused at a school before the priest was transferred to the all girl high school. The Catholic church continually allowed the priest to do harm and then transferred him. They've yet to see who the murderer is, mainly because the Baltimore police botched it and have let records disappear. The church tried to contact survivors to buy their silence also. 

Can't help but mention on this thread how religion can be so evil. The abuses, and the suicides stemming from religion and the guilt they can put on people, speaking of the gays too. Our church needs to worry too, over the gays that have taken their lives. This really makes me angry that religion can do such harm. I think this is what God means when He says not to take His name in vain. It's not totally about saying His name like a swear word. It's doing the evil in His name like the priest did. 

poster removed

 

[The Nehor]

On 7/18/2017 at 11:35 PM, cinepro said:

If by "religion" you mean organized groups that teach doctrines about deities and scriptures based on supernatural evidences and a reliance on "faith", then I think those groups have an uphill battle. 

If you look at the factors that allowed such groups to grow and thrive in the past, it's obvious that the world is changing very, very quickly, and they are failing to adapt.

I think there's also a problem in that religion is best suited to answer the "big" questions (why am I here?  where am I going after I die?) and I don't know that younger generations are as preoccupied with such questions as they might have been in the past.  

If the continued viability of the LDS Church depends on increased birthrates, increased retention of teenagers and young adults, and increased convert baptisms of high-quality converts, then the leaders really need to come up with a game-changing plan.  Because the current framework doesn't seem to be heading in that direction.

I think the big questions are still as prevalent as ever. I think the younger generations are not convinced that the churches have the answers. In stead they turn to philosophy and sometimes nihilism.

I do not see the birthrate saving most churches. That assumes that their children will maintain the faith. LDS have relatively good retention on that metric compared to other faiths and I find ours unsatisfactory.

[Jeanne]

I believe religion will stay..at least maintain..but no longer within the four walls of church..but a community of those who take wisdom and beauty from all things that God has provided.  When we learn to really share and some real unconditional love..religion will find us.

[carbon dioxide]

10 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I believe religion will stay..at least maintain..but no longer within the four walls of church..but a community of those who take wisdom and beauty from all things that God has provided.  When we learn to really share and some real unconditional love..religion will find us.

I am not really sure what any of that means.