When belief hurts others

[Storm Rider]

6 hours ago, california boy said:

It is these kinds of statements that I am so tired of.  (not picking on you, these comments appear in every single gay thread.)

Has ANYONE ever said that they have no control over who they choose to have sex with?  Ever?  Why do we constantly harp on this.  How many threads do we start about straight people having sex.  Most gay people choose to have sex with those that they are attracted to.  In making that choice, most leave the church because they do not believe the church's position is in line with their own personal beliefs about the teachings of Christ.  

Some choose to live a life of celibacy because they believe that the church's teachings are in line with the teachings of Christ. It is not anyone's duty to make a judgement on the choices they have made.  You only have a right to judge your own life and the choices you have made concerning who you have sex with.  

Cal, what makes your position difficult for me to understand is that I have never heard of or read any study that stated gay men have very few sexual partners.  Do you know of any?  Of the studies you have heard of or read how many of them actually clearly stated that gay men have far more sexual partners than....anyone.  It is this behavior of the gay lifestyle that engenders a negative response.  

Having stated that I am not excusing heterosexual males from being promiscuous. Who has not read in newspapers decades ago about some basketball player having slept with thousands of women?  But, it seems like the relative comparisons is that gay men have indiscriminate sexual encounters, on average, far more than any of their counterparts - male or female.  Why?

If this is accurate why would you tire of those who criticize this behavior?  Me thinks sometimes you are trying to get others to only use rose-colored glasses when discussing the gay lifestyle.  

And, I still think you are right about a great number of things - in other words, we have far more in common than not.  When the topic of sin comes up there are no innocent humans and none of us should fear identifying what sin is and what it is not.  After that we really do need to remember that we love one another honestly and sincerely.  I feel I do that far more often than not.  

[Tacenda]

Watching "What Would You Do", on ABC right now. The show just announced that the next segment the actors are going to act out a gay young man coming out to his Mormon parents. I wonder what's going to happen, interesting that they label the parents, Mormon. 

[changed]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Cal, what makes your position difficult for me to understand is that I have never heard of or read any study that stated gay men have very few sexual partners.  Do you know of any?  

 

I have two relatives who are both married to partners of the same sex. 

 

One, a cousin, was gay from a very early age.  He went to his pastor to try and get help (different church) and had a very bad experience with his pastor.  This cousin married - and they have had a very happy marriage, they are not promiscuous, have been nothing but wonderful family members, very thoughtful and caring people the both of them.

Another family member, after two failed heterosexual marriage, decided they would try the LBGT community instead.  I do not think this person was "born that way", but they do seem much happier and more stable in their same-sex marriage. 

 

A few months ago I lost someone I was pretty close to to Aids.  He had been married a couple of times, but he was also a very spiritual person.  He played the organ every Sunday for his church, was always interested to learn about the spiritual journey of others.  I spent the entire day with him the day before he died.  He was so happy and energetic, his death the next morning was a complete shock to everyone - I had no idea what he was fighting against.  His funeral was one of the most well attended I have ever been to - the stories that were told of people whose lives he had saved, from all the people he had helped and saved somehow... the music was amazing.  

 

Before anyone starts looking at statistics, it's best to first know some LGBT people.  They are people just like you and me, each unique, each getting through life the best they are able.   

When talking with my LGBT relatives about my faith (I am Mormon), I equated it to Catholic priests choosing not to marry, or Nuns choosing to give up their sexual life (my relatives are Catholic).  I told them God asks the Abrahamic sacrifice from all of us, and it seems like it is something different for each person out there.  Some women sacrifice their career to have children, some converts sacrifice the approval and love of their families.  I knew someone who was an accomplished bar tender prior to converting - they gave up their career, the bar tending degree they had earned became worthless, they had to start over from scratch... I also believe that what someone is asked to sacrifice - that is between them and God.  That if they decide to take some spiritual journey, I wish them strength and comfort as they are tested, then dragged over the edge, and shown how helpless they are without God.

We are all sinners... I hate this little game of which sin is the worst.  want to know which sin I think is the worst?  ... just think through the personality type of the religiously proud people who killed Jesus - that religious goodie-two-shoes prideful personality that killed Jesus?  That's the one I hate the worst.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by changed

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Watching "What Would You Do", on ABC right now. The show just announced that the next segment the actors are going to act out a gay young man coming out to his Mormon parents. I wonder what's going to happen, interesting that they label the parents, Mormon. 

I can only guess that it's because Mormons are so frequently in the crosshairs of the gay rights juggernaut, and the national mass media do so love to exploit stereotypes. 

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, changed said:

I have two relatives who are both married to partners of the same sex. 

One, a cousin, was gay from a very early age.  He went to his pastor to try and get help (different church) and had a very bad experience with his pastor.  This cousin married - and they have had a very happy marriage, they are not promiscuous, have been nothing but wonderful family members, very thoughtful and caring people the both of them.

Another family member, after two failed heterosexual marriage, decided they would try the LBGT community instead.  I do not think this person was "born that way", but they do seem much happier and more stable in their same-sex marriage. 

A few months ago I lost someone I was pretty close to to Aids.  He had been married a couple of times, but he was also a very spiritual person.  He played the organ every Sunday for his church, was always interested to learn about the spiritual journey of others.  I spent the entire day with him the day before he died.  He was so happy and energetic, his death the next morning was a complete shock to everyone - I had no idea what he was fighting against.  His funeral was one of the most well attended I have ever been to - the stories that were told of people whose lives he had saved, from all the people he had helped and saved somehow... the music was amazing.  

Before anyone starts looking at statistics, it's best to first know some LGBT people.  They are people just like you and me, each unique, each getting through life the best they are able.   

When talking with my LGBT relatives about my faith (I am Mormon), I equated it to Catholic priests choosing not to marry, or Nuns choosing to give up their sexual life (my relatives are Catholic).  I told them God asks the Abrahamic sacrifice from all of us, and it seems like it is something different for each person out there.  Some women sacrifice their career to have children, some converts sacrifice the approval and love of their families.  I knew someone who was an accomplished bar tender prior to converting - they gave up their career, the bar tending degree they had earned became worthless, they had to start over from scratch... I also believe that what someone is asked to sacrifice - that is between them and God.  That if they decide to take some spiritual journey, I wish them strength and comfort as they are tested, then dragged over the edge, and shown how helpless they are without God.

We are all sinners... I hate this little game of which sin is the worst.  want to know which sin I think is the worst?  ... just think through the personality type of the religiously proud people who killed Jesus - that religious goodie-two-shoes prideful personality that killed Jesus?  That's the one I hate the worst.

You entered this comment in a response to one of mine - it may help if you read each of my comments.  I don't see anything in what you have said that I disagree with or that conflicts with anything I have said.

Cheers,

[USU78]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

So absurd and just wrong, USU

There is no comparison in the treatment of the two groups (current LDS and blacks)

I agree. Homosexuals are media and popular culture heroes, immune from any criticism, no matter how well deserved.

Mormons are despised, demonized, except for when they're mocked.

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I agree. Homosexuals are media and popular culture heroes, immune from any criticism, no matter how well deserved.

Mormons are despised, demonized, except for when they're mocked.

Misappropriation of the song for playing an inflammatory victim game, imo.  It was never just about being targeted for mocking or even hate or just about treatment in the media.  It was about oppression/subservience.  As I said above, Mormons are not now being enslaved.  Nor are we constantly mocked throughout the world.  Gays have it much worse worldwide, we (Mormons) are hardly noticed outside of the US and here at worst it is ridicule we have to put up with.  Gays are often still mocked and bullied in the US even if the mainstream media tends to remove it.  And the mistreatment of blacks in our current national culture is hardly admirable as well. It is hard to continue to see your complaints as credible when you make such over the top comparisons.  

So Mormons get made fun of from time to time.  When was the last time you heard of someone beating up or killing someone just for being Mormon?  When are our churches burnt down, bombed, or vandalized on a regular basis?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/12/hate_in_america_a_list_of_racism_bigotry_and_abuse_since_the_election.html

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765635263/Sikhs-Mormons-Buddhists-others-added-to-hate-crime-stats.html

https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2015/tables-and-data-declarations/1tabledatadecpdf

8 single biased hate crimes against Mormons compared to 1745 for blacks and 1044 for LGBT.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Calm

[california boy]

Scott, you are not defending the church's position on gay marriage.  You are attacking the right of others to practice gay marriage.  That is the difference.  

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Cal, what makes your position difficult for me to understand is that I have never heard of or read any study that stated gay men have very few sexual partners.  Do you know of any?  Of the studies you have heard of or read how many of them actually clearly stated that gay men have far more sexual partners than....anyone.  It is this behavior of the gay lifestyle that engenders a negative response.  

Having stated that I am not excusing heterosexual males from being promiscuous. Who has not read in newspapers decades ago about some basketball player having slept with thousands of women?  But, it seems like the relative comparisons is that gay men have indiscriminate sexual encounters, on average, far more than any of their counterparts - male or female.  Why?

If this is accurate why would you tire of those who criticize this behavior?  Me thinks sometimes you are trying to get others to only use rose-colored glasses when discussing the gay lifestyle.  

And, I still think you are right about a great number of things - in other words, we have far more in common than not.  When the topic of sin comes up there are no innocent humans and none of us should fear identifying what sin is and what it is not.  After that we really do need to remember that we love one another honestly and sincerely.  I feel I do that far more often than not.  

You may have missed my point.  Why don't we constantly say being a single man is not a sin, acting on that lifestyle is a sin?  

Certainly you are not suggesting that every gay man has multiple sex partners.  Yet, that seems to be the judgement Mormons  need to make on every gay person.  Mormons seem to be way more concerned about the sex lives of a gay person then they do a straight man.  Why?

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, california boy said:

Certainly you are not suggesting that every gay man has multiple sex partners.  Yet, that seems to be the judgement Mormons  need to make on every gay person.  Mormons seem to be way more concerned about the sex lives of a gay person then they do a straight man.  Why?

You seem to be making inaccurate global statements.

CFR that homosexual sexual behaviour is talked about more by LDS that heterosexual fornication.

 

[california boy]

3 hours ago, changed said:

 

I have two relatives who are both married to partners of the same sex. 

 

One, a cousin, was gay from a very early age.  He went to his pastor to try and get help (different church) and had a very bad experience with his pastor.  This cousin married - and they have had a very happy marriage, they are not promiscuous, have been nothing but wonderful family members, very thoughtful and caring people the both of them.

Another family member, after two failed heterosexual marriage, decided they would try the LBGT community instead.  I do not think this person was "born that way", but they do seem much happier and more stable in their same-sex marriage. 

 

A few months ago I lost someone I was pretty close to to Aids.  He had been married a couple of times, but he was also a very spiritual person.  He played the organ every Sunday for his church, was always interested to learn about the spiritual journey of others.  I spent the entire day with him the day before he died.  He was so happy and energetic, his death the next morning was a complete shock to everyone - I had no idea what he was fighting against.  His funeral was one of the most well attended I have ever been to - the stories that were told of people whose lives he had saved, from all the people he had helped and saved somehow... the music was amazing.  

 

Before anyone starts looking at statistics, it's best to first know some LGBT people.  They are people just like you and me, each unique, each getting through life the best they are able.   

When talking with my LGBT relatives about my faith (I am Mormon), I equated it to Catholic priests choosing not to marry, or Nuns choosing to give up their sexual life (my relatives are Catholic).  I told them God asks the Abrahamic sacrifice from all of us, and it seems like it is something different for each person out there.  Some women sacrifice their career to have children, some converts sacrifice the approval and love of their families.  I knew someone who was an accomplished bar tender prior to converting - they gave up their career, the bar tending degree they had earned became worthless, they had to start over from scratch... I also believe that what someone is asked to sacrifice - that is between them and God.  That if they decide to take some spiritual journey, I wish them strength and comfort as they are tested, then dragged over the edge, and shown how helpless they are without God.

We are all sinners... I hate this little game of which sin is the worst.  want to know which sin I think is the worst?  ... just think through the personality type of the religiously proud people who killed Jesus - that religious goodie-two-shoes prideful personality that killed Jesus?  That's the one I hate the worst.

 

 

That was really beautiful.  You presented my point way better than I did myself.  For some reason Mormons want to control the sins of gay people more than any other group.  It is like gay people have been singled out as the on issue that needs their intervention even outside the church.  Gay people are first people like anyone else.  Some are good, some are bad, some are tall, some are short, some are spiritual, some are not.  

Sometimes I think Mormons want to have a big G branded on every gay person's head so that every move they make can be watched and judged. The biggest sins I need to worry about are my own.  This isn't about defending Mormon beliefs, this is judging and imposing those beliefs on others. That is all I am saying.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, CV75 said:

That various forms of marriage should be legal choices is a matter of public debate, which in the USA has been decided with the participation of the religious voice that for generations enjoyed both constitutional (as in D&C 101) and popular support in influencing marriage codes.

Recent strategies and tactics on related fronts have betrayed a tendency to treat the notion of religious protection with contempt, and less formally among some LDS, to rail against marriage doctrine on the basis of viewing the lifting of the priesthood ban through a narrow social lens.

In the absence of direct theocratic rule by God, we are left only with His inspired Constitution -- which already embodies rights which have been more broadly promulgated in our time, by the supreme judicial body which has the final say in such matters.  What's not to like in an open society in which freedom of speech and religion are fully honored?  How else would we be able to preach our beliefs unhindered?  Majority rule of the mob does not determine what is legal.  The voice of the people is not the voice of God.

[california boy]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

You seem to be making inaccurate global statements.If

CFR that homosexual sexual behaviour is talked about more by LDS that heterosexual fornication.

 

When is the last time any Mormon said to a straight person, "It is not being a single man that is a sin, it is acting on that lifestyle." When is the last time someone brought up studies on the sex lives of single men and then condemned the whole group because of those statistics.  Why are there countless threads on gay behavior and not countless threads on fornication?  You honestly don't  see a bit of an obsession with gay peoples lives and the choices they make in the number of threads on this board? You don't see a bit of an obsession with changing the legal right of gays to marry just like everyone else, even OUTSIDE the church? What difference does it make to any Mormon whether a gay person is allowed to legally marry.  Does it effect their lives one bit?  Do Mormons really need to go on endless threads condemning those marriages and quoting Supreme Court justices that voted against that right?  

Yet you ask for a CFR on this one issue.  

 

 

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I can only guess that it's because Mormons are so frequently in the crosshairs of the gay rights juggernaut, and the national mass media do so love to exploit stereotypes. 

I can only guess that it's because gays are so frequently in the crosshairs of the Mormon maffia and the mass media is fascinated with the Mormon obsession with gays.

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, california boy said:

When is the last time any Mormon said to a straight person, "It is not being a single man that is a sin, it is acting on that lifestyle." When is the last time someone brought up studies on the sex lives of single men and then condemned the whole group because of those statistics.  Why are there countless threads on gay behavior and not countless threads on fornication?  You honestly don't  see a bit of an obsession with gay peoples lives and the choices they make in the number of threads on this board? You don't see a bit of an obsession with changing the legal right of gays to marry just like everyone else, even OUTSIDE the church? What difference does it make to any Mormon whether a gay person is allowed to legally marry.  Does it effect their lives one bit?  Do Mormons really need to go on endless threads condemning those marriages and quoting Supreme Court justices that voted against that right?  

Yet you ask for a CFR on this one issue.  

Is there anyone on the board who is defending heterosexual fornication?  Why else would there be any threads about it?

Are there not endless threads about Mormon people's lives and the choices they make?  Does that mean all those who are not Mormon posting in these threads are a bit obsessed about Mormon lives?  And if someone makes a thread about Mormon polygamy and there are those few non Mormons who go on and on about early Mormons' sex lives and their choices to live plural marriage, does that mean all those other non Mormons who post in those threads are also obsessed with the sex lives of Mormons?

There are a number of believing Mormons who have said they support or are neutral about the legalization of gay marriage.  So are those obsessed with the sex lives of gays? 

And are the threads about gay promiscuity or gay marriage or gay activism?  They are not the same nor would they be even if there was a poster or two who in every thread made a comment about gay promiscuity.

What is the percentage of Mormons on this board that are in these threads making claims that all gays are promiscuous?  It is a small minority of active posters on the board.  I have never even heard at church in my conversations a comment that all gays are promiscuous though I would not be surprised to hear that there were some that do.  I have two relatives out of hundreds that have made that comment even though we have had many conversations about the political impact of gay marriage.

Yes, there are some Mormons who are obsessed with the issue, possibly even on this board though most posting consistently in these threads seem more obsessed with the potential legal impact on themselves and others than the sex life of gays.  That behaviour when it does occur doesn't automatically apply to the whole group or even automatically make it a typical behaviour any more than there being some gays who are promiscuous make it a constant or even average behaviour for gays.

If you are concerned about Mormon making biased, generalized statements about gays, it seems appropriate to me to be cautious about do that to any other group, including Mormons.

I find it offensive when gay marriage is dismissed by claims of extreme promiscuity or risks of pedophilia.  I report these comments when I see them ( which is not often these days as .I tend to skip these threads as repeating the same stuff for years now, I know of at least six other active believing posters who have told me they do the same...not exactly supportive for Mormons being obsessed).  I know of others reporting them.  Most of the time if I am paying close enough attention, I am seeing threads getting closed and posters banned (though it can take time asmods are sometimes around and sometimes not)...and you can see this in the hints and outright open frustrations that some have about not being able to talk openly on the board about all the problems that they see as existing with gay marriage or The so-called gay lifestyle (as if gays were monolithic) and in the past board limit on one gay topic thread at a time.  If Mormons were obsessed with gays' sex lives wouldn't the board have an open limit on such rather than only allowing one because the majority of the board is weary of the subject?  It is extremely strange to have reported a post for making an attack with the promiscuity claim only to next read how I as a Mormon am obsessed with gays' sex lives, etc.

Credibilty suffers when someone makes extreme or overly generalized statements.  People do not persuade by doing so, imo, only those who already see the extremes as reality are impressed from what I have seen here and elsewhere.

Your arguments would improve drastically if you identified who was arguing what and dealt with them rathera than waste time, effort, and credibility shaming? perhaps, but at least criticizing even those who are more supportive of your own arguments than not.  Nothing tends to dim enthusiasm like a slap in the face from a supposed ally.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is there anyone on the board who is defending heterosexual fortification? 

I think you mean fornication. (Darned auto-correct.)

[Calm]

This thread was started by stem, who as far as I remember is either neutral or pro gay marriage and I don't remember him going on about the promiscuity of gays.  He can of course correct me if I am wrong.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Scott, you are not defending the church's position on gay marriage.  You are attacking the right of others to practice gay marriage.  That is the difference.  

I reject this accusation.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

This thread was started by stem, who as far as I remember is either neutral or pro gay marriage and I don't remember him going on about the promiscuity of gays.  He can of course correct me if I am wrong.

He's not only pro gay marriage, he wants to see it approved in the Church. And he's so certain it will happen, he had me start a countdown timer for it happening within the next 20 years.

I wish I could give a clock reading, but my iPod touch died several weeks ago, and when that happened I lost all of the content. Alas, the countdown timer app was not backed up on the cloud, so all of my clocks simply vanished into the cyber mist.

Fortunately, my guitar tabs did not suffer the same fate. I had hundreds of songs saved, and they were all backed up, so I was able to recover them all.

Moral: If you can save your stuff on the cloud, you had better do it.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

I think you mean fornication. (Darned auto-correct.)

Thanks.  For some reason, I was sounding it out while spelling it...strange since I have never had a problem remembering...and somehow I made it fornification, which corrected to the other.  I have decided I was a much, much better speller before autocorrect, though my husband who was a horrendous speller has greatly improved since it corrects it immediately.

[Scott Lloyd]

50 minutes ago, california boy said:

I can only guess that it's because gays are so frequently in the crosshairs of the Mormon maffia and the mass media is fascinated with the Mormon obsession with gays.

I reject this one too.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Thanks.  For some reason, I was sounding it out while spelling it...strange since I have never had a problem remembering...and somehow I made it fornification, which corrected to the other.  I have decided I was a much, much better speller before autocorrect, though my husband who was a horrendous speller has greatly improved since it corrects it immediately.

That reminds me that when I was growing up, one of my peers couldn't pronounce the word correctly and kept saying "fornification." I found it humorous then and still do.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 Majority rule of the mob does not determine what is legal. 

At the same time, judicial fiat does not negate what is right and proper. (See the quote from Elder (now President) Russell M. Nelson in my sig line below. See also the one from Elder Neil L. Andersen.)

Edited July 15, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

Recent Surveys thread started by JLHProf was not about gay marriage or homosexuality, but about change in attitudes:

"But perhaps we can focus on WHY the Church membership views are changing instead of whether we think this is right/wrong or good/bad."

I am guessing from the last two pages it got shut for being political spinning of rules or Godwin's.  If the latter, it was a Mormon who got dinged.

---

The Rainbow Flag thread was started by a nonMormon, Five Solas.

------

The Gay Beehive thread was started by cinepro, who is Mormon, don't know his stance on gay marriage, but I don't remember any obsessing over the alleged gay lifestyle.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Calm

[california boy]

33 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is there anyone on the board who is defending heterosexual fornication?  Why else would there be any threads about it?

Are there not endless threads about Mormon people's lives and the choices they make?  Does that mean all those who are not Mormon posting in these threads are a bit obsessed about Mormon lives?  And if someone makes a thread about Mormon polygamy and there are those few non Mormons who go on and on about early Mormons' sex lives and their choices to live plural marriage, does that mean all those other non Mormons who post in those threads are also obsessed with the sex lives of Mormons?

There are a number of believing Mormons who have said they support or are neutral about the legalization of gay marriage.  So are those obsessed with the sex lives of gays? 

And are the threads about gay promiscuity or gay marriage or gay activism?  They are not the same nor would they be even if there was a poster or two who in every thread made a comment about gay promiscuity.

What is the percentage of Mormons on this board that are in these threads making claims that all gays are promiscuous?  It is a small minority of active posters on the board.  I have never even heard at church in my conversations a comment that all gays are promiscuous though I would not be surprised to hear that there were some that do.  I have two relatives out of hundreds that have made that comment even though we have had many conversations about the political impact of gay marriage.

Yes, there are some Mormons who are obsessed with the issue, possibly even on this board though most posting consistently in these threads seem more obsessed with the potential legal impact on themselves and others than the sex life of gays.  That behaviour when it does occur doesn't automatically apply to the whole group or even automatically make it a typical behaviour any more than there being some gays who are promiscuous make it a constant or even average behaviour for gays.

If you are concerned about Mormon making biased, generalized statements about gays, it seems appropriate to me to be cautious about do that to any other group, including Mormons.

I find it offensive when gay marriage is dismissed by claims of extreme promiscuity or risks of pedophilia.  I report these comments when I see them ( which is not often these days as .I tend to skip these threads as repeating the same stuff for years now, I know of at least six other active believing posters who have told me they do the same...not exactly supportive for Mormons being obsessed).  I know of others reporting them.  Most of the time if I am paying close enough attention, I am seeing threads getting closed and posters banned (though it can take time asmods are sometimes around and sometimes not)...and you can see this in the hints and outright open frustrations that some have about not being able to talk openly on the board about all the problems that they see as existing with gay marriage or The so-called gay lifestyle (as if gays were monolithic) and in the past board limit on one gay topic thread at a time.  If Mormons were obsessed with gays' sex lives wouldn't the board have an open limit on such rather than only allowing one because the majority of the board is weary of the subject?  It is extremely strange to have reported a post for making an attack with the promiscuity claim only to next read how I as a Mormon am obsessed with gays' sex lives, etc.

Credibilty suffers when someone makes extreme or overly generalized statements.  People do not persuade by doing so, imo, only those who already see the extremes as reality are impressed from what I have seen here and elsewhere.

Your arguments would improve drastically if you identified who was arguing what and dealt with them rathera than waste time, effort, and credibility shaming? perhaps, but at least criticizing even those who are more supportive of your own arguments than not.  Nothing tends to dim enthusiasm like a slap in the face from a supposed ally.

You have convinced me that I am wrong.  I apologize and withdraw my comment.  I admit I am a bit sensitive on these issues.