Jews in Mourning for Three Weeks

[Robert F. Smith]

I just rec'd an email from an organization in Israel stating in part the following:

Quote

On this day [17 Tammuz] in both 586 BC and in AD 70, the walls of Jerusalem were breached by the Babylonians and the Romans respectively.

And in yet another remarkable coincidence, the First and Second Temples were destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BC and by the Romans in AD 70 on the 9th of Av, three weeks later.

In Judaism, the breach of Jerusalem's walls and the subsequent destruction of the Temple is considered no mere coincidence. 

Tonite, Monday nite at dusk, 17 Tammuz begins -- which means three weeks of mourning for the Jews.  As best we can determine (and according to the late David Noel Freedman), these were real historical events, beginning and ending on the same days in the Jewish calendar.  Can we simply chalk such parallels up to mere secular coincidence.  Or is something else going on?

[USU78]

Our cousins have great reason to mourn

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I just rec'd an email from an organization in Israel stating in part the following:

Tonite, Monday nite at dusk, 17 Tammuz begins -- which means three weeks of mourning for the Jews.  As best we can determine (and according to the late David Noel Freedman), these were real historical events, beginning and ending on the same days in the Jewish calendar.  Can we simply chalk such parallels up to mere secular coincidence.  Or is something else going on?

For all of my study, and reading...little that happens in Israel is coincidence. Everything has meaning to their history, and to the history of the world, and the world to come. 

[The Nehor]

I wish they would quit mourning it and build another one. After nearly two millenia it is probably time.

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I just rec'd an email from an organization in Israel stating in part the following:

Tonite, Monday nite at dusk, 17 Tammuz begins -- which means three weeks of mourning for the Jews.  As best we can determine (and according to the late David Noel Freedman), these were real historical events, beginning and ending on the same days in the Jewish calendar.  Can we simply chalk such parallels up to mere secular coincidence.  Or is something else going on?

Might the attacks have had something to do with the time of year (weather, day length, agricultural cycles) that was best suited for making such attacks?

Israel--this time of year is during/after the wheat harvest, and just before/start of the grape harvest. Egypt: rainy season just prior to the Nile flooding. Babylon: hot, dry season. Good time to be out of town for the attackers, the attacked are preoccupied with the harvests.

Of course we can read something into the wheat (body) and grapes (blood), where these graces do not cover the attacked.

Edited July 11, 2017 by CV75

[Robert F. Smith]

21 hours ago, CV75 said:

Might the attacks have had something to do with the time of year (weather, day length, agricultural cycles) that was best suited for making such attacks?

Israel--this time of year is during/after the wheat harvest, and just before/start of the grape harvest. Egypt: rainy season just prior to the Nile flooding. Babylon: hot, dry season. Good time to be out of town for the attackers, the attacked are preoccupied with the harvests.

Of course we can read something into the wheat (body) and grapes (blood), where these graces do not cover the attacked.

Of course, you are correct.  The time of year "when kings go forth" (2 Sam 11:1, 1 Chron 20:1) would generally be when it was dry.  No use marching through mud, or failing to bring in the  harvest before trapsing off to battle.  Also, if the invaders timed it right, they could commandeer the crops just brought in by their enemies.  Same was true in the Book of Mormon. No sense in going to war in the rainy season -- noted by J. Sorenson, G. Thomasson, and others.

So Mesoamerican warfare generally took place during  months 11 - 13.  https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Warfare/Seasonality .

However, this cannot in any sense account for the exact month and day for both destructions.  That is extremely odd -- like modern quantum entanglement and teleportation.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Of course, you are correct.  The time of year "when kings go forth" (2 Sam 11:1, 1 Chron 20:1) would generally be when it was dry.  No use marching through mud, or failing to bring in the  harvest before trapsing off to battle.  Also, if the invaders timed it right, they could commandeer the crops just brought in by their enemies.  Same was true in the Book of Mormon. No sense in going to war in the rainy season -- noted by J. Sorenson, G. Thomasson, and others.

So Mesoamerican warfare generally took place during  months 11 - 13.  https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Warfare/Seasonality .

However, this cannot in any sense account for the exact month and day for both destructions.  That is extremely odd -- like modern quantum entanglement and teleportation.

How confident are we that these dates are precisely correct? These are the traditional dates, but are they accurate?

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Of course, you are correct.  The time of year "when kings go forth" (2 Sam 11:1, 1 Chron 20:1) would generally be when it was dry.  No use marching through mud, or failing to bring in the  harvest before trapsing off to battle.  Also, if the invaders timed it right, they could commandeer the crops just brought in by their enemies.  Same was true in the Book of Mormon. No sense in going to war in the rainy season -- noted by J. Sorenson, G. Thomasson, and others.

So Mesoamerican warfare generally took place during  months 11 - 13.  https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Warfare/Seasonality .

However, this cannot in any sense account for the exact month and day for both destructions.  That is extremely odd -- like modern quantum entanglement and teleportation.

Could the dates have been retroactively applied?

If both events did indeed occur on the exact dates (and I understand the ancient Mesoamericans adjusted dates in this way, to imbue the event with meaning, honor, spiritual power -- numerologically speaking, a sense of foreordination or destiny, etc.), then there might be something to analyze in relation to Daniel's prophecies (and the one in Revelation 12) that have "times, time and half a time" attached to them.

Edited July 12, 2017 by CV75

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Could the dates have been retroactively applied?

If both events did indeed occur on the exact dates (and I understand the ancient Mesoamericans adjusted dates in this way, to imbue the event with meaning, honor, spiritual power -- numerologically speaking, a sense of foreordination or destiny, etc.), then there might be something to analyze in relation to Daniel's prophecies (and the one in Revelation 12) that have "times, time and half a time" attached to them.

I study the Mesoamerican dating system and the fatalistic ideology connected with it in my “The Role of Cyclical Fatalism Among the Maya,” 2011, online at  https://www.scribd.com/doc/74773355/Cyclic-Fatalism-Among-the-Maya , and http://www.bmaf.org/node/386 .  The dates are systematic and unchangeable, and the Maya seemed resigned to their fate. 

You might want to compare current research on quantum entanglement,  in which “'retrocausality' suggests that a particle can run backwards through time to the point where it is entangled and affects its partner that way," i.e., "when two particles interact, they become entangled on a quantum, sub-atomic level and rid themselves of their individual probabilities."  This entails "spooky action at a distance" and  "there is nothing in the laws of physics that states that time should move forward, with physicists saying that time could have gone backwards if things had panned out differently from the Big Bang, experts wanted to see whether this is yet another rule that quantum mechanics ignores."  http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/826886/time-travel-quantum-mechanics-einstein-retrocausality .

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

How confident are we that these dates are precisely correct? These are the traditional dates, but are they accurate?

The best scholars accept them.  Of course, one did not know at the outset that a second destruction would come on the same exact day centuries later -- after the first date was set in stone. However, the Romans and Babylonians kept excellent records.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I study the Mesoamerican dating system and the fatalistic ideology connected with it in my “The Role of Cyclical Fatalism Among the Maya,” 2011, online at  https://www.scribd.com/doc/74773355/Cyclic-Fatalism-Among-the-Maya , and http://www.bmaf.org/node/386 .  The dates are systematic and unchangeable, and the Maya seemed resigned to their fate. 

You might want to compare current research on quantum entanglement,  in which “'retrocausality' suggests that a particle can run backwards through time to the point where it is entangled and affects its partner that way," i.e., "when two particles interact, they become entangled on a quantum, sub-atomic level and rid themselves of their individual probabilities."  This entails "spooky action at a distance" and  "there is nothing in the laws of physics that states that time should move forward, with physicists saying that time could have gone backwards if things had panned out differently from the Big Bang, experts wanted to see whether this is yet another rule that quantum mechanics ignores."  http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/826886/time-travel-quantum-mechanics-einstein-retrocausality .

I'm not seeing how historical events follow the "rules" of quantum behavior, as amazing as either is. Unless quantum behavior, ruled by the light of Christ, can be organized to impose upon the whole, but that would render the events and their perpetrators mere clockwork (not a function of the attackers' agency).

I do see a "chiasma" of sorts in the order of the four events. And where 21 days has a 7 day period in each of the first, middle and last places, or five days for each of the four  "strokes" of the "x" with one day occupying the intersection.

I can't remember the source (Schele?) and it may be dated by now, but she discussed the retroactive adjustment of dates by recorders to prove a point as well as using the calendar in the timing of planned, fatalistic-oriented events.

Maybe the Romans added a layer of psychology by reenacting the destruction as the Babylonians did...?

Edited July 12, 2017 by CV75

[cinepro]

On 7/10/2017 at 5:21 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

I just rec'd an email from an organization in Israel stating in part the following:

Tonite, Monday nite at dusk, 17 Tammuz begins -- which means three weeks of mourning for the Jews.  As best we can determine (and according to the late David Noel Freedman), these were real historical events, beginning and ending on the same days in the Jewish calendar.  Can we simply chalk such parallels up to mere secular coincidence.  Or is something else going on?

I'm not a professional statistician, but I think if there was an equal likelihood for an attack beginning or ending on any day of the year, then the odds would be 1/365 * 1/365 = 1/133,225.

Those are slim odds, but I don't think they reach the point that a supernatural explanation is demanded.  Things with slimmer odds than that happen all the time and are easily recognized as a coincidence. 

If there are other factors that make an attack on a certain day or month more likely, and an attack ending within a certain time-frame more likely, then those odds would be adjusted downward.

Edited July 12, 2017 by cinepro

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I'm not seeing how historical events follow the "rules" of quantum behavior, as amazing as either is. Unless quantum behavior, ruled by the light of Christ, can be organized to impose upon the whole, but that would render the events and their perpetrators mere clockwork (not a function of the attackers' agency).

I was thinking and comparing only by analogy, and you have taken it too far.

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I do see a "chiasma" of sorts in the order of the four events. And where 21 days has a 7 day period in each of the first, middle and last places, or five days for each of the four  "strokes" of the "x" with one day occupying the intersection.

I can't remember the source (Schele?) and it may be dated by now, but she discussed the retroactive adjustment of dates by recorders to prove a point as well as using the calendar in the timing of planned, fatalistic-oriented events.

If you can find that source, I would appreciate it.  I attempted in my paper to show how all of those Mayan synchronisms worked, and found none in which anyone adjusted the dates.  It would have been like asking a modern astronomer to phony up some computer-controlled planetarium presentation -- the math and sky would immediately expose it as a faud.  The systems are constant, mechanical ,and predictable.

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Maybe the Romans added a layer of psychology by reenacting the destruction as the Babylonians did...?

The problem is that, in the midst of battle, the Romans were oblivious to events which took place around 7 centuries before.   It is much harder to believe that such events would be artificially timed.  And for what purpose?  There was no prophecy to fulfill.  No chronological sequence to parallel.  Only in retrospect did it become apparent that there was such a synchronism.  And even that doesn't fit any religious dictum or ideological need.  There are plenty of other events which do fit sacred time:  The return of the Jews, the Restoration of all things, and I can find plenty of such synchronisms in LDS and Jewish history.  But not for this synchronism of destruction.  One of those oddities seeking a purpose or rationale and finding none.  Maybe the reason will become apparent to us on the other side of the veil.

[Robert F. Smith]

9 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I'm not a professional statistician, but I think if there was an equal likelihood for an attack beginning or ending on any day of the year, then the odds would be 1/365 * 1/365 = 1/133,225.

Those are slim odds, but I don't think they reach the point that a supernatural explanation is demanded.  Things with slimmer odds than that happen all the time and are easily recognized as a coincidence. 

If there are other factors that make an attack on a certain day or month more likely, and an attack ending within a certain time-frame more likely, then those odds would be adjusted downward.

You are right.  No sacred explanation is necessary, and it could be just a series of coincidences.  Even events which seem very unlikely do occur.  And the synchronism of these destructions doesn't seem to carry any prophetic meaning, nor to fit any apriori ideological or religious need.  This isn't like the prediction of Jeremiah that the exile would last 70 years -- which was fulfilled.

[deli_llama]

"All of this has happened before, and it will all happen again."

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I was thinking and comparing only by analogy, and you have taken it too far.

If you can find that source, I would appreciate it.  I attempted in my paper to show how all of those Mayan synchronisms worked, and found none in which anyone adjusted the dates.  It would have been like asking a modern astronomer to phony up some computer-controlled planetarium presentation -- the math and sky would immediately expose it as a faud.  The systems are constant, mechanical ,and predictable.

The problem is that, in the midst of battle, the Romans were oblivious to events which took place around 7 centuries before.   It is much harder to believe that such events would be artificially timed.  And for what purpose?  There was no prophecy to fulfill.  No chronological sequence to parallel.  Only in retrospect did it become apparent that there was such a synchronism.  And even that doesn't fit any religious dictum or ideological need.  There are plenty of other events which do fit sacred time:  The return of the Jews, the Restoration of all things, and I can find plenty of such synchronisms in LDS and Jewish history.  But not for this synchronism of destruction.  One of those oddities seeking a purpose or rationale and finding none.  Maybe the reason will become apparent to us on the other side of the veil.

OK the quantum physics was an analogy. I was wondering why you brought it up… lol

In reverse of deciding on auspicious dates for events like marriages, battles, coronations, etc., day-keepers occasionally took some license in recording such events and others as royal births, unforeseen tragedies, disasters, windfalls, etc.; "the official story" for the sake of posterity. I've gotten rid of my books on Mayan civilization, so I'll keep Googling.

For what it's worth, some rabbis hold that the observance of the fast changed from the 9th to the 17th after the Roman attack ( http://www.nottinghamrabbi.com/page181.html), so perhaps the synchronicity is only symbolic. But even if that is not the case, considering how long the Jews observed this fast, the Romans must have had access to their history, or knowledge of their customs, and could have planned the attack to coincide with this observance as a part of a psychological strategy to demoralize them.

I’m all for sacred time, hence my mention of the analysis of prophesied timing in terms of 21 day increments. Sounds like you've found plenty of others!

EDIT: Googles sources, a poor substitute for the books:

“All these tablets connect events in the present with events in the past. The Maya loved to connect the king’s ceremonies to events in the mythical past. In fact, it is possible that they fudged a little on the dates to make the symmetries that they display in the monuments.” http://www.perspectivedigest.org/article/73/archives/17-3/a-survival-guide-to-mayan-prophecies

“But it is true that Maya priests and time keepers loved to play with time and numerology, seeing how far back and forward they could go numerically. Another pastime of theirs was to show that current events, like the accession of kings, dedication of temples, or victories in battle were linked to distant past events performed by ancestors and the gods. They probably even fudged their calculations a bit to get real events to match up with mythical ones. If a king took the throne on a Calendar Round date or period ending that was the same as when a divine ancestor performed some great feat or important ritual, it was evidence of his divine authority and right to rule.” http://bmaf.org/articles/maya_predict_end_workd__johnson

Edited July 12, 2017 by CV75

[RevTestament]

On 7/10/2017 at 6:21 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

I just rec'd an email from an organization in Israel stating in part the following:

Tonite, Monday nite at dusk, 17 Tammuz begins -- which means three weeks of mourning for the Jews.  As best we can determine (and according to the late David Noel Freedman), these were real historical events, beginning and ending on the same days in the Jewish calendar.  Can we simply chalk such parallels up to mere secular coincidence.  Or is something else going on?

 

On 7/10/2017 at 6:21 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

I just rec'd an email from an organization in Israel stating in part the following:

Tonite, Monday nite at dusk, 17 Tammuz begins -- which means three weeks of mourning for the Jews.  As best we can determine (and according to the late David Noel Freedman), these were real historical events, beginning and ending on the same days in the Jewish calendar.  Can we simply chalk such parallels up to mere secular coincidence.  Or is something else going on?

Being that the Lord says He orchestrated these attacks, I don't believe the remarkable timing is coincidence. However, I doubt there is any independent, ie non-Jewish, evidence for an exact day of the Babylonian invasion.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

........................

In reverse of deciding on auspicious dates for events like marriages, battles, coronations, etc., day-keepers occasionally took some license in recording such events and others as royal births, unforeseen tragedies, disasters, windfalls, etc.; "the official story" for the sake of posterity. I've gotten rid of my books on Mayan civilization, so I'll keep Googling.

For what it's worth, some rabbis hold that the observance of the fast changed from the 9th to the 17th after the Roman attack ( http://www.nottinghamrabbi.com/page181.html), so perhaps the synchronicity is only symbolic. But even if that is not the case, considering how long the Jews observed this fast, the Romans must have had access to their history, or knowledge of their customs, and could have planned the attack to coincide with this observance as a part of a psychological strategy to demoralize them.

Yes, but the 17th of Tammuz was the date of the wall breach, the 9th of Ab was the date of destruction of the temple.  The temple being far more important, I can't imagine why they would change from the 9th to the 17th.

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

..................................

..........................................................

“All these tablets connect events in the present with events in the past. The Maya loved to connect the king’s ceremonies to events in the mythical past. In fact, it is possible that they fudged a little on the dates to make the symmetries that they display in the monuments.” http://www.perspectivedigest.org/article/73/archives/17-3/a-survival-guide-to-mayan-prophecies

“But it is true that Maya priests and time keepers loved to play with time and numerology, seeing how far back and forward they could go numerically. Another pastime of theirs was to show that current events, like the accession of kings, dedication of temples, or victories in battle were linked to distant past events performed by ancestors and the gods. They probably even fudged their calculations a bit to get real events to match up with mythical ones. If a king took the throne on a Calendar Round date or period ending that was the same as when a divine ancestor performed some great feat or important ritual, it was evidence of his divine authority and right to rule.” http://bmaf.org/articles/maya_predict_end_workd__johnson

Well, of course they coordinated their events to fit already extant calendars, but many societies did that in the Orient as well. That was as common as geomancy and feng shui.  However, the calendars themselves remained predictable and stable.  As John E. Clark has pointed out, chunks of BofM time were also seen in that way.

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, but the 17th of Tammuz was the date of the wall breach, the 9th of Ab was the date of destruction of the temple.  The temple being far more important, I can't imagine why they would change from the 9th to the 17th.

Well, of course they coordinated their events to fit already extant calendars, but many societies did that in the Orient as well. That was as common as geomancy and feng shui.  However, the calendars themselves remained predictable and stable.  As John E. Clark has pointed out, chunks of BofM time were also seen in that way.

These rabbis assert that the observation was changed from the 9th of Tammuz (the actual date of the first wall breach) to the 17th of Tammuz (the date of the second wall breach). This adds more than a week to the traditional 21 days between the 586 BC events.

"Coordination" seems to have also included the reporting of certain events in such a way as to make them appear to have occurred on meaningful calendar dates even though they actually occurred at a very different time. I know more than one person who claims to have been born on the 4th of July, for example.

I'll keep looking... the example(s) I'm think of was on stone stelae showing conflicting dates of the same event (not sure if it was a coronation, birth, battle, etc.) to best serve the political purposes of the rival families who recorded them.

Edited July 13, 2017 by CV75

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, CV75 said:

These rabbis assert that the observation was changed from the 9th of Tammuz (the actual date of the first wall breach) to the 17th of Tammuz (the date of the second wall breach). This adds more than a week to the traditional 21 days between the 586 BC events.

...................................................

You didn't cite your rabbinic source(s) for that claim, but you are probably referring to the Mishna as well as to Rabbi Yose ben Halafta..  The best source for the dating of these events is Jack Finegan, Handbook of Biblical Chronology, 2nd ed., sections 442-443, which makes it clear that the First Temple was destroyed on the 9th of Ab.  It is true that in Second Temple times there were three city walls, so a sequence in their destruction by the Romans is certainly reasonable, and Josephus describes the step by step process:  Wall three breached Iyyar 7 (War, V, 300302); Wall two breached later (War, V, 331-347); the temple gates set afire on 8 or 9 Ab (War, VI, 233-237), and the Second Temple was destroyed by the fire on the 9th of Ab/Saturday Aug 5, 70 AD (War, VI, 244-288; Finegan, Handbook, sections 202-203,468).

[CV75]

47 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You didn't cite your rabbinic source(s) for that claim, but you are probably referring to the Mishna as well as to Rabbi Yose ben Halafta..  The best source for the dating of these events is Jack Finegan, Handbook of Biblical Chronology, 2nd ed., sections 442-443, which makes it clear that the First Temple was destroyed on the 9th of Ab.  It is true that in Second Temple times there were three city walls, so a sequence in their destruction by the Romans is certainly reasonable, and Josephus describes the step by step process:  Wall three breached Iyyar 7 (War, V, 300302); Wall two breached later (War, V, 331-347); the temple gates set afire on 8 or 9 Ab (War, VI, 233-237), and the Second Temple was destroyed by the fire on the 9th of Ab/Saturday Aug 5, 70 AD (War, VI, 244-288; Finegan, Handbook, sections 202-203,468).

Agreed, my links are not the most reliable sources. It seems there is nothing recorded or opined about the significance to the Jewish psyche of the 21-day timing and the synchronicity of these events 656 years apart. Did anything else of significance happen in the same locale at intervals of 656 years that might suggest a pattern (moving forward or back on the timeline)?

Edited July 13, 2017 by CV75

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, CV75 said:

Agreed, my links are not the most reliable sources. It seems there is nothing recorded or opined about the significance to the Jewish psyche of the 21-day timing and the synchronicity of these events 656 years apart. Did anything else of significance happen in the same locale at intervals of 656 years that might suggest a pattern (moving forward or back on the timeline)?

Not that I know of, but I haven't looked.

[stemelbow]

Reminds me of Sept 11th.

Sept 11 1857 - the slaughter of 120 Arkansas emigrants in Utah, by the hand of Mormon religionists

Sept 11 2001- we all know what happened.

[Avatar4321]

 

On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 0:20 AM, The Nehor said:

I wish they would quit mourning it and build another one. After nearly two millenia it is probably time.

 

I'm sure when the one who holds priesthood keys to direct the rebuilding says proceed that they will

[The Nehor]

On 7/15/2017 at 2:01 PM, Avatar4321 said:

 

 

I'm sure when the one who holds priesthood keys to direct the rebuilding says proceed that they will

I give my permission. Go ahead.

*Runs to avoid the lightning*