Mormon's behaving badly

[bsjkki]

I had not realized this high profile spying case involved a former BYU graduate. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865683630/BYU-grad-arrested-on-charge-of-selling-secrets-to-China.html 

This other story is the worst.  Former Bishop's that abuse the trust placed in them...I am happy the church acts quickly. I remember when the church immediately released the branch president as soon as allegations were made against him. I thought it would be sad if the allegation proved untrue but there really is no other way for the church to behave. You can not have a leader remain in place who has serious allegations of misconduct against him. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865683563/Former-Mapleton-LDS-bishop-accused-of-drugging-assaulting-2-teens.html  In the previous case, the Branch President was found guilty and the judge made the news in the sentencing hearing. 

[hagoth7]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I had not realized this high profile spying case involved a former BYU graduate. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865683630/BYU-grad-arrested-on-charge-of-selling-secrets-to-China.html 

So...a former agent (BYU alum) from one agency is arrested by a different agency *AFTER* disclosing to his former contacts exactly what he was in the process of doing?

And based on that, I'm supposed to conclude that it's the BYU alum that's behaving badly? 

Um...with tectonic shifts within one agency in recent days, and with strains within the entire intelligence community over the last few months/years, this development looks much more like initial hints of an inter-agency power struggle than it does a question of Kevin's integrity.  If anyone here is in Virginia, you might wanna carefully consider checking in on Kevin. And others might wanna check in occasionally with those they know who are currently serving. With others checking on you.

This may be no small matter. If any one of you promptly asks me in person, I'll gladly explain why.  

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

...You can not have a leader remain in place who has serious allegations of misconduct against him... 

You can't? 

Tell that to the earliest members of KIrtland, Missouri, and Nauvoo.

 

I'll take poetic license with Charles Wesley's concern about earlier developments in America...

                How easily are bishops [un]made
                     By man or woman’s whim!

The standard you're looking to erect would have leaders dismissed with the mere hint of serious allegations.

(But then again, many such leaders...and their families...might welcome such a policy, and might even put the hotline on speed dial. If so, march on, Ivanhoe.)  

 

:::that said, there is genuine concern for those referenced elsewhere in the OP:::

Edited June 24, 2017 by hagoth7

[Calm]

"You can't? 

Tell that to the earliest members of KIrtland, Missouri, and Nauvoo."

There are 'serious allegations' and then there are actual serious allegations.  The law operated differently back in the early church.  They could make all sorts of unfounded claims and not get legal consequences from it.  There are more checks and balances in the system now.  Thus there is more reason to trust the legal system.  This gives two good reasons to remove accused leaders...if charges have been brought, that means there has been enough evidence found in investigation for the law officers to consider the accusations may be valid; with the greater trust in the legal system, there will be less trust and desire to wait until the entire legal process has been gone through among members and thus allowing a man who has been legally charged to stay in a calling would be detrimental to members.

If you spend much time on the internet, you can find a number of serious allegations (fraud, rape, theft, conspiracy to cover up crimes, and murder are the ones I have seen) being posted about church members and leaders.  Many of them are ignored because if the person posting has attempted to get law officers involved, their claims have been rejected as unfounded.  The Church needs to do nothing and probably does nothing in these cases.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Calm

[bluebell]

That bishop story is horrible!  I don't understand how some people can be so evil.

[Calm]

And hide it so well.

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, hagoth7 said:

So...a former agent (BYU alum) from one agency is arrested by a different agency *AFTER* disclosing to his former contacts exactly what he was in the process of doing?

And based on that, I'm supposed to conclude that it's the BYU alum that's behaving badly? 

Um...with tectonic shifts within one agency in recent days, and with strains within the entire intelligence community over the last few months/years, this development looks much more like initial hints of an inter-agency power struggle than it does a question of Kevin's integrity.  If anyone here is in Virginia, you might wanna carefully consider checking in on Kevin. And others might wanna check in occasionally with those they know who are currently serving. With others checking on you.

This may be no small matter. If any one of you promptly asks me in person, I'll gladly explain why.  

You can't? 

Tell that to the earliest members of KIrtland, Missouri, and Nauvoo.

 

I'll take poetic license with Charles Wesley's concern about earlier developments in America...

                How easily are bishops [un]made
                     By man or woman’s whim!

The standard you're looking to erect would have leaders dismissed with the mere hint of serious allegations.

(But then again, many such leaders...and their families...might welcome such a policy, and might even put the hotline on speed dial. If so, march on, Ivanhoe.)  

 

:::that said, there is genuine concern for those referenced elsewhere in the OP:::

So you would leave a Branch President in place while charges of sexual abuse are investigated? How about embezzlement and fraud? I used the word "serious" for a reason. I listened to the story of my current temple president who was released from all callings while he was investigated for 10 years for serious charges of fraud. He testified attending the temple got him through this very long, difficult period in his life while he defended his innocence. It was a very powerful testimony to listen to. It is in the best interests of the church to release these people from callings for everyone's protection. I also remember reading the story about the Branch President accused of wrong doing and he was immediately released and his friends and family denied the allegations. Well, having read about the case and the fact he was found guilty of sexual misconduct...it was better for the church to release him while the charges were investigated and he went to trial. 

Edited June 24, 2017 by bsjkki

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, hagoth7 said:

So...a former agent (BYU alum) from one agency is arrested by a different agency *AFTER* disclosing to his former contacts exactly what he was in the process of doing?

And based on that, I'm supposed to conclude that it's the BYU alum that's behaving badly? 

Um...with tectonic shifts within one agency in recent days, and with strains within the entire intelligence community over the last few months/years, this development looks much more like initial hints of an inter-agency power struggle than it does a question of Kevin's integrity.  If anyone here is in Virginia, you might wanna carefully consider checking in on Kevin. And others might wanna check in occasionally with those they know who are currently serving. With others checking on you.

This may be no small matter. If any one of you promptly asks me in person, I'll gladly explain why.  

 

I hope you are right and this is spy games gone wrong and the BYU alum is innocent...I can go only by news reports. (But there are so many retractions these days it is very difficult to know the truth of anything.)

[hagoth7]

23 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

So you would leave a Branch President in place while charges of sexual abuse are investigated? How about embezzlement and fraud? I used the word "serious" for a reason. I listened to the story of my current temple president who was released from all callings while he was investigated for 10 years for serious charges of fraud. He testified attending the temple got him through this very long, difficult period in his life where he defended his innocence. It was a very powerful testimony to listen to. It is in the best interests of the church to release these people...it was better for the church to release him.... 

I didn't follow or read your second referenced link until *after* my first post and after reading the replies here to me (including yours).  

Reading that second link before replying would have likely altered the nature of the second half of my post....

Apologies for causing a stir.

(I clearly have little/no experience with modern church governance/administration...)  

 

Edited June 24, 2017 by hagoth7

[readstoomuch]

its sad whether either story is true or not.  to think that any member or leader would do these things is horrendous.  i think if the allegations are serious enough someone probably has to be released from their calling.  It would be up to the presiding authority and would be something done with care and prayer.  

[carbon dioxide]

On 6/24/2017 at 9:31 AM, bsjkki said:

I had not realized this high profile spying case involved a former BYU graduate. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865683630/BYU-grad-arrested-on-charge-of-selling-secrets-to-China.html 

 

He was just helping out his fellow brothers and sisters in another country.

[bsjkki]

This is a horrible story. I had missed the original story from March but the man has now been convicted and was sentenced for 10 years. Original story: https://www.ksat.com/news/fw-local-teacher-accused-of-hosting-teen-sex-parties-at-north-side-home

Current story with the "Mormon" headline and picture of him with his missionary name tag. The media seems to relish advertising when a Mormon does bad things.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4774886/Teacher-hosted-sex-parties-teens-gets-10-years.html

[Tacenda]

I recently went to an appointment to get some testing for Alzheimer's, just being proactive a little bit. And the doctor, who is a neuropsychologist, made small talk and happen to mention he had moved from another state and couldn't believe how bad it was in Utah, first he mentioned a driver that cut him off and was angry at him, turns out it had BYU on his license plate or something. Then he said his wife and kids are struggling with all the clicks going on in his ward. He said it's nothing like that in Minnesota, or where he moved from, but he's originally from Utah.  

That's the first time I've heard it from the horse's mouth. I've read or heard of it happening, but not from someone in real life. So to those that think it doesn't happen, I believe it does. Also, someone my son works with told him he can't stand to attend church because of the way people act, he moved from another state. And now the guy is inactive. I guess we're really that bad in Utah.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Tacenda

[Calm]

7 hours ago, bsjkki said:

This is a horrible story. I had missed the original story from March but the man has now been convicted and was sentenced for 10 years. Original story: https://www.ksat.com/news/fw-local-teacher-accused-of-hosting-teen-sex-parties-at-north-side-home

Current story with the "Mormon" headline and picture of him with his missionary name tag. The media seems to relish advertising when a Mormon does bad things.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4774886/Teacher-hosted-sex-parties-teens-gets-10-years.html

That is ridiculous.  It has been 8 years since he was a missionary.

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I recently went to an appointment to get some testing for Alzheimer's, just being proactive a little bit. And the doctor, who is a neuropsychologist, made small talk and happen to mention he had moved from another state and couldn't believe how bad it was in Utah, first he mentioned a driver that cut him off and was angry at him, turns out it had BYU on his license plate or something. Then he said his wife and kids are struggling with all the clicks going on in his ward. He said it's nothing like that in Minnesota, or where he moved from, but he's originally from Utah.  

That's the first time I've heard it from the horse's mouth. I've read or heard of it happening, but not from someone in real life. So to those that think it doesn't happen, I believe it does. Also, someone my son works with told him he can't stand to attend church because of the way people act, he moved from another state. And now the guy is inactive. I guess we're really that bad in Utah.

There are bad and good places all over, including in Utah.  The best neighborhood and ward I have been in is in Utah.  So is the worst.  However, I bet there are both better and worst wards elsewhere in the world.  And better and worst neighbourhoods, including ones that have zero Mormons.

Do you realize you are doing the same thing to others as those who choose to be in cliches...looking down on those around you?  How is this helpful to paint Utah all over as unfriendly?

Edited August 10, 2017 by Calm

[bsjkki]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is ridiculous.  It has been 8 years since he was a missionary.

I think the media is behaving badly...I searched to see if he had a leadership role and could not find one listed. 

[Tacenda]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

There are bad and good places all over, including in Utah.  The best neighborhood and ward I have been in is in Utah.  So is the worst.  However, I bet there are both better and worst wards elsewhere in the world.  And better and worst neighbourhoods, including ones that have zero Mormons.

Do you realize you are doing the same thing to others as those who choose to be in cliches...looking down on those around you?  How is this helpful to paint Utah all over as unfriendly?

I think the reason I'm a little angry, is because I may have been part of the problem. Once I changed callings or visiting teaching routes, I moved onto the next group. Sure I'd still say hi etc. to those I served with, but it seemed I never stayed close. And the people that were inactive I didn't have much to do with, unless I was in a calling that made it so we would visit them such as being in the RS.

I'm 55 and I have been in many wards with moves and ward boundary changes. I think I was oblivious to all of this until I've been on the outside, inactive. And I hear often how great it is outside of Utah with the friendliness being genuine. This doctor even mentioned that. He said don't tell Utahns they do this because they think they're the friendliest people around. 

But I understand I need to be the change. And I think different areas of Utah are better or worse than others. Excited to move in a few months.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Tacenda

[bsjkki]

I agree with Calm that good and bad wards can be anywhere but I have liked my wards in less Morman areas the most. I think this is for two main reasons. First, the wards are more diverse because they cover a larger area so you have young, old, rich and poor. Two, many Mormons in less Mormon areas are transplants and need each other because they do not have family close by. This tends to bring people together. In my less Mormon areas the youth were close and had each other's backs but where I am now, the youth from different wards don't know each other even though they are in the same high school. 

My kids have more Mormons in their schools but have less Morman friends. 

Every area I have lived has been unique and each ward has had its own personality.

[ksfisher]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

That is ridiculous.  It has been 8 years since he was a missionary.

Which proves that the main goal of the media is not to accurately report the news, but to make money.  A picture of a Mormon missionary in trouble with the law makes money.

[gopher]

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 1:39 PM, hagoth7 said:

If anyone here is in Virginia, you might wanna carefully consider checking in on Kevin.

I haven't heard any mention Kevin around here and I regularly see members of his stake.  Maybe it's because many members have top secret clearances and they are used to keeping silent about intelligence matters.  When I worked for the Federal Gov't, I would always joke that I was the rare member that could openly talk about what I did for a living.  But there is big money around here for CIA, State Department, and other intelligence employees when they leave the gov't depending on their field of expertise.  Hopefully Kevin wasn't corrupted by the lure of money.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think the reason I'm a little angry, is because I may have been part of the problem. Once I changed callings or visiting teaching routes, I moved onto the next group. Sure I'd still say hi etc. to those I served with, but it seemed I never stayed close. And the people that were inactive I didn't have much to do with, unless I was in a calling that made it so we would visit them such as being in the RS.

I'm 55 and I have been in many wards with moves and ward boundary changes. I think I was oblivious to all of this until I've been on the outside, inactive. And I hear often how great it is outside of Utah with the friendliness being genuine. This doctor even mentioned that. He said don't tell Utahns they do this because they think they're the friendliest people around. 

But I understand I need to be the change. And I think different areas of Utah are better or worse than others. Excited to move in a few months.

You can if you so desire motivate people to change more by using yourself as the example you see others should become (share your issues and how you are or have worked on them to change and then the positive benefit) rather than just appear to be offended by others or scolding them for failing. Few appreciate being told they are horrible people who have driven others away.  On the other hand, they may recognize themselves in personal stories and be motivated to change that way where they won't if they become defensive.  Defensiveness tends to strengthen behaviours, not cause them to be examined.

[Tacenda]

A friend from high school who is a Lutheran posted this on FB today. https://laughslikethunder.blog/2017/08/09/a-letter-to-mormons/

[Calm]

Everything he was saying was stuff I would apply to every neighbourhood I lived in when young.  And I was only in 

Utah for a half year at most before I went to BYU.

Antibullying programs don't only exist in Utah.

I am not saying this shouldn't be said.  I am saying this should be a message sent out to the world and especially to ourselves each time we think we need to tell someone else they need to do better in this area..  When it gets narrowed to one group, I think it sends the message in the wrong direction.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Calm

[bsjkki]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

A friend from high school who is a Lutheran posted this on FB today. https://laughslikethunder.blog/2017/08/09/a-letter-to-mormons/

My cousin in law posted this too. She lived in Utah as a child and had a hard time growing up there. I saw similar treatment but in Kansas, it was the Mormons who were shunned. I think it is a good reminder for everyone to be kind when in the majority,

[Calm]

Or even not.  The dominant girl was a minority in my daughter's elementary school, Korean immigrant who had been there 4 years and hardly knew English when she came.  She just had an alpha dog personality and decided in 5th grade to turn a longtime staple of the main group into an outcast...just because she could as far as I could tell.  Everyone went along with her, even my daughter as she was too shy to stand up to her to begin with and then too ashamed to tell me what was going on,  I found out last day of class from the girl's mother and we made it our summer project to heal that relationship though the bullied girl did not come back the next year.  I also talked to a couple of the other girls who had been longtime friends with my daughter, I think they were sincerely sorry and made some reparations.

It is not just cases of insiders and outsiders.  It is why someone is an insider and why they are out.  There are typically outside kids who get 'adopted' and protected by the stronger ones and can even become the core of the group, but it could be for a variety of reasons.  I considered myself an insider in elementary, though on the edge; I realized when I got back from a half year middle of the year stay with a relative I had never been.  It was simply location and convenience, I lived next door to the wannabe queen, but everyone else was bussed or driven...if there were any gatherings of neighbour kids, it was in our back yard rather than hers because her Mom had a lawn obsession, you did not walk on it, nor did you go into her home.  So my house was default at times.

Never got me invited to sleepovers, one or two birthday parties.

It was only when I moved to a Mormon dense area in CA and became one of a dozen kids in my grade instead of the only one, that I started getting included, mostly by Mormons, but since most were primarily friends with nonMormons, the first association would extended into the larger group.  There were many more opening their group.  Being terminally shy, I didn't really see it for what it was and feared experiencing betrayal again (of course, it wasn't betrayal, it just felt that way).

The whole point of this ramble is it is best to not look at a particular situation as in and out group or us vs. them when it is kids...or even adults.  It is much more likely to be both more complicated and simpler and if you focus on trying to open the in group to more, you will likely fail and not understand why.

For example, since I was roommother and tutor and babysitter of the same group of kids for 6 years (only one English class most years, so same kids year after year), the dynamics were easy to see and really easy to influence before grade 3.  Once girls hit grade 3, the dynamics change and are much more personality dependent.  We happened to have a power hungry young lady who  push herself onto the most popular and very easygoing and accepting girl, manipulated her into indentifying herself as BFFs and then the queen ruled the throne for two years completely capriously.  I have never seen that configuration elsewhere, though sI liar ones.  

Once junior high and high school came around, the Asian minority who had been accepted as just part of the regular group in the area I was in (high immigration population) began to as a whole (some Asaian kids ignored this) established itself as the in group, longer term white Canadians were disdained because the Asians were told they were lazy and mentally inferior.  Much conflict ensued, some violence.

Never been in a school that didn't have a unique group dynamic going on.  When a program came in to eliminate bullying etc,, if it wasn't adapted, the rules often ignored, it would fail.  Neighbourhoods same thing.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Calm