LDS church is providing legal aid to immigrants in Arizona and Salt Lake City

[bsjkki]

I found this interesting and I'm happy the church is doing this. Many illegal immigrants that I have known spent thousands on lawyers that can not help them and are taken advantage of. This is one of the reason the actual laws need to change because you can not obtain legal status in the US if you have come here illegally and this will not get fixed until the two sides of the political spectrum can compromise. Having your legal status determined by the whims of executive orders is like 'building your house upon the sand.' From my memory, I remember hearing that fast offerings can not be used for legal fees so this program is very helpful. http://arizonabeehive.com/lds-church-collaborates-with-asu-law-school-to-provide-legal-counsel-to-immigrants/

[rpn]

Doesn't sound to me like "the church" is doing it.   It sounds like members of the church are responding to a community need, personally, with some encouragement.coordination by the welfare department.

[rongo]

17 hours ago, bsjkki said:

From my memory, I remember hearing that fast offerings can not be used for legal fees . . .

This may well be true, and I probably should have confirmed with the handbook, but I have helped someone with legal fees via fast offerings before. The attorney was a retired attorney in a tough financial position, and the member (also in a tough financial situation) needed some legal items cleared up in another state before receiving a temple recommend. I basically paid a couple hundred dollars for research and an executive summary for myself and the stake president, and this allowed the member to do valuable work in exchange for needed assistance. The research and write-up was extremely helpful, because neither of us would have known how to have gone about researching for the needed information. He talked to a public defender in the other state, and it turns out that 2 of the 3 outstanding warrants had been dropped and we were both satisfied that the remaining one did not present a barrier to temple-worthiness. 

If paying fast offerings for some legal research was against church policy, both my stake president and I feel that it was the right thing to do . . .  

[mnn727]

I sincerely hope the Church is not providing (legal) aid to illegals.

 

10. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

[JLHPROF]

57 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

I sincerely hope the Church is not providing (legal) aid to illegals.

 

10. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

I sincerely hope they are.

• 10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon this, the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

Eventually our current "spiritual" gathering to Zion will have to become literal again.

[ksfisher]

6 hours ago, rongo said:

This may well be true, and I probably should have confirmed with the handbook, but I have helped someone with legal fees via fast offerings before. The attorney was a retired attorney in a tough financial position, and the member (also in a tough financial situation) needed some legal items cleared up in another state before receiving a temple recommend. I basically paid a couple hundred dollars for research and an executive summary for myself and the stake president, and this allowed the member to do valuable work in exchange for needed assistance. The research and write-up was extremely helpful, because neither of us would have known how to have gone about researching for the needed information. He talked to a public defender in the other state, and it turns out that 2 of the 3 outstanding warrants had been dropped and we were both satisfied that the remaining one did not present a barrier to temple-worthiness. 

If paying fast offerings for some legal research was against church policy, both my stake president and I feel that it was the right thing to do . . .  

Nothing about paying legal fees prohibited in Handbook 1.  The only types of payments specifically mentioned as prohibited are consumer debt and debt incured as the result of business failure. 

Edited February 16, 2017 by ksfisher

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

Nothing about paying legal fees prohibited in Handbook 1.  The only types of payments specifically mentioned as prohibited are consumer debt and debt uncured as the result of business failure. 

I don't have access to handbook 1 but I found this statement from BYU's law school. Maybe it was a local instruction or maybe I heard it based on it not being in keeping with welfare principles as stated in this article.  Priesthood leaders should always explore the needy individual’s ability to pay, even if the amount is small and payments are spread over time.  Financial resources of a person’s immediate and extended family should also be explored.  Priesthood leaders are reminded that any use of fast offering funds for legal fees and expenses should be done in a manner consistent with Church welfare principles, especially in adversarial proceedings involving members on both sides of the litigation. http://www.jrcls.org/?folder=pro_bono&page=service_church

[SeekerB]

A persons legal status is determined by immigration law. Being here illegally is not determined by executive action.

Edited February 17, 2017 by SeekerB

[Danzo]

15 hours ago, mnn727 said:

I sincerely hope the Church is not providing (legal) aid to illegals.

 

10. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

I really hope that they are. "when I was a stranger . . ."

Edited February 17, 2017 by Danzo

[Danzo]

15 hours ago, mnn727 said:

I sincerely hope the Church is not providing (legal) aid to illegals.

 

10. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

Also, by paying legal fees, aren't we helping them to obey, honour and sustain the law?

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, SeekerB said:

A persons legal status is determined by immigration law. Being here illegally is not determined by executive action.

Not true. Executive action often is necessary for an adjustment in status.

Immigration law gives the executive the ability to make those determinations

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, mnn727 said:

I sincerely hope the Church is not providing (legal) aid to illegals.

 

10. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

"Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt."

In this passage stranger meant foreigner.

If we are of the House of Israel we are the descendants of vagrants. Abraham had no land to call his own to bury his dead. The Nephites and the Ten Tribes were landless refugees. The Son of God had no place to lay his head. Our pioneer ancestors fled across an international border without permission fleeing persecution. We are the descendants of refugees. Hiding behind a strict interpretation of secular law to hide from our higher obligations of charity and to succor the weak is an insult to our heritage.

Even more poignantly we are told that inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of humanity we have done it unto the Savior. Are we willing to sentence him to languish in a refugee camp or compel him to return to suffering and death?

[mnn727]

There are legal ways of entering this country.

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, mnn727 said:

There are legal ways of entering this country.

There are also legal ways for someone who didn't enter legally to obtain legal status.

There are ways someone who entered legally can become illegal.  

Since it can often be difficult to understand these laws, (by your statement, you appear to have that difficulty yourself) it makes sense to contact a lawyer to help understand and better obey these laws. 

[mnn727]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

Since it can often be difficult to understand these laws, (by your statement, you appear to have that difficulty yourself) it makes sense to contact a lawyer to help understand and better obey these laws. 

Not difficult at all, if you cross the border illegally, you are an illegal and should have NO path to citizenship.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, mnn727 said:

Not difficult at all, if you cross the border illegally, you are an illegal and should have NO path to citizenship.

I find such thinking goes against the command of God to gather to Zion.  Governmental borders are temporal constructs and so are immigration laws.  Eventually they won't exist.
Now I suppose you could liken it to the division between Terrestrial and Celestial.  All can come to the Celestial but have to follow the laws.
Except that God has commanded the righteous to gather to Zion and the laws of men hinder the fulfilling of that command.

[mnn727]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Except that God has commanded the righteous to gather to Zion and the laws of men hinder the fulfilling of that command.

Except we are to build Zion where we are. 

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

Except we are to build Zion where we are. 

That is a temporary situation for the strength of Zion.
10th Article of Faith stands as does D&C 101.  Zion will not be moved out of her place.
Eventually immigration law will have to change to allow the gathering to resume.

Edited February 17, 2017 by JLHPROF

[mnn727]

Sorry, I don't like seeing the Church condoning an illegal act. I believe its hypocritical to do so.

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

 

[Danzo]

5 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Not difficult at all, if you cross the border illegally, you are an illegal and should have NO path to citizenship.

So you are for the law when it keeps people out, and you are against the law when it gives them a path to citizenship.

So you don't actually seem to care what is legal, just as long as certain people stay out or leave.

Got it.

Good thing the church doesn't teach that.

 

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, mnn727 said:

Sorry, I don't like seeing the Church condoning an illegal act. I believe its hypocritical to do so.

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

 

Why are you not sustaining the law then?

Why are you opposed to giving others the opportunity to sustain the law by helping them receive legal advice?

[mnn727]

58 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Why are you not sustaining the law then?

Why are you opposed to giving others the opportunity to sustain the law by helping them receive legal advice?

So, first break the law, then try to go around it? Really?

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, mnn727 said:

So, first break the law, then try to go around it? Really?

Really!  Happens all of the time.

Its actually legal!

Since you feel that the law is the most important thing, this should greatly ease your conscience. You can stop worrying about it now.

Even with God's laws someone volunteered to pay the penalty. It's the biggest part of our religion

You might even try to start following the other commandments like caring for the poor, the, needy, the stranger, etc. 

 

Edited February 17, 2017 by Danzo

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Sorry, I don't like seeing the Church condoning an illegal act. I believe its hypocritical to do so.

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

 

Laws change.  As members of the Church pushing for an easier path to citizenship and immigration should be one of our goals.
Brigham established the Perpetual Immigration Fund for just that purpose.

If he were here today he'd be up in arms against these laws that impede the gathering from resuming.
And the D&C tells us that only the Constitutional law of the land needs to be followed.  Men make crazy laws that we don't need to follow if they contradict the law of God.

Edited February 17, 2017 by JLHPROF

[mnn727]

Strange. Mormons promoting breaking the law.