The Lord and this binding business

[Glenn101]

12 hours ago, emeliza said:

So that puts us back to the first thought, was the priesthood holder making up the blessing or uninspired than?  Or were they inspired to give a blessing that was untrue or couldn't happen?  

If it was not inspired, how does the recipient know?

If you have read the posts after this, you will pretty much get the feel for the way I understand blessings. 

Glenn

[mfbukowski]

On 2/3/2017 at 1:27 PM, Duncan said:

I was talking to my dentist, he's LDS as well, the other day over drinks (not alcoholic) and we were talking about giving blessings to people. He told me that he knows a guy in our stake and I think I know who it is but let's move on. Anyways this fella was told in a blessing that he'd become a Mission President. I obviously can't say one way or the other if he will but we were talking about what if the person giving the blessing said that, for whatever reason, but God has no intention of ever calling that guy to be a Mission President? is God now bound to give him that calling? People can say whatever they want but is God bound to honour those things? how would the person getting the blessing supposed to know God won't give you whatever it is, despite what is said?

Are you serious?

Yes God has to do whatever we tell him to do, but first you have to say "Simon says" because that is citing Peter's authority which makes you infallible. It is the ultimate trump card in the universe and why all these planets keep crashing into each other because some kids have figured out this.

The world will end soon simply because some 9 year old learns this secret.

[mfbukowski]

On 2/3/2017 at 1:44 PM, JLHPROF said:

In my opinion (and there are a HUGE number of variables that could impact this) a blessing pronounced by priesthood authority that does not contradict the express will of God has to be honored.

Unfortunately this is something the skeptics like to pounce on.  The fact that so many blessings go unfulfilled due to those many variables.  They think that it is pure happenstance when one is actually fulfilled.

So Go has to honor blessings but because there are variables, he doesn't have to honor blessings.

Got it.

There must be something in the water.

[mfbukowski]

23 hours ago, Duncan said:

What would you say to someone who died before the realization of their blessings? are they at fault for dying or doesn't God know when they are going to die, why say something to someone if he knows when they will die or if he doesn't know when then why make promises he can't fulfill? 

Yes dying before you were supposed to is a very serious sin.

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, emeliza said:

So that puts us back to the first thought, was the priesthood holder making up the blessing or uninspired than?  Or were they inspired to give a blessing that was untrue or couldn't happen?  

If it was not inspired, how does the recipient know?

I think the magic 8 ball works pretty well.

[mfbukowski]

I think I must be up past my bedtime of 8 pm.  Time for my cookies and blankey.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

So Go has to honor blessings but because there are variables, he doesn't have to honor blessings.

Got it.

There must be something in the water.

Pretty much. 

God honors the authoritative pronouncements of his servants.  He himself says as much.
So whenever he doesn't appear to honor such blessings, there clearly must be another variable at play that we aren't recognizing.

And I am positive you could come up with some of those variables as easily as I could.
Because God doesn't lie.

[emeliza]

4 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

If you have read the posts after this, you will pretty much get the feel for the way I understand blessings. 

Glenn

What post?  Can you quote it?  I found two posts you made.  Neither appears to address my question.  

[Glenn101]

5 hours ago, emeliza said:

What post?  Can you quote it?  I found two posts you made.  Neither appears to address my question.  

Sorry. I was speaking about the posts by Robert F. Smith et al after my post. After all is said and done, we are left with a bit, maybe a lot of uncertainty in this life. We are not given clear cut directions/answers to a lot of our prayers, even after a lot of praying, etc. on our part. 

To me that does not matter as much as it seems to matter to some. Paramount to me is the faith that I have in God,  Christ, the Holy Ghost, the Plan of Salvation, the Atonement, etc. That has become a certainty to me.

I do believe that one can attain a level of faith where mountains can be moved. But such is very rare. I have not heard of such a thing lately. If we want a mountain moved, we have to call in some heavy equipment. the brother of Jared did not have such equipment, so he had to exercise his faith.

When it comes to blessings, we contend with two areas of faith. That of the priesthood holder and that of the recipient. They both are important because even the greatest faith is constrained by the faith of others around about. We are told that Jesus Christ Himself did not work many miracles when He was in His own backyard because of the unbelief there. (Mathew chapter 13) (I am not sure though if Jesus could not perform the miracles because of unbelief or if He chose not to do so because of unbelief.)

There are times though when the faith of the person giving the blessing is the one that is paramount. Such as blessing a little child, or raising the dead (or casting out evil spirits). When the apostles tried to cast out a spirit from a young lad, they were not able to do so. Jesus told his disciples that such only came after much fasting and prayer.

I do not believe that God is bound to answer every prayer or perform every act that is intoned in a blessing, unless that prayer or blessing is delivered with the requisite faith and worthiness. And after all that, we have to wait on the mind of the Lord and not try to impose our own ideas on how such and such a thing should be accomplished.

I believe that when we pray, when we give blessings, that we need to put in a lot of time and effort. Maybe we all need to have a day like Enos did in the Book of Mormon when he spent all of one day and well into the night in prayer. We just cannot logically expect to "get there" spiritually without a lot of spiritual work. That is in essence what the Lord told Oliver Cowdery when Oliver tried to translate some of the Book of Mormon.

But even with a lot of faith, we are not given all of the answers. A case in point was when Joseph was praying earnestly to know the time of the Second Coming. Joseph was given an answer, and told to bother the Lord about it no more. But Joseph was still left with questions. (D&C 130)

I am not a fatalist, but I do not really have a problem with whether a person lives or dies after a blessing was given. Years ago my first wife was stricken with blood poisoning. She was afflicted with a disease called lupus that attacked her immune system and the medication she was taking to combat that made her vulnerable to infections. She had been hospitalized several time with infections from cuts, etc. but each time she was able to overcome them with antibiotic treatments. This last time, an infection from an ingrown toenail laid her low. She did not respond to antibiotic medications. She was given a blessing. He name was put in prayer circles in temples. Members of the ward held prayers for her. And I prayed harder than I ever did before in my life. But for some reason the Lord took her. I still do not know why. But I believe it was the Lord's will, that she had been "appointed unto death."

Because, maybe a year earlier her doctor had performed a pregnancy test and pronounced her pregnant. Or at least the test did. The doctor advised her that the odds were great that she would spontaneously abort the baby, and that the odd's were great that she herself would dies either prior to or during childbirth. He told her that it would be better that she get an abortion, but that if she wished to keep the child, he would see it through with her. He performed at least two confirmatory tests afterwards all of which came back positive

This resulted in a very difficult spiritual struggle for my wife and I. We believe that life is sacred and love children. We prayed about the matter earnestly and sought the advice of our Branch President and Stake President. Our Stake President sought the advice of the First Presidency. They replied that there would be no sin in having an abortion in this case. I myself told my wife that I would support her in whatever decision that she made.

My wife struggled with this decision mightily, despite the assurances that she had received. She had received a blessing from the Stake President, but in her personal prayers she told me that she had begged the Father to take the decision from her because she could not bear to abort a life that was so precious to her. Well, the doctor performed another pregnancy test on her next visit and was astonished to learn that she was no longer pregnant. He did not know what had happened. There was no trauma indicating a spontaneous abortion. What had been there was no longer there. The decision had been taken from her.

Those experiences and others have taken me to the point I am today and have shaped my beliefs in faith, prayer, blessings, and spiritual experiences. I do not need answers to every question. I have received answers to the questions which I need to know the answers to. Jesus Christ, the Atonement, the Plan of Salvation, Temple work, baptism, etc. The doctrines and ordinances that will lead me to salvation and exaltation if I do what I should do. Oh yeah, and Joseph Smith was/is a prophet of the Lord.

I don't know if I have made my thoughts any clearer than mud.

Glenn

[emeliza]

Makes sense.  I don't ask questions on why either, but I also don't give as much stock in blessings.  Instead I rely on the relationship I have with God and work within that realm.  

[rockpond]

On 2/4/2017 at 7:35 AM, Glenn101 said:

Doctrine and Covenants 42:48 And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath faith in me to be healed, and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed.

Two caveats.

Glenn

Yes.  And the second caveat shows that the Lord isn't bound to what a priesthood holder may pronounce in a blessing, even when the first is satisfied. 

[rockpond]

On 2/4/2017 at 9:56 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

What part of "conditional" did you not understand, rockpond?  And where  did you get that "unknown law"?  Blessings are not magical incantations.  Just because some home teacher or friend administers a blessing does in no way guarantee that it will be fulfilled.  That is just silly.  The HT may speak on his own account, without inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  Like prophecy, there is both true and false prophecy, so with some off-the-wall blessings.  Read the Bible.  God is not responsible for wishful thinking, even though a prayer of faith may indeed be of great value -- if it is in line with God's will.  Sometimes, as with Abraham and Moses, one  must even argue the point with God Himself -- because he will engage in just that sort of discourse, and honors his children who take the time to reason with him, or to fast and pray on behalf of someone in need.  We should not take the temple Prayer Circle lightly, and always bear in mind that the prayer of faith availeth much.  It is not a guarantee.

We took an odd route to get here but it sounds to me like we completely agree.  At least I agree with all that you've written here. 

[JLHPROF]

12 hours ago, rockpond said:

Yes.  And the second caveat shows that the Lord isn't bound to what a priesthood holder may pronounce in a blessing, even when the first is satisfied.

I think that really depends on the blessing.
As I pointed out previously, the Lord is bound when a priesthood holder performs an ordinance, UNLESS certain variables are not met.

Take D&C 132:19 
And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

Guaranteed blessing according to the Lord, but a few caveats to get there.
It's just too easy to say that God doesn't honor blessings based on what mortal men pronounce.
The more complex truth is usually because WE don't meet the requirement for the pronounced blessing, don't have the faith needed, or gave the blessing against God's will.

But it is still wrong to say God is never bound by a priesthood blessing.

Edited February 6, 2017 by JLHPROF

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I think that really depends on the blessing.
As I pointed out previously, the Lord is bound when a priesthood holder performs an ordinance, UNLESS certain variables are not met.

That "unless" means that the Lord is not bound.  Being bound as long as certain variables exist, which variables are determined by the Lord, isn't really being bound by "the blessing".  He may be bound by other laws, but not by the blessing itself.

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Take D&C 132:19

132:19 is a promise from the Lord and not applicable to the discussion of whether the Lord is bound to promises made by other priesthood holders.

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

It's just too easy to say that God doesn't honor blessings based on what mortal men pronounce.
The more complex truth is usually because WE don't meet the requirement for the pronounced blessing, don't have the faith needed, or gave the blessing against God's will.

But it is still wrong to say God is never bound by a priesthood blessing.

I didn't say that "God doesn't honor blessings on what mortal men pronounce."  I said that he isn't bound to honor them but because we pronounce them.  The "complex truth" is exactly why He isn't bound.

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, rockpond said:

That "unless" means that the Lord is not bound.  Being bound as long as certain variables exist, which variables are determined by the Lord, isn't really being bound by "the blessing".  He may be bound by other laws, but not by the blessing itself.

132:19 is a promise from the Lord and not applicable to the discussion of whether the Lord is bound to promises made by other priesthood holders.

I didn't say that "God doesn't honor blessings on what mortal men pronounce."  I said that he isn't bound to honor them but because we pronounce them.  The "complex truth" is exactly why He isn't bound.

So your belief is that because sometimes variables exist in life God didn't really mean it when he promised to honor the words of his servants?
Wouldn't that make God a liar?

[rockpond]

14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So your belief is that because sometimes variables exist in life God didn't really mean it when he promised to honor the words of his servants?
Wouldn't that make God a liar?

No and no.

I don't think honoring our words means that we can promise anything in a priesthood blessing and he is bound to do it.  He's a loving Heavenly Father who has given us the priesthood.  He's not a genie in a bottle.

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, rockpond said:

No and no.

I don't think honoring our words means that we can promise anything in a priesthood blessing and he is bound to do it.  He's a loving Heavenly Father who has given us the priesthood.  He's not a genie in a bottle.

I agree.

But there are still statements made to apostles etc like:

Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

So either God is bound to honor this promise or he isn't.
And God himself says:
"D&C 82:10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise."

Apparently God himself says he is bound when we do what he says.  That is the one and only caveat.  If the blessing isn't fulfilled we can assume that someone involved isn't "doing what God says".

Edited February 6, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Calm]

But what is he referring to when he says "do what I say"?

[HappyJackWagon]

On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 10:57 AM, rongo said:

 

I take great comfort from what Elder Oaks taught in an important priesthood session talk years ago. 1) He said that the recipient of a blessing gets the blessing the Lord has for them, regardless of what is said in the blessing. I have had many "arise, take up they bed, and walk," experiences in giving blessings, but I've also had failures (or what appear to be failures to the natural man). I've shared before my extreme example of giving a blessing and telling the woman in a coma that she would recover and live, and she died a few days later. I didn't clearly feel what should be said, and as I struggled with that, I felt to say that, even though it was not as clear as other instances where it is very clear. I worried about the effect of that on the family, but the non-member family was very happy and at peace when she died, despite the blessing, and the nurse who was performing the transfusion when we gave the blessing demanded of them to know what church we were from. She felt something strong. It was a unique circumstance, because we were sent by a non-member who attended church regularly, and we explained that her faith and her family's faith would be a factor, and we talked to the family in the ICU before giving the blessing. The outcome of the blessing was actually very positive, even though the prophecy "failed."

Elder Oaks's counsel should encourage men who are afraid of "getting it wrong," and therefore are timid and "play it safe" in giving blessings, not really saying much. 2) President Packer taught that we should prophecy, and leave it up to the Lord to fulfill it (the subject of this thread is whether this binds the Lord or not). I think that sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't, and neither the giver nor the recipient always know for sure which one it is --- and that this is as it should be. 

 

 

1) If the Lord will give the blessing he has in store, wouldn't it be best to say as little as possible? For example, follow the procedure and pronounce the authority by which the blessing is given and then say something like "All blessings that the Lord has in store shall be realized according to your faith. Amen." Why should priesthood holders say anything more than this?

2) What good is prophesying if neither the giver or receiver can have confidence in the validity of the prophesy?

Honest question here- what is the value of a priesthood blessing if 1- the Lord will bless as He sees fit regardless of what is said, 2- the giver and the receiver can really have no real confidence that what is being said will come to pass or that the blessing will be honored as stated. This system of blessing sounds like the administration of a placebo.

JLHPROF states that the worthy declaration of a priesthood holder will be honored by God if the laws associated with the blessing are followed. While there are still a lot of "outs" if the blessing doesn't work, at least this conception of a blessing being honored holds value. The other case seems to have no value whatsoever.

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I agree.

But there are still statements made to apostles etc like:

Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

So either God is bound to honor this promise or he isn't.
And God himself says:
"D&C 82:10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise."

Apparently God himself says he is bound when we do what he says.  That is the one and only caveat.  If the blessing isn't fulfilled we can assume that someone involved isn't "doing what God says".

Matt 18:  I thought we understood this to be the Lord giving the keys of the kingdom to his apostles.  I think the sealing power is different than the keys an elder uses when giving a blessing to someone he home teaches.

D&C 82:  This describes a covenant relationship between each of us and the Lord.  It is not applicable to promises made by a priesthood holder in a blessing.

[JLHPROF]

Just now, HappyJackWagon said:

1) If the Lord will give the blessing he has in store, wouldn't it be best to say as little as possible? For example, follow the procedure and pronounce the authority by which the blessing is given and then say something like "All blessings that the Lord has in store shall be realized according to your faith. Amen." Why should priesthood holders say anything more than this?

2) What good is prophesying if neither the giver or receiver can have confidence in the validity of the prophesy?

Honest question here- what is the value of a priesthood blessing if 1- the Lord will bless as He sees fit regardless of what is said, 2- the giver and the receiver can really have no real confidence that what is being said will come to pass or that the blessing will be honored as stated. This system of blessing sounds like the administration of a placebo.

JLHPROF states that the worthy declaration of a priesthood holder will be honored by God if the laws associated with the blessing are followed. While there are still a lot of "outs" if the blessing doesn't work, at least this conception of a blessing being honored holds value. The other case seems to have no value whatsoever.

Thank you. 
It all comes down to whether we believe God or not.
If God doesn't keep his promises then having faith in God would become impossible, and take salvation along with it.

Scripture says both that God will honor the worthy declaration of a priesthood holder acting with the spirit AND that all blessings are contingent upon obedience to law.
If a blessing isn't honored, one of these two criteria is likely not being met.

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Thank you. 
It all comes down to whether we believe God or not.
If God doesn't keep his promises then having faith in God would become impossible, and take salvation along with it.

Scripture says both that God will honor the worthy declaration of a priesthood holder acting with the spirit AND that all blessings are contingent upon obedience to law.
If a blessing isn't honored, one of these two criteria is likely not being met.

If I, acting under the Spirit, bless a sister in my ward that she will have a successful surgery tomorrow and a quick recovery but she dies on the operating table the next morning, what law wasn't obeyed?

[HappyJackWagon]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Thank you. 
It all comes down to whether we believe God or not.
If God doesn't keep his promises then having faith in God would become impossible, and take salvation along with it.

Scripture says both that God will honor the worthy declaration of a priesthood holder acting with the spirit AND that all blessings are contingent upon obedience to law.
If a blessing isn't honored, one of these two criteria is likely not being met.

It's less about believing God and more about believing a person who is telling us something God has promised. To me, that is a significant difference.

It's impossible to ever know for sure if those 2 criteria have been met which seems to allow plausible deniability anytime a blessing doesn't "work". Yet I have had experiences where I fully believe both criteria have been met and still the blessing isn't honored. I could be wrong. Maybe in each of those situations where I believed the criteria were met, they really weren't. Still, this provides very little confidence to the priesthood holder or the receiver of the blessing.

[JLHPROF]

26 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Quote

Scripture says both that God will honor the worthy declaration of a priesthood holder acting with the spirit AND that all blessings are contingent upon obedience to law.

If I, acting under the Spirit, bless a sister in my ward that she will have a successful surgery tomorrow and a quick recovery but she dies on the operating table the next morning, what law wasn't obeyed?

Several possibilities.
However, it is more likely an issue of the first ( priesthood holder acting WITHOUT the spirit) but there are several law issues that could be related.

You are very familiar with scripture and can identify them as easily as I can.  And the various possible blessings matter too.

For failed healings the law not being obeyed could be:
The "appointed to die", the "this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting", or a lack of "faith to be healed" (agency matters).
Or something else not coming to mind right now.

For me the bottom line is God made a promise.  If that promise appears not to be kept it is on us.



 

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Several possibilities.
However, it is more likely an issue of the first ( priesthood holder acting WITHOUT the spirit) but there are several law issues that could be related.

You are very familiar with scripture and can identify them as easily as I can.  And the various possible blessings matter too.

For failed healings the law not being obeyed could be:
The "appointed to die", the "this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting", or a lack of "faith to be healed" (agency matters).
Or something else not coming to mind right now.

For me the bottom line is God made a promise.  If that promise appears not to be kept it is on us.



 

I think we're done because we are repeating ourselves.

I also think that we agree on much of this but are tripping over the semantics.

For me, once all those caveats are placed on the priesthood blessing (some in our control and some clearly not) the result is that the Lord is not really bound to what the priesthood holder says in the blessing.  It doesn't mean the Lord isn't bound to other promises and laws but he obviously isn't bound to do something solely because a priesthood holder has laid his hands on someone's head and made a promise (which I understood to be the OP question).