The Lord and this binding business

[Duncan]

I was talking to my dentist, he's LDS as well, the other day over drinks (not alcoholic) and we were talking about giving blessings to people. He told me that he knows a guy in our stake and I think I know who it is but let's move on. Anyways this fella was told in a blessing that he'd become a Mission President. I obviously can't say one way or the other if he will but we were talking about what if the person giving the blessing said that, for whatever reason, but God has no intention of ever calling that guy to be a Mission President? is God now bound to give him that calling? People can say whatever they want but is God bound to honour those things? how would the person getting the blessing supposed to know God won't give you whatever it is, despite what is said?

[JLHPROF]

In my opinion (and there are a HUGE number of variables that could impact this) a blessing pronounced by priesthood authority that does not contradict the express will of God has to be honored.

Unfortunately this is something the skeptics like to pounce on.  The fact that so many blessings go unfulfilled due to those many variables.  They think that it is pure happenstance when one is actually fulfilled.

That's why religion is about faith first and proof second.

But yes, from a priesthood standpoint, God is bound to honor any righteously given/received and authorized blessing.
And especially more so if the corresponding laws are fulfilled.
He has said so himself.

Edited February 3, 2017 by JLHPROF

[JAHS]

13 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I was talking to my dentist, he's LDS as well, the other day over drinks (not alcoholic) and we were talking about giving blessings to people. He told me that he knows a guy in our stake and I think I know who it is but let's move on. Anyways this fella was told in a blessing that he'd become a Mission President. I obviously can't say one way or the other if he will but we were talking about what if the person giving the blessing said that, for whatever reason, but God has no intention of ever calling that guy to be a Mission President? is God now bound to give him that calling? People can say whatever they want but is God bound to honour those things? how would the person getting the blessing supposed to know God won't give you whatever it is, despite what is said?

I guess we will have to wait and see if it happens. It may happen but it kind of puts a lot of pressure on the one receiving the blessing if he doesn't become an MP.  I am thinking of a  "Private Ryan" quote - "Earn this!"
I think it is only a little more possible that he might become an MP because of the blessing. There's still a lot of life to live and things can happen involving the agency of others that could get in the way of it happening.

[Duncan]

Just now, JAHS said:

I guess we will have to wait and see if it happens. It may happen but it kind of puts a lot of pressure on the one receiving the blessing if he doesn't become an MP.  I am thinking of a  "Private Ryan" quote - "Earn this!"
I think it is only a little more possible that he might become an MP because of the blessing. There's still a lot of life to live and things can happen involving the agency of others that could get in the way of it happening.

I agree about the pressure part! but if he lived his life thinking it's going to happen and it does then great but if it doesn't, I don't know what that means and why God would say that or whatever

[rockpond]

38 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I was talking to my dentist, he's LDS as well, the other day over drinks (not alcoholic) and we were talking about giving blessings to people. He told me that he knows a guy in our stake and I think I know who it is but let's move on. Anyways this fella was told in a blessing that he'd become a Mission President. I obviously can't say one way or the other if he will but we were talking about what if the person giving the blessing said that, for whatever reason, but God has no intention of ever calling that guy to be a Mission President? is God now bound to give him that calling? People can say whatever they want but is God bound to honour those things? how would the person getting the blessing supposed to know God won't give you whatever it is, despite what is said?

Didn't Pres. Kimball bless Michael Quinn that he would one day be called as an apostle?  I don't think God is bound to honor everything we say in blessings.

[JAHS]

10 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I agree about the pressure part! but if he lived his life thinking it's going to happen and it does then great but if it doesn't, I don't know what that means and why God would say that or whatever

How do we know that the person giving the blessing really had the spirit with him when he said that or if he just thought it was a nice thing to say? Whenever those kinds of pronouncements are given in blessings (eg patriarchal blessings) I think of them more as future possibilities rather than absolutes. 

[CV75]

44 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I was talking to my dentist, he's LDS as well, the other day over drinks (not alcoholic) and we were talking about giving blessings to people. He told me that he knows a guy in our stake and I think I know who it is but let's move on. Anyways this fella was told in a blessing that he'd become a Mission President. I obviously can't say one way or the other if he will but we were talking about what if the person giving the blessing said that, for whatever reason, but God has no intention of ever calling that guy to be a Mission President? is God now bound to give him that calling? People can say whatever they want but is God bound to honour those things? how would the person getting the blessing supposed to know God won't give you whatever it is, despite what is said?

When I was a new member, a missionary once complained, "Every member a Mission President..." Maybe it has to do with that.

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Didn't Pres. Kimball bless Michael Quinn that he would one day be called as an apostle?  I don't think God is bound to honor everything we say in blessings.

He is if we abide the corresponding law.

[Duncan]

Just now, JAHS said:

How do we know that the person giving the blessing really had the spirit with him when he said that or if he just thought it was a nice thing to say? Whenever those kinds of pronouncements are given in blessings (eg patriarchal blessings) I think of them more as future possibilities rather than absolutes. 

that's what I wonder too, how is the recipient supposed to know that this? what do you mean possibilties and absolutes? 

[emeliza]

No.  I know a woman who was blessed to live to see her children grow up and the cancer took her shortly after that blessing.

My husband was blessed that he would be part of a bishopric one day when he was set apart into an EQ and he passed away with out that ever happening.

In both situations I think the priesthood holder who gave the blessing was righteous and trying.  But either they got their inspiration mixed up or they didn't have it for those words or agency that we are unaware of got in the way.

[Duncan]

Just now, emeliza said:

No.  I know a woman who was blessed to live to see her children grow up and the cancer took her shortly after that blessing.

My husband was blessed that he would be part of a bishopric one day when he was set apart into an EQ and he passed away with out that ever happening.

In both situations I think the priesthood holder who gave the blessing was righteous and trying.  But either they got their inspiration mixed up or they didn't have it for those words or agency that we are unaware of got in the way.

your husband died?????????????????????????????? I am terribly sorry to hear that!!! it's events like this that I wonder, like what do we make of these situations and is someone living under the impression okay, well if I do these things then this will be the outcome but as clearly demonstrated it doesn't happens, so we are left wondering what happened and how much stock do you put in future blessings

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

But yes, from a priesthood standpoint, God is bound to honor any righteously given/received and authorized blessing.
And especially more so if the corresponding laws are fulfilled.
He has said so himself.

Authorized by the Holy Ghost, I assume.

Glenn

[emeliza]

It's events like this that I wonder, like what do we make of these situations and is someone living under the impression okay, well if I do these things then this will be the outcome but as clearly demonstrated it doesn't happens, so we are left wondering what happened and how much stock do you put in future blessings

24 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Yes they do. I have friends who have left the church over blessings that didn't come.  Namely the "you will live" ones.

PBs are about the same.  My husband's said he would live long and illness, accident or injury would not shorten his life.  41 seems like it is short.

But my skewed view of things is probably helpful.  I think people, including prophets are given revelations or inspirations for blessings that they don't understand so they try and fill in the blanks or make it fit their understanding and generally make a mess of it.  Later on we get further light and knowledge to help straighten out our messes.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

is God now bound to give him that calling? People can say whatever they want but is God bound to honour those things? how would the person getting the blessing supposed to know God won't give you whatever it is, despite what is said?

I would say God does not live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of men, so He is not bound by that, only by what He speaks through them. We are bound to live by every word that proceedeth forth from His mouth, and yes, that includes that which He speaks through his servants, or His words that are spoken by the voice of His servants. His servants are not supposed to say whatever they want (D&C 68:4), so if they do, "Amen to the priesthood or authority of that man," which renders it not binding to anyone. How does the recipient of a blessing in good faith know when a servant of God is speaking out of line? Since knowledge follows faith, it will be revealed to him in due time (sometimes sooner, sometimes later), but he will never be punished for acting in good faith. This is why we are to continually balance the past, present and future of what we do know (i.e. living the truth in our lives) with the help of the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost as we go forth in faith. When we don't, God is not bound by what was spoken in His name either way.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, rockpond said:

Didn't Pres. Kimball bless Michael Quinn that he would one day be called as an apostle?  I don't think God is bound to honor everything we say in blessings.

I don't know whether such a blessing was ever actually given to Mike, but (whatever the case), all blessings are conditional -- except the Abrahamic Covenant:

D&C 130:20-21, "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."

Isaiah 1:19, "If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land."

Alma 36:30, "Inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land; . . . inasmuch as ye will not keep the commandments of God ye shall be cut off from his presence."

[Duncan]

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

I don't know whether such a blessing was ever actually given to Mike, but (whatever the case), all blessings are conditional -- except the Abrahamic Covenant:

D&C 130:20-21, "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."

Isaiah 1:19, "If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land."

Alma 36:30, "Inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land; . . . inasmuch as ye will not keep the commandments of God ye shall be cut off from his presence."

What would you say to someone who died before the realization of their blessings? are they at fault for dying or doesn't God know when they are going to die, why say something to someone if he knows when they will die or if he doesn't know when then why make promises he can't fulfill? 

[rockpond]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I don't know whether such a blessing was ever actually given to Mike, but (whatever the case), all blessings are conditional -- except the Abrahamic Covenant:

D&C 130:20-21, "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."

Isaiah 1:19, "If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land."

Alma 36:30, "Inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land; . . . inasmuch as ye will not keep the commandments of God ye shall be cut off from his presence."

So, an 85 year old lady is dying of cancer and receives a blessing from her home teacher that she will be healed.  She still dies of cancer.  I guess the Lord was bound by the blessing but she just failed to live up to the conditions of the blessing.

Basically you are saying that whatever a priesthood holder promises in a blessing has to come to fruition if only the recipient can figure out and obey some unknown law that is tied to the promise.  Also, by that logic, the blessing becomes somewhat unnecessary.  We just have to discover the mystery formula that unlocks any desired result.

Pretty much the same as the Lord not being bound.

[Glenn101]

17 minutes ago, rockpond said:

So, an 85 year old lady is dying of cancer and receives a blessing from her home teacher that she will be healed.  She still dies of cancer.  I guess the Lord was bound by the blessing but she just failed to live up to the conditions of the blessing.

Basically you are saying that whatever a priesthood holder promises in a blessing has to come to fruition if only the recipient can figure out and obey some unknown law that is tied to the promise.  Also, by that logic, the blessing becomes somewhat unnecessary.  We just have to discover the mystery formula that unlocks any desired result.

Pretty much the same as the Lord not being bound.

Doctrine and Covenants 42:48 And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath faith in me to be healed, and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed.

Two caveats.

Glenn

[emeliza]

37 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

Doctrine and Covenants 42:48 And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath faith in me to be healed, and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed.

Two caveats.

Glenn

So that puts us back to the first thought, was the priesthood holder making up the blessing or uninspired than?  Or were they inspired to give a blessing that was untrue or couldn't happen?  

If it was not inspired, how does the recipient know?

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, Duncan said:

What would you say to someone who died before the realization of their blessings? are they at fault for dying or doesn't God know when they are going to die, why say something to someone if he knows when they will die or if he doesn't know when then why make promises he can't fulfill? 

Too many what-ifs.  Just because someone has received a blessing from a real priesthood holder does not automatically guarantee anything,.  One has to ask first whether the blessing was part of a set LDS ritual, including temple rites, setting apart to callings, etc.  In some cases, what is sealed on Earth is sealed in Heaven.  Otherwise, man proposes, and God disposes.  Not all blessings are equal.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

So, an 85 year old lady is dying of cancer and receives a blessing from her home teacher that she will be healed.  She still dies of cancer.  I guess the Lord was bound by the blessing but she just failed to live up to the conditions of the blessing.

Basically you are saying that whatever a priesthood holder promises in a blessing has to come to fruition if only the recipient can figure out and obey some unknown law that is tied to the promise.  Also, by that logic, the blessing becomes somewhat unnecessary.  We just have to discover the mystery formula that unlocks any desired result.

Pretty much the same as the Lord not being bound.

What part of "conditional" did you not understand, rockpond?  And where  did you get that "unknown law"?  Blessings are not magical incantations.  Just because some home teacher or friend administers a blessing does in no way guarantee that it will be fulfilled.  That is just silly.  The HT may speak on his own account, without inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  Like prophecy, there is both true and false prophecy, so with some off-the-wall blessings.  Read the Bible.  God is not responsible for wishful thinking, even though a prayer of faith may indeed be of great value -- if it is in line with God's will.  Sometimes, as with Abraham and Moses, one  must even argue the point with God Himself -- because he will engage in just that sort of discourse, and honors his children who take the time to reason with him, or to fast and pray on behalf of someone in need.  We should not take the temple Prayer Circle lightly, and always bear in mind that the prayer of faith availeth much.  It is not a guarantee.

[rongo]

One of the things that I love about the restored gospel is priesthood blessings. In my experience, sometimes we feel strongly the will of the Lord, and can clearly distinguish it from our own thoughts. Sometimes we aren't sure. And sometimes we don't feel anything, but have to give the blessing, anyway. I think this is by design, and is part of our education and experience here on earth. As President Kimball (and other prophets, including from the BoM), taught, if we had 100% success discerning revelation and inspiration, it actually wouldn't be a good thing and would stunt our growth and progress. The failures we experience in discerning actually are the contrast by which we know the successes. 

I take great comfort from what Elder Oaks taught in an important priesthood session talk years ago. He said that the recipient of a blessing gets the blessing the Lord has for them, regardless of what is said in the blessing. I have had many "arise, take up they bed, and walk," experiences in giving blessings, but I've also had failures (or what appear to be failures to the natural man). I've shared before my extreme example of giving a blessing and telling the woman in a coma that she would recover and live, and she died a few days later. I didn't clearly feel what should be said, and as I struggled with that, I felt to say that, even though it was not as clear as other instances where it is very clear. I worried about the effect of that on the family, but the non-member family was very happy and at peace when she died, despite the blessing, and the nurse who was performing the transfusion when we gave the blessing demanded of them to know what church we were from. She felt something strong. It was a unique circumstance, because we were sent by a non-member who attended church regularly, and we explained that her faith and her family's faith would be a factor, and we talked to the family in the ICU before giving the blessing. The outcome of the blessing was actually very positive, even though the prophecy "failed."

Elder Oaks's counsel should encourage men who are afraid of "getting it wrong," and therefore are timid and "play it safe" in giving blessings, not really saying much. President Packer taught that we should prophecy, and leave it up to the Lord to fulfill it (the subject of this thread is whether this binds the Lord or not). I think that sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't, and neither the giver nor the recipient always know for sure which one it is --- and that this is as it should be. 

Much of this dovetails with a FAIR paper I wrote years ago about infallibility. 

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/well-nigh-as-dangerous#enloc59

Some relevant thoughts are:

1) We crave certainty in discerning the will of the Lord and revelation. Is absolute certainty actually desirable? (cf. footnote 59, B.H. Roberts).

2) When we are worthy to receive and have real need of revelation, and God chooses not to give it in that instance, we do the best we can and "God is bound to own and honor that transaction, and he will do so to all intents and purposes." (Brigham Young, footnote 60) 

Some of my biggest learning experiences have been when I had real need of revelation, and was worthy and capable of receiving it, but God has withheld it. This happens in blessings, sometimes, and it may be as much for others connected with the blessing as much as for the giver or the recipient.

 

[Duncan]

This is the reason I never get blessings, heck I haven't even been set apart for my current calling yet and I have had it for a year! I just live my life and whatever happens happens, I go to Church, pray, scriptures, Temple and I just can't live life on what ifs and possibilities. I have my Patriarchal Blessing and all but one thing hasn't happened and so I am left wondering well what is going on here? It even says, "This will come to pass as you are true and faithful" does God think I am not that, am I wasting time with the Church or what?

Edited February 4, 2017 by Duncan

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

This is the reason I never get blessings, heck I haven't even been set apart for my current calling yet and I have had it for a year! I just live my life and whatever happens happens, I go to Church, pray, scriptures, Temple and I just can't live life on what ifs and possibilities. I have my Patriarchal Blessing and all but one thing hasn't happened and so I am left wondering well what is going on here? It even says, "This will come to pass as you are true and faithful" does God think I am not that, am I wasting time with the Church or what?

Sounds to me as though you are doing well, even if you are bored and uncertain.  Life is filled with uncertainties.  That is the human condition, no matter how observant and prayerful you may be.  A good Mormon needs to say something like "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead."  And "May the Devil take the hindmost."  Reminds me of Conan saying to his compatriots, "Do you want to live forever?"  Well, we are going to live forever.  We are not wasting our time.

[Robert F. Smith]

David John Buerger  once laid out the parallel between God's granting of sealing power to Nephi, son of Helaman (Hela 10:7, 11:4), and Jesus' grant of binding power to Peter/Simon bar Yona (Mat 16:18-19, 18:18 ∥ Jn 20:23), but he also said that both are "clearly . . . patterned on the account of Elijah the Tishbite 'sealing' the heavens by drought in I Ki 17" (17:1 -- the word "sealing" does not actually occur here; he notes other Nephi-Elijah connections in Hela 5:30 ∥ I Ki 19:11-12).¹  He suggests that the shift from KJV "bind" to Book of Mormon "seal" may have been Joseph's way of deleting "papist" connotations,² but this ignores rabbinical usage of the terms "bind" and "loose" with both juridical and doctrinal thrust, i.e., "condemnation" and "absolution," or "forbidden" and "allowed,"³ although Hiers and Basser have rejected rabbinic comparisons as being too late.⁴

---

     ¹  Buerger in Dialogue, 16/1:13-14, and n. 9; cf. Lk 4:25-26, and the Inspired Version of Genesis 14:26-32; cf. also J. L. Houlden, Patterns of Faith, 41, for the similarities of Jesus to Elijah in Lk 7:11-17 ∥I Ki 17:17-24, and contrast in Lk 9:54-55 ∥II Ki 1:10ff.  My unpublished paper on "Elijah & Elias" (1985) broadens the discussion and adds other parallels, including also parallels with Elisha (multiplication of loaves in II Ki 4:42-44 ∥Mat 14:20, Mk 6:43, 8:19, Lk 9:17, Jn 6:13 ∥Gospel of the Twelve Apostles, frag. 2 ∥Krishna in Mahabharata ∥III Nephi 18 & 20).  See below.

     ²  Buerger, Dialogue, 16/1:13-14; other anti-papist passages are suggested in his n. 10: I Nephi 13:4-9,24-29, 14:10-17, II Nephi 28:18-28; cf. Susan Curtis Mernitz in John Whitmer Historical Association Journal, II:34 -- see her more detailed views on 27-30 of her May 10, 1977 JWHA Symposium paper, "PALMYRA REVISITED: A Look at Early 19th Century American Thought and the Book of Mormon."

     ³  Jerusalem Bible, sub voce Mat 16:19; Talmud Babli Moˁed Qatan 16a, Ḥagiga 3b, "bind" ∥"release," i.e., "release from ban," etc., cited by J. D. M. Derrett, "Binding and Loosing (Matt 16:19, 18:18, John 20:23)," Journal of Biblical Literature, 102 (1983):112-117.

     ⁴  Richard H. Hiers, "'Binding' and 'Loosing': The Matthean Authorizations," JBL 104 (1985):233-250 (employing intertestamental literature against Strack & Billerbeck), and Herbert W. Basser, "Derrett's 'Binding' Reopened," 104:297-300; both argue that the NT refers to the granting of liberty from the forthcoming chains of death, or the binding thereto (Heaven accepting the dictates of the churches), rather than permitting or forbidding activities here and now.