Duncan Posted January 25, 2017 Posted January 25, 2017 in Alma 42:30 we read 30 O my son, I desire that ye should deny the ajustice of God no more. Do not endeavor to excuse yourself in the least point because of your sins, by denying the justice of God; but do you let the justice of God, and his bmercy, and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in chumility. The phrase in question is "But do you let the justice of God, and his mercy, and his long suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in humility" To me the words "do you let" is a question but there is no question mark, what's the story? see that's a question with a question mark
Bobbieaware Posted January 25, 2017 Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Duncan said: in Alma 42:30 we read 30 O my son, I desire that ye should deny the ajustice of God no more. Do not endeavor to excuse yourself in the least point because of your sins, by denying the justice of God; but do you let the justice of God, and his bmercy, and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in chumility. The phrase in question is "But do you let the justice of God, and his mercy, and his long suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in humility" To me the words "do you let" is a question but there is no question mark, what's the story? see that's a question with a question mark 1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; (2 Corinthians 8:1) Answer your question? Edited January 25, 2017 by Bobbieaware
Popular Post Calm Posted January 25, 2017 Popular Post Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) Apparently it is a nonquestion construction using the imperative form. Hopefully this brings up the book that has some examples: https://books.google.com/books?id=dK5DAAAAIAAJ&pg=PT53&lpg=PT53&dq="do+you+let"+english&source=bl&ots=zguEIziu0C&sig=iF-ukW9OyR59f5WbzyGhJ9k9lOo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZgtyR3dzRAhVJ_WMKHa5sBtEQ6AEIIjAD#v=onepage&q="do you let" english&f=false Seems to be an obsolete form labeled "affirmative imperative": http://www.sfu.ca/~chunghye/papers/digs.pdf see start of page 7 for an example Edited January 25, 2017 by Calm 5
Duncan Posted January 25, 2017 Author Posted January 25, 2017 Just now, Bobbieaware said: 1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; (2 Corinthians 8:1) Answer your question? That's a military answer, clear, concise and makes no sense whatsoever 2
Bobbieaware Posted January 25, 2017 Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Duncan said: That's a military answer, clear, concise and makes no sense whatsoever Take out the word 'you' and it reads "do let the justice of God." So since I've already shown you that the Bible also uses "do you" without the two words forming a question, what, then, does the archaic 'do you' mean? I looked it up and it means "I want you." So in modern English it says, "I want you to let the justice of God..." Edited January 25, 2017 by Bobbieaware 2
Bernard Gui Posted January 25, 2017 Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, Calm said: Apparently it is a nonquestion construction using the imperative form. Hopefully this brings up the book that has some examples: https://books.google.com/books?id=dK5DAAAAIAAJ&pg=PT53&lpg=PT53&dq="do+you+let"+english&source=bl&ots=zguEIziu0C&sig=iF-ukW9OyR59f5WbzyGhJ9k9lOo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZgtyR3dzRAhVJ_WMKHa5sBtEQ6AEIIjAD#v=onepage&q="do you let" english&f=false Seems to be an obsolete form labeled "affirmative imperative": http://www.sfu.ca/~chunghye/papers/digs.pdf see start of page 7 for an example One example in your references precisely fits the BoM usage. How did you find these? Quote Comparing the development of do forms in questions and imperatives raises another puzzle. In Middle English, subject-verb inversion is attested in both questions and imperatives, indicating verb movement to C for both types of sentences, as was shown in (3) and (11). If do support is triggered in questions as a reflex of the loss of V-I movement, as proposed in Roberts (1985) and Kroch (1989b), then we expect to see imperatives pattern with questions with respect to the development of the corresponding do forms. However, as can be seen in Figure 1, the rate of use of do forms in negative imperatives is much lower than the rate of use of do forms in questions at all periods prior to the completion of the change. It is only after 1700 that the rate of use of do forms in negative imperatives catches up with the rate in questions. As for affirmative imperatives with do forms, the relative frequency is extremely low. The relative frequency of do in affirmative imperatives never exceeds 1% according to Ellegård (1953), who therefore does not plot them in Figure 1. Here are some examples of negative imperatives and affirmative imperatives with do-support: (16) Negative imperatives a. Sir, do not marvel if I do bless your coming hither (344 21-17) b. Alas syr kinge Pepyn doo not moue your selfe in Ire (304 46-13) c. doe not wrong the gentleman, and thy selfe too. (360 I:435)... (17) Affirmative Imperatives a. Rather, O God! do thou have mercy on us (323 355-8-34) [Alma: but do you let the justice of God, and his mercy and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart;] b. Do you let it alone. (350 7-24) c. Do you and your fellows attend them in. (361 M:5-1-106) In Present-day English, although do-support is required in negative imperatives, it is not allowed in (non-emphatic) affirmative imperatives. If both questions and imperatives had verb movement to C , then it is mysterious why there should be this asymmetry in the rate of development of do forms in questions and negative imperatives. Moreover, if 0both questions and imperatives had verb movement to C , it is even more mysterious why do in affirmative imperatives is not categorical, whereas it is in questions. Edited January 25, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
Calm Posted January 25, 2017 Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: One example in your references precisely fits the BoM usage. How did you find these? I did a google search on "do you let" and skimmed until I found something fitting. Once I figured out what it was, I added "imperative" and the best information came to the top. Edited January 25, 2017 by Calm 2
waveslider Posted January 25, 2017 Posted January 25, 2017 13 hours ago, Duncan said: in Alma 42:30 we read 30 O my son, I desire that ye should deny the ajustice of God no more. Do not endeavor to excuse yourself in the least point because of your sins, by denying the justice of God; but do you let the justice of God, and his bmercy, and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in chumility. The phrase in question is "But do you let the justice of God, and his mercy, and his long suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in humility" To me the words "do you let" is a question but there is no question mark, what's the story? see that's a question with a question mark I have been told that punctuation wasn't there when the BoM was translated. If there was a comma between the word, "do," and the word, "you," I think it would be easier to see at not being a question. Thanks for bringing that up. I never even noticed that before, even though I have read it many times over. It's funny how there is always something more to see each and every time I re-read scripture. 2
Glenn101 Posted January 25, 2017 Posted January 25, 2017 2 hours ago, waveslider said: I have been told that punctuation wasn't there when the BoM was translated. If there was a comma between the word, "do," and the word, "you," I think it would be easier to see at not being a question. Thanks for bringing that up. I never even noticed that before, even though I have read it many times over. It's funny how there is always something more to see each and every time I re-read scripture. Possible, but I think that this is probably more of the Early Modern English that has been found in the Book of Mormon, as evidenced by the comments and research of Calm and Bernard Gui. 1
Jude2 Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Why not just write to the Prophet and ask him to add the ? It's okay the world won't fall apart.
champatsch Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) Alma 42:30 gives us an example of an emphatic or contrastive positive imperative (the contrast is shown by but). From the linked paper by Chung-hye Han (DiGS V, 1998): "In Present-day English, although do-support is required in negative imperatives, it is not allowed in (non-emphatic) affirmative imperatives." A present-day relic is "do tell (me/us)", but without the pronoun you. Han gave early modern examples of the positive imperative with periphrastic do, stating that Ellegard (1953) noted that they occurred at a low rate in the early modern period (less than 1% of the time). The non-emphatic, non-contrastive way to express it was without do, as in modern English. Here are two late 17c examples I just found on EEBO: (1685, A67704 | page 48) And do you let us know your mind in this, whether you are for carrying on the War yet, or for disbanding the Army. (1694, A55016 | page 198) Gri. If you be at the Head, I’ll keep at the Steerage.—Let go the Lines, Rogue. Tra. Shall I so? Do you let go the Portmantle. Can anyone find some 18c examples (from the 1700s)? It would be good to note whatever might be out there. The biblical example "we do you to wit" means 'we want you to know', according to modern versions. This is a different construction: "do you" followed by the infinitival preposition to. Imperative "do you let" may be another bit of archaic syntax in the Book of Mormon that was very rare by the 1820s. Tellingly, the systematic usage of periphrastic did in the text matches usage found in the early modern period, and no other time, on multiple levels. It isn't found in Joseph Smith's 1832 History at all, even though there are almost 90 instances of past-tense main verbs when it could have been used. Edited January 29, 2017 by champatsch
mrmarklin Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 On 1/24/2017 at 10:25 PM, Duncan said: in Alma 42:30 we read 30 O my son, I desire that ye should deny the ajustice of God no more. Do not endeavor to excuse yourself in the least point because of your sins, by denying the justice of God; but do you let the justice of God, and his bmercy, and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in chumility. The phrase in question is "But do you let the justice of God, and his mercy, and his long suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in humility" To me the words "do you let" is a question but there is no question mark, what's the story? see that's a question with a question mark It's an imperative sentence. A command. 1
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