Balance of Power in the Church and Righteousness

[Meadowchik]

This can be a tough one if you ever see it from the weaker end.

We're taught that our leaders decide on important matters like membership and temple worthiness. So what happens when a corrupt human element influences leadership decisions? (Has anyone NOT heard of corruption at the local leadership Ievel?) 

In reality, regular members have no clear form of recourse if they find that they're being treated unjustly by leadership. Sure they might approach a higher-up, but what is the process? As far as I know, there's no actual protocol for this though I could be wrong.

This, imo, is why acts of judgment must be treated with the most sacred of respect and humility. There is not a built-in system of checks and balances in the process, at least not in the objective sense.

The major intended safety net is obviously the Spirit. Then there's protocol for disciplinary action, but it's far from guaranteed to work.

I've had life-transforming experiences through what I believe was inspired guidance from my church leaders. But I've also been hurt. So how do you process that pain if you've been mistreated by the Church?

And are there any here who've ever apologised for anything they've said or done under the priesthood mantle? Personally I've heard (what I thought was) implied apology but never actual words for it, from local leadership. I think it could be good if we were more free to apologise, and if we heard apologies when we've been wronged by leaders. As a mom I feel like me apologizing to my children has engendered more trusting relationships. We cannot get along honestly without the habit of apology.

 

[The Nehor]

You call the Stake President. Or Area Authority. I personally prefer to take these issues to the top and complain to the CEO (God). Sometimes I just have to let some unfairness slide. I try to look at the bright side. If I forgive my leaders their foibles and errors and sins I have a much better chance of getting away with mine.

[cdowis]

I was told very specifically on how to handle a certain ongoing very ugly situation == "Just ignore it and move on."

Well in my case I did what I was told.  A few months later the ward boundaries changed.  

A miracle.  Problem solved!

[bsjkki]

I have found the default of church leadership is to back up priesthood leaders. I have no trust valid issues would be addressed unless provable and egregious.  It took a lot of public pressure and evidence for BYU to address the issues with the treatment of sexual assault victims. I don't think a normal congregant has much of a chance. Most Bishop-member grievances fall into the he said/she said category.

[cdowis]

12 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I have found the default of church leadership is to back up priesthood leaders.

I think that you don't know what church leadership does. It is very unlikely that they will tell you what they are going to do with the situation, and, unless the bishop is released, you may never know.

That is how thing are done both in church and in business.  Leaders usually do not overtly take sides.

[Meadowchik]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You call the Stake President. Or Area Authority. I personally prefer to take these issues to the top and complain to the CEO (God). Sometimes I just have to let some unfairness slide. I try to look at the bright side. If I forgive my leaders their foibles and errors and sins I have a much better chance of getting away with mine.

All good suggestions.

It does get tougher, however, when the consequences of unfairness become severe.

Personally I have a testimony that no improper judgment of a priesthood leader can affect my standing before God or my eternal relationship with my family, but I feel for those that believe the opposite and who are treated unfairly. And I feel for those severely hurt by the Church. This, to this extent, at least, is a fairly new awareness! I just turned forty, did God say I was ready for the stickier stuff or what??  

[Meadowchik]

4 hours ago, cdowis said:

I think that you don't know what church leadership does. It is very unlikely that they will tell you what they are going to do with the situation, and, unless the bishop is released, you may never know.

That is how thing are done both in church and in business.  Leaders usually do not overtly take sides.

Yup I agree. We might have the impression that no corrective measures have been attempted when they have.

Note: I think there is a reason church policies, much of them at least, have arised: time and experience have been teachers. 

[Meadowchik]

Going from the bishop, stake president, area authority, etc..., that's typically the strongest response but it's not a built-in, automatic process. The system is not set up to automatically check if intervention is appropriate or well done. Some systems have built-in checks and balances. I understand the Church is a complex system and human beings should be given some slack. But I am interested in the relationship between the inherent behaviour of the system, its integrity, and its stated missions.

In an interview with Larry King, President Hinckley said the Church needs to to simplify itself. He also said the the Church helps bad men become good and good men become better. It seems to me that he was pondering these relationships, too.

[bsjkki]

12 hours ago, cdowis said:

I think that you don't know what church leadership does. It is very unlikely that they will tell you what they are going to do with the situation, and, unless the bishop is released, you may never know.

That is how thing are done both in church and in business.  Leaders usually do not overtly take sides.

This response proves my point...and is not true in the business world. Good managers investigate problems and retrain/fire and inform victims of actions taken. When these actions are not taken, that is when the lawsuits begin. 

Again, BYU is a good example of ignoring the problem and then having it blow up. One vocal student brought about a flood of grievances, some decades old. Why did it take so long to understand there was a problem? Were individual complaints ignored? I read of a very angry father who was incensed with how his daughter was treated but found no recourse with BYU. 

When/if the church handles complaints your way...true victims are left feeling like the church doesn't care about them and that the church cares more about the institution than individuals. The private aspect of these interactions leaves Bishops in a terrible position also as discussed in past threads. There are no easy solutions to this issue with our current ecclesiastical structure. 

I finally worked up some courage and expressed a concern with a stake presidency member. It was a pointless endevour. It made me feel even more that they just don't care about the harm done.

Edited January 21, 2017 by bsjkki

[Meadowchik]

19 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

This response proves my point...and is not true in the business world. Good managers investigate problems and retrain/fire and inform victims of actions taken. When these actions are not taken, that is when the lawsuits begin. 

Again, BYU is a good example of ignoring the problem and then having it blow up. One vocal student brought about a flood of grievances, some decades old. Why did it take so long to understand there was a problem? We're individual complaints ignored? I read of a very angry father who was incensed with how his daughter was treated but found no recourse with BYU. 

When/if the church handles complaints your way...true victims are left feeling like the church doesn't care about them and that the church cares more about the institution than individuals. The private aspect of these interactions leaves Bishops in a terrible position also as discussed in past threads. There are no easy solutions to this issue with our current ecclesiastical structure. 

I finally worked up some courage and expressed a concern with a stake presidency member. It was a pointless endevour. It made me feel even more that they just don't care about the harm done.

A close friend recently shared to me her daughter's harrowing experience: 

Because an ex-boyfriend's mission was delayed, that boyfriend's father used his position as YSA ward bishop to find out and dig up details of her past from HER bishopS including issues where she'd fully repented. Apparently he did this to try to change the disciplinary decision about his son by painting her as a temptress. She went through a very hard time after that and eventually became exasperated about being re-punished for things for which she'd already been told she was forgiven.

She left BYU, left the Church, married and started a family of her own. She's now busy living a good life with a loving family and beautiful toddler.  But not in the Church.

So, speaking of the system, what results when things like this happen?  People including the righteous suffer unjustly, unrighteousness is rewarded and the balance in the Church is negatively affected.

[Duncan]

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

A close friend recently shared to me her daughter's harrowing experience: 

Because an ex-boyfriend's mission was delayed, that boyfriend's father used his position as YSA ward bishop to find out and dig up details of her past from HER bishopS including issues where she'd fully repented. Apparently he did this to try to change the disciplinary decision about his son by painting her as a temptress. She went through a very hard time after that and eventually became exasperated about being re-punished for things for which she'd already been told she was forgiven.

She left BYU, left the Church, married and started a family of her own. She's now busy living a good life with a loving family and beautiful toddler.  But not in the Church.

So, speaking of the system, what results when things like this happen?  People including the righteous suffer unjustly, unrighteousness is rewarded and the balance in the Church is negatively affected.

Sometimes I've found through personal experience that leaders will go the distance for you against what other leaders did or didn't and try to correct whatever happened. I met  a lady in LA that was molested for years by her dad who was a district president in Mexico and she told someone about it but rather than her dad getting in trouble she did and she got the boot from the church. Years later someone reached out to her from the Church and she met with a Stake President and she told him what all happened. He talked to a GA about it and he met with her and ultimately her dad got exed and she got reinstated into the Church. So, that should have happened years before but it didn't. Another girl I know is her dad (who was my first YSA Branch President) he also abused her and was abusive to his wife. The wife complained to the stake and she got told "oh, he wouldn't do that, he's a nice man" and then he got the branch president calling and later he got called into the Temple Presidency. His wife complained but nothing was over done about it. The daughter got exed for sexually acting out when she was 18 and I saw her mother at Church maybe 2015 now and I was surprised to see her! she was visiting but she came to Church. Her husband had died and I figure he escaped church justice here but not where he is now. He was a guy too that had all these leadership callings and whatever. The daughter is still out of the Church and so I don't know what god will do to fix all that and can't says I blame the daughter for leaving. Same guy was the Branch President that had this new RM guy, new EQ President he came home in May and by Sept had this new convert pregnant and nothing happened to him. Nothing. No discipline, nothing. I was his counsellor is how I know this. Meanwhile i'm bawling my eyes out in the branch president's office because of you check out out a girl's bum and you feel so guilty about it. I know another family here same sort of thing, dad was a monster (his oldest son is mid 40's still has scars on his back from his dad's beltI saw them myself), RM, Bishop, High Council- 7 kids only 2 are active-just a waste if you ask me

Edited January 21, 2017 by Duncan

[Meadowchik]

55 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Sometimes I've found through personal experience that leaders will go the distance for you against what other leaders did or didn't and try to correct whatever happened. I met  a lady in LA that was molested for years by her dad who was a district president in Mexico and she told someone about it but rather than her dad getting in trouble she did and she got the boot from the church. Years later someone reached out to her from the Church and she met with a Stake President and she told him what all happened. He talked to a GA about it and he met with her and ultimately her dad got exed and she got reinstated into the Church. So, that should have happened years before but it didn't. Another girl I know is her dad (who was my first YSA Branch President) he also abused her and was abusive to his wife. The wife complained to the stake and she got told "oh, he wouldn't do that, he's a nice man" and then he got the branch president calling and later he got called into the Temple Presidency. His wife complained but nothing was over done about it. The daughter got exed for sexually acting out when she was 18 and I saw her mother at Church maybe 2015 now and I was surprised to see her! she was visiting but she came to Church. Her husband had died and I figure he escaped church justice here but not where he is now. He was a guy too that had all these leadership callings and whatever. The daughter is still out of the Church and so I don't know what god will do to fix all that and can't says I blame the daughter for leaving. Same guy was the Branch President that had this new RM guy, new EQ President he came home in May and by Sept had this new convert pregnant and nothing happened to him. Nothing. No discipline, nothing. I was his counsellor is how I know this. Meanwhile i'm bawling my eyes out in the branch president's office because of you check out out a girl's bum and you feel so guilty about it. I know another family here same sort of thing, dad was a monster (his oldest son is mid 40's still has scars on his back from his dad's beltI saw them myself), RM, Bishop, High Council- 7 kids only 2 are active-just a waste if you ask me

So, so sad!!!!

[cdowis]

7 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I have found there is only one way to answer someone who is ranting and raving about the injustices in the world.

Again, BYU is a good example of ignoring the problem and then having it blow up. One vocal student brought about a flood of grievances, some decades old. Why did it take so long to understand there was a problem?

CFR, details and your sources.

We're individual complaints ignored? I read of a very angry father who was incensed with how his daughter was treated but found no recourse with BYU. 

You READ about this?  And what is BYU's side of the story == or is this just something that the girl told her father, he then complained to BYU, and they investigated but found that she was not telling the entire truth.

GIVE US FACTS AND DETAILS, PLEEZE.

 

Edited January 21, 2017 by cdowis

[CV75]

14 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

This can be a tough one if you ever see it from the weaker end.

We're taught that our leaders decide on important matters like membership and temple worthiness. So what happens when a corrupt human element influences leadership decisions? (Has anyone NOT heard of corruption at the local leadership Ievel?) 

In reality, regular members have no clear form of recourse if they find that they're being treated unjustly by leadership. Sure they might approach a higher-up, but what is the process? As far as I know, there's no actual protocol for this though I could be wrong.

This, imo, is why acts of judgment must be treated with the most sacred of respect and humility. There is not a built-in system of checks and balances in the process, at least not in the objective sense.

The major intended safety net is obviously the Spirit. Then there's protocol for disciplinary action, but it's far from guaranteed to work.

I've had life-transforming experiences through what I believe was inspired guidance from my church leaders. But I've also been hurt. So how do you process that pain if you've been mistreated by the Church?

And are there any here who've ever apologised for anything they've said or done under the priesthood mantle? Personally I've heard (what I thought was) implied apology but never actual words for it, from local leadership. I think it could be good if we were more free to apologise, and if we heard apologies when we've been wronged by leaders. As a mom I feel like me apologizing to my children has engendered more trusting relationships. We cannot get along honestly without the habit of apology.

From my experience, when the pain of forgiveness exceeds the pain of the offense, therein lies the problem for the offended. This is not to blame the victim in any way, but to remember to place the burden on the Lord, which He invites us to do, whether it is to forgive or to find comfort and relief, which is more often than not the same thing.

I have had the uncomfortable experience of having been chastised by the Spirit over things I've said to individuals as a leader, and as a result have gone back to the person and checked in with them to apologize. I may never know whether or how that person was really affected by what I said, or whether they even needed an apology, but I do know they were appreciative of my gesture (and I did what I was chastised to do!).

There is no process other than the administrative transaction for receiving inspired guidance, and the same goes for suffering uninspired and uncharitable offense. The life transformation (for better or worse) comes from applying what was administered in that leader-member process, whether for edification or ruin, and that is between the individual and God. Of course one can always go to the next level of leadership for counseling, or in more egregious cases, the legal or public safety systems.

[Meadowchik]

11 minutes ago, cdowis said:

 

"I have found there is only one way to answer someone who is ranting and raving about the injustices in the world."

Who is ranting and raving?

This post is not about injustices of the world, but about injustice within the Lord's Church. Surely, you agree, God will not let an unjust determination by priesthood holders stand in the eternities, right?

But in the meantime, unjust actions by church leadership, including at times iniquity, do frustrate the mission of the Church,  the Lord's work.  Hopefully none of us merely wish to wave hands at it and forget it.

What interests me is how the system safeguards for such problems and how we mitigate damage caused within the gaps.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

From my experience, when the pain of forgiveness exceeds the pain of the offense, therein lies the problem for the offended. This is not to blame the victim in any way, but to remember to place the burden on the Lord, which He invites us to do, whether it is to forgive or to find comfort and relief, which is more often than not the same thing.

I have had the uncomfortable experience of having been chastised by the Spirit over things I've said to individuals as a leader, and as a result have gone back to the person and checked in with them to apologize. I may never know whether or how that person was really affected by what I said, or whether they even needed an apology, but I do know they were appreciative of my gesture (and I did what I was chastised to do!).

There is no process other than the administrative transaction for receiving inspired guidance, and the same goes for suffering uninspired and uncharitable offense. The life transformation (for better or worse) comes from applying what was administered in that leader-member process, whether for edification or ruin, and that is between the individual and God. Of course one can always go to the next level of leadership for counseling, or in more egregious cases, the legal or public safety systems.

Bless you for heeding the Spirit's chastenings and apologizing. I cannot imagine being very involved with people as a leader and NOT messing up. Apologizing would be a habit, I'm sure. I know that even in my little calling it is necessary to apologise. Thank God for His Spirit to help us--sometimes it is hard to see!

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

All good suggestions.

It does get tougher, however, when the consequences of unfairness become severe.

Personally I have a testimony that no improper judgment of a priesthood leader can affect my standing before God or my eternal relationship with my family, but I feel for those that believe the opposite and who are treated unfairly. And I feel for those severely hurt by the Church. This, to this extent, at least, is a fairly new awareness! I just turned forty, did God say I was ready for the stickier stuff or what??  

I agree that it can be very tough.

[bsjkki]

6 hours ago, cdowis said:

I read of a very angry father who was incensed with how his daughter was treated but found no recourse with BYU. (Bsjkki's words)

You READ about this?  And what is BYU's side of the story == or is this just something that the girl told her father, he then complained to BYU, and they investigated but found that she was not telling the entire truth.

Yes, I read about this in the Salt Lake Tribune which told Maggie McDonald's story. Her father participated in the comments as Angrydad. All of this is documented in the thread below. You continue to prove my point. Your default seems to be the girl is lying and her dad has no reason to be upset. The BYU Honor Code office investigated her after she reported her sexual assault to BYU and found she had not broken the honor code. The real CFR for this is BYU's actions and the changes they are making. It is sad it took so much and so long for BYU to recognize there was an issue. From the Trib, " The report acknowledges that some employees may have brought "biases, attitudes ... and assumptions" to Title IX duties that may have resulted in a "lack of sensitivity" when looking into sexual assault reports." I don't think it is a stretch to understand those same problems exist in Bishops offices. http://www.sltrib.com/home/4353191-155/byu-announces-honor-code-amnesty-for  

 

Edited January 21, 2017 by bsjkki

[cdowis]

del

Edited January 21, 2017 by cdowis

[rodheadlee]

14 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

A close friend recently shared to me her daughter's harrowing experience: 

Because an ex-boyfriend's mission was delayed, that boyfriend's father used his position as YSA ward bishop to find out and dig up details of her past from HER bishopS including issues where she'd fully repented. Apparently he did this to try to change the disciplinary decision about his son by painting her as a temptress. She went through a very hard time after that and eventually became exasperated about being re-punished for things for which she'd already been told she was forgiven.

She left BYU, left the Church, married and started a family of her own. She's now busy living a good life with a loving family and beautiful toddler.  But not in the Church.

So, speaking of the system, what results when things like this happen?  People including the righteous suffer unjustly, unrighteousness is rewarded and the balance in the Church is negatively affected.

it's no different in or out of the Church. Everyone is allowed free will, they will be judged according to their deeds. Many people suffer because of unrighteous deeds. Those who hold high positions and know more will be judged harsher than those who don't know what they do and have no knowledge. Yes it's painful but this life is but a blink of the eye compared to eternity. Think of all of those who are unjustly accused and sent to prison even though they are innocent. No one will make it right in this life, we must have faith that Heavenly Father will make it right..

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

it's no different in or out of the Church. Everyone is allowed free will, they will be judged according to their deeds. Many people suffer because of unrighteous deeds. Those who hold high positions and know more will be judged harsher than those who don't know what they do and have no knowledge. Yes it's painful but this life is but a blink of the eye compared to eternity. Think of all of those who are unjustly accused and sent to prison even though they are innocent. No one will make it right in this life, we must have faith that Heavenly Father will make it right..

Why does God call us to repentence? Why prophets in the first place? So we can wrestle that battle out against iniquity in this life and do better! Why does the Church exist??

 

[mfbukowski]

On 1/20/2017 at 5:25 PM, Meadowchik said:

This can be a tough one if you ever see it from the weaker end.

We're taught that our leaders decide on important matters like membership and temple worthiness. So what happens when a corrupt human element influences leadership decisions? (Has anyone NOT heard of corruption at the local leadership Ievel?) 

In reality, regular members have no clear form of recourse if they find that they're being treated unjustly by leadership. Sure they might approach a higher-up, but what is the process? As far as I know, there's no actual protocol for this though I could be wrong.

This, imo, is why acts of judgment must be treated with the most sacred of respect and humility. There is not a built-in system of checks and balances in the process, at least not in the objective sense.

The major intended safety net is obviously the Spirit. Then there's protocol for disciplinary action, but it's far from guaranteed to work.

I've had life-transforming experiences through what I believe was inspired guidance from my church leaders. But I've also been hurt. So how do you process that pain if you've been mistreated by the Church?

And are there any here who've ever apologised for anything they've said or done under the priesthood mantle? Personally I've heard (what I thought was) implied apology but never actual words for it, from local leadership. I think it could be good if we were more free to apologise, and if we heard apologies when we've been wronged by leaders. As a mom I feel like me apologizing to my children has engendered more trusting relationships. We cannot get along honestly without the habit of apology.

 

Definitely talk to the SP or if that fails, the Area Authority.   If you cannot figure out who that is, I think a letter to Church Headquarters is warranted- make it to the First Presidency.

They might never see it, but you will get a letter back which will be helpful.  Worst case- which is what you want anyway- they will contact your SP and tell him to take care of this mess.   If that fails, continue sending letters.  I can help you figure out who your area authority is if you PM me after you have tried these other avenues.

But don't just let it go.  You deserve at least an apology.

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Definitely talk to the SP or if that fails, the Area Authority.   If you cannot figure out who that is, I think a letter to Church Headquarters is warranted- make it to the First Presidency.

They might never see it, but you will get a letter back which will be helpful.  Worst case- which is what you want anyway- they will contact your SP and tell him to take care of this mess.   If that fails, continue sending letters.  I can help you figure out who your area authority is if you PM me after you have tried these other avenues.

But don't just let it go.  You deserve at least an apology.

Thank you very much for the support.  It's much appreciated! 

I didn't intend to make this post about me, though. I'd like to talk about this systemically.  Are the gaps in the system exclusively human error? Is the tendency toward error adequately addressed? 

Edited January 22, 2017 by Meadowchik

[mfbukowski]

This is a volunteer organization. 

Leaders are very busy people. They get a lot of complaints and demands from the membership. The bishop wants to get home, but there is always one more interview, one more phone call, one more emergency check to write for welfare. 

 This is not set up to be a customer service operation.  There is no 800 number for complaints.

 Leaders talk to other leaders, and presume their competency. After all someone else picked this guy to handle his problems. There is a mentality that if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.  I think there is a tacit assumption that if this other leader cannot handle his problems who am I to step in?  Can I go home now?

On the other hand this is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 We have to do better.

 

[mfbukowski]

This is a volunteer organization. 

Leaders are very busy people. They get a lot of complaints and demands from the membership. The bishop wants to get home, but there is always one more interview, one more phone call, one more emergency check to write for welfare. 

 This is not set up to be a customer service operation.  There is no 800 number for complaints.

 Leaders talk to other leaders, and presume their competency. After all someone else picked this guy to handle his problems. There is a mentality that if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.  I think there is a tacit assumption that if this other leader cannot handle his problems who am I to step in?  Can I go home now?

On the other hand this is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 We have to do better.

One solution might be for someone on the High Council To take these kind of complaints and follow up on them  and be kind of an arbitrator between the bishop and the Stake president

I can see how something like that might work and also might not work. I wish I had the answer.

 

Edited January 23, 2017 by mfbukowski