Religion offers you salvation to a problem that didn't exist until it created it.

[The Nehor]

34 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Yup Religion manufacture's the sin, drills into you how you should feel should you commit the so called sin...then invented the means to escape from the guilt the religion caused you to have from the sin they invented...

Life Hack:  You can always become a narcissist instead.

[Johnnie Cake]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Life Hack:  You can always become a narcissist instead.

Original idea or did you hack/scab it from Lifehacker.com

[The Nehor]

Just now, Johnnie Cake said:

Original idea or did you hack/scab it from Lifehacker.com

I think I made it up but it is possible someone else is as smart as me and thought it up too. Unlikely, but possible.

As a possible narcissist I really don't care.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Morality just is, like gravity.

Without God, morality does not exist outside of human construct.  Show me morality in the matter and energy that makes up your brain.  It is an illusion.

1 hour ago, Gray said:

...and it has nothing to do with random chemical reactions.

It has everything to do with random chemical reactions.  If the universe is random, and you are a part of the universe... you get my point.  Our very existence is random and we are nothing more than random matter and energy bouncing off of other random matter and energy.  All of these reactions produce illusions of "self" and "agency". 

Quote

Because if you look at what a body and a brain are, there's no room for a thing called a 'self'

Scientists are even doing studies to suggest that agency may be an illusion.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/free-will-could-all-be-an-illusion-scientists-suggest-after-study-that-shows-choice-could-just-be-a7008181.html

[theplains]

On 12/12/2016 at 4:02 PM, canard78 said:

I heard something recently about religion that caught my thoughts:

An illustration of this is simply illustrated with this Book of Mormon teaching that creates both the problem and the solution in a single verse:

So, what would you respond to the proposal that religion offers you salvation to a problem that didn't exist until religion created it?

Religion didn't create the problem. According to a June 1982 Ensign article, Heavenly Father, with the help
of Satan, created it.

"God himself, the Father of us all, ordained and established a plan of salvation whereby his spirit children
might advance and progress and become like him."

In simple terms, God ordained Adam and Eve to disobey Him.

Thanks,
Jim

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, theplains said:

Religion didn't create the problem. According to a June 1982 Ensign article, Heavenly Father, with the help
of Satan, created it.

"God himself, the Father of us all, ordained and established a plan of salvation whereby his spirit children
might advance and progress and become like him."

In simple terms, God ordained Adam and Eve to disobey Him.

Thanks,
Jim

I want to use this for my own mistakes.

[Thinking]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

 Self-awareness and a bit of self-reflection.

Being self-aware of one's weaknesses and reflecting on how to improve does not necessarily lead to a belief in a "lost" state.

[Thinking]

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

In fact, anyone who joins a 12 step program needs to understand that exact point.  Anyone who is out of control with their feelings fits the bill

Do atheists abstain from 12 step programs for anti-religious reasons?

Yep you definitely need to visit LA's skid row.  Blocks and blocks of tents and cardboard boxes and naked people, in many cases literally.  All you need in LA weather is a good sleeping bag and some food from a passerby.

It's great stuff.  Maybe they don't need God according to you, but are they fallen beings in need of salvation?  I think that is indisputable.

That is exactly what the Salvation Army does and what we should be doing if we were actually believers in Christ.  Do you see me down there?  Nope.  I am just as guilty of the blood and sins of this generation as anyone.

As part of society, are you doing more?  Should you be doing more?   Do you feel bad about not doing more?   What does that have to do with religion?  that was Waveslider's point I think, eloquently stated in music

There is a difference between temporal salvation (feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, education, etc.) and the kind of post-mortal salvation that religion claims to be able to deliver.

[mfbukowski]

37 minutes ago, Thinking said:

There is a difference between temporal salvation (feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, education, etc.) and the kind of post-mortal salvation that religion claims to be able to deliver.

Gosh I never thought of that.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

Being self-aware of one's weaknesses and reflecting on how to improve does not necessarily lead to a belief in a "lost" state.

It does if you try to live the moral law you feel you should because you will continually fail.

[cdowis]

On 12/12/2016 at 4:02 PM, canard78 said:

So, what would you respond to the proposal that religion offers you salvation to a problem that didn't exist until religion created it?

This was taught by Korihor, the antiChrist

Alma 30  16 Ye look forward and say that ye see a remission of your sins. But behold, it is the effect of a ^afrenzied mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so.

 17 And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man ^afared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and ^bwhatsoever a man did was ^cno crime.

[cdowis]

8 hours ago, pogi said:

Scientists are even doing studies to suggest that agency may be an illusion.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/free-will-could-all-be-an-illusion-scientists-suggest-after-study-that-shows-choice-could-just-be-a7008181.html

Sorry, but the study shows no such thing.  It merely  proves that we are not so smart as we think we are AND that ideology often is used as a shortcut to our decision making because  our memory of past events are not always accurate.

We can ALLOW our agency to be taken away from us.

Edited December 14, 2016 by cdowis

[pogi]

7 hours ago, cdowis said:

Sorry, but the study shows no such thing.  It merely  proves that we are not so smart as we think we are AND that ideology often is used as a shortcut to our decision making because  our memory of past events are not always accurate.

We can ALLOW our agency to be taken away from us.

I'm not the one making the claim.  That is the conclusion of the neuroscientists who performed the study.  The fact is, if you remove God from the picture, they are right - free-will is nothing more than an illusion.  The concepts of "self" itself is an illusion.  There is no way around it.  

Edited December 14, 2016 by pogi

[Gray]

15 hours ago, pogi said:

Without God, morality does not exist outside of human construct.  Show me morality in the matter and energy that makes up your brain.  It is an illusion.

"Human construct" and "illusion" are not synonymous. But again, under Mormonism, you don't need God to get morality. Morality exists separately from and above God. 

 

Quote

It has everything to do with random chemical reactions.  If the universe is random, and you are a part of the universe... you get my point. 

 

We are certainly not random. The things we find to be moral are not randomly picked out of a hat, either. But again, under Mormonism, the same evolutionary processes (a mix of random and non-random factors) that produced us also produced the person who would eventually become our God. 

 

Quote

Our very existence is random and we are nothing more than random matter and energy bouncing off of other random matter and energy.  All of these reactions produce illusions of "self" and "agency". 

Scientists are even doing studies to suggest that agency may be an illusion.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/free-will-could-all-be-an-illusion-scientists-suggest-after-study-that-shows-choice-could-just-be-a7008181.html

An interesting field of exploration, but again, we're not random, and meaning does not need to be objective to be important or even critical. 

Edited December 14, 2016 by Gray

[Gray]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

I'm not the one making the claim.  That is the conclusion of the neuroscientists who performed the study.  The fact is, if you remove God from the picture, they are right - free-will is nothing more than an illusion.  The concepts of "self" itself is an illusion.  There is no way around it.  

What does God have to do with it? It is what it is regardless. 

[cdowis]

31 minutes ago, pogi said:

I'm not the one making the claim.  That is the conclusion of the neuroscientists who performed the study.  The fact is, if you remove God from the picture, they are right - free-will is nothing more than an illusion.  The concepts of "self" itself is an illusion.  There is no way around it.  

If you remove God, then there is no "self".  We simply would not exist.

That's like saying, "If you remove DNA from humans, there would be no genetic defects".  The statement is true, but it just doesn't make sense.

Edited December 14, 2016 by cdowis

[Gray]

5 minutes ago, cdowis said:

If you remove God, then there is no "self".  We simply would not exist.

That's like saying, "If you remove DNA from humans, there would be no genetic defects".  The statement is true, but it just doesn't make sense.

Under traditional Christianity, maybe. In Mormonism, we always existed. We don't need a creator to exist. 

[cdowis]

11 minutes ago, Gray said:

We don't need a creator to exist. 

We disagree, but that is another topic.  But the point is whether the assertion " The concepts of 'self' itself is an illusion.  There is no way around it" is correct.  Selfness is intertwined with God, as is DNA is intertwined and that is the "way around it."

Edited December 14, 2016 by cdowis

[canard78]

14 hours ago, theplains said:

Religion didn't create the problem. According to a June 1982 Ensign article, Heavenly Father, with the help
of Satan, created it.

"God himself, the Father of us all, ordained and established a plan of salvation whereby his spirit children
might advance and progress and become like him."

In simple terms, God ordained Adam and Eve to disobey Him.

Thanks,
Jim

I know you obviously believe that, but your perspective on who or what god is was filtered through the ideas and perspectives of other humans (either the words of others or your own feeling).

What you credit to God (with Satan's "help") is exactly the point I'm making. Your religion and its leaders are the source of the articulation of what that god considers a problem and the same source of the solution. 

[canard78]

8 hours ago, cdowis said:

This was taught by Korihor, the antiChrist

Alma 30  16 Ye look forward and say that ye see a remission of your sins. But behold, it is the effect of a ^afrenzied mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so.

 17 And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man ^afared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and ^bwhatsoever a man did was ^cno crime.

I think Korihor makes some very good points. 

I think it's very accurate to say that the vast majority of religious belief "comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so."

[Gray]

46 minutes ago, cdowis said:

We disagree, but that is another topic.  But the point is whether the assertion " The concepts of 'self' itself is an illusion.  There is no way around it" is correct.  Selfness is intertwined with God, as is DNA is intertwined and that is the "way around it."

D&C 93:29

 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

[Gray]

10 minutes ago, canard78 said:

I think Korihor makes some very good points. 

I think it's very accurate to say that the vast majority of religious belief "comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so."

I was just reading an interesting post about Korihor. The author thinks the character of Korihor may have been based on Abner Kneeland, a controversial atheist who was widely discussed around the time BOM was being dictated. 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2013/08/korihor-an-anachronistic-exemplum-of-atheism-and-infidelity/ 

 

Quote

"Prophecies have long since ceased; miracles are no longer performed; and we have nothing but historical evidence that either the one or the other ever took place. All the pretended prophecies, which have any thing like the appearance of a fulfilment, might have been written long after the facts predicted had taken place, for aught we know, or for aught that appears to the contrary; and the miracles recorded in the Bible, stand on the same evidence, though not so well attested, as some, at least, out of the many miracles mentioned in fabulous history." - Abner Kneeland

 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

What does God have to do with it? It is what it is regardless. 

That is true, but I am not trying to say what "it is". 

I am trying to illustrate my point by comparing two different theories - that of a Godless universe and that of religion (Mormonism specifically).  I am not arguing for one or the other here, I am simply trying to show that in the theory of a Godless universe the concept of "self" and "agency" are illusions (not my words).  It may "feel" like it has "meaning", and to you it is subjectively "real", but those feelings and meaning are simply illusion - neurophysiology.  There is nothing more to it than that - so enjoy the grand illusion while you still can, but in the grand scheme of things, it is all arbitrary to the universe, which you are apart of.  You can't escape the universe, you have no more meaning than the universe which you are a part of, you have no more morality than the universe, etc.  The sun will eventually desiccate the Earth, and things will continue as they always have, void of "self" and "free-will" and "meaning". 

So, my point is, to bring it all back to the OP, you can't blame religion for creating "arbitrary" morals.  Religion (God rather) is what gives a non-illusory morality and meaning to the universe.  It gives you, you.  Without God, any theoretical existence is truly arbitrary.

   

Edited December 14, 2016 by pogi

[pogi]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

If you remove God, then there is no "self".  We simply would not exist.

That's like saying, "If you remove DNA from humans, there would be no genetic defects".  The statement is true, but it just doesn't make sense.

I'm on your side here bro.  I am simply illustrating the perspective of others who believe in an existence without God.

Edited December 14, 2016 by pogi

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Under traditional Christianity, maybe. In Mormonism, we always existed. We don't need a creator to exist. 

Re: Needing a creator, yes and no.  We have always existed in some form, that's true, but someone or something needed to organize (i.e., to create) whatever pre-existed intelligences (perhaps the undifferentiated "pool" of intelligence: light and truth) from that pre-existing state into those intelligences, and someone or something needed, in turn, to organize (i.e., to create) those pre-existing intelligences from spirits, and someone or some thing needed, in turn, to organize (i.e., to create) intelligences into souls with physical bodies ("The spirit and the body are the soul of man").  And of course, the process will continue indefinitely hereafter, as we are "re-created"  from lesser glorified beings into progressively more glorified beings.  My $0.02.  Your mileage may vary.  

Edited December 14, 2016 by Kenngo1969