Luman Walters - Golden Plates influencer?

[HappyJackWagon]

Interesting stuff, guys. I've got nothing to add but I was curious about the value of $3 in 1820 since Luman was paid $3 per day. $1 = $17.75 (approximately) which would work out to $53 per day. It's not a very substantial daily wage for someone who comes from family money, but it would be a bit more substantial for a poor farmer. Maybe that's why they split the cost.

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, mapman said:

I was just a lowly intern, so I don't know that I'm really qualified to say much on this topic. I will say that all the people I personally worked with were definitely committed to transparency and we discussed the need to be completely transparent multiple times. Anything published by the Joseph Smith Papers is reviewed by apostles who sometimes ask for things to be stated differently, but I haven't heard of them being asked not to talk about something at all. I didn't have any personal experience dealing with the church leaders, so I don't really know what that's like. As far as I know, the people running the JSPP have been pleased with their work so far and feel like the leaders of the church are committed to transparency as well.

Cool, thats good to hear, sounds like great experience.  

[hope_for_things]

20 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Interesting stuff, guys. I've got nothing to add but I was curious about the value of $3 in 1820 since Luman was paid $3 per day. $1 = $17.75 (approximately) which would work out to $53 per day. It's not a very substantial daily wage for someone who comes from family money, but it would be a bit more substantial for a poor farmer. Maybe that's why they split the cost.

In Natural Born Seer Van Wagoner mentions that during the construction of the Erie Canal that the average wage at that time for a worker was $8 -$12 per month.  Also, if I remember right when helping Josiah Stowel Joseph Smith Jr. made $14 for one months wages.  So by your math that $3 per day was a pretty hefty fee.  I hadn't thought of that at the time, but perhaps Luman could command an above average wage for his services.   

[hope_for_things]

On 12/14/2016 at 11:53 AM, mfbukowski said:

Very interesting stuff- perhaps Walters helped in the materialization of the plates.  See this article by Ann Taves

http://www.religion.ucsb.edu/wp-content/uploads/B-6-Golden-Plates-Numen.pdf

I think this is definitely one possible scenario.

A Catholic priest is able to take a piece of bread and turn it into the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ- the transformation of plates would be small potatoes.

Sometimes angels have bodies.  And who was the angel on the banks of the Susquehanna ?

That's a freebie.   I have no interest in writing on that.

I really like that essay from Ann Taves, its a really interesting possibility.  I'm not through the whole seer stone section of this book by Van Wagoner, but I just finished the Josiah Stowel section and the trial in 1826.  I love the layout of the timeline in this book which is so well written and is very readable.    My impression at this point is that Joseph Smith Jr. was going through a struggle, trying to determine what he wanted to do with his life.  Does he continue the treasure digging fantasy/deception or does he pivot towards religion.  

Taves talks about how Joseph may have produced actual plates as an offering of sorts to God, creating something tangible to represent the spiritual vision that Joseph was having.  I tend to think that Joseph likely did create something tangible that represented his vision of plates.  I wonder if his vision of plates didn't evolve significantly from early on, first as a golden buried treasure, to later a sacred religious object.  

This evolution was influenced by many experiences over four years during a time of his life from 17 - 21 where he lost his oldest brother, nearly lost their home, was tried in court for his treasure digging, fell in love and got married, was scolded by his father-in-law and promised to stop treasure digging, and all of this over these four very formative years of his life.  

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I really like that essay from Ann Taves, its a really interesting possibility.  I'm not through the whole seer stone section of this book by Van Wagoner, but I just finished the Josiah Stowel section and the trial in 1826.  I love the layout of the timeline in this book which is so well written and is very readable.    My impression at this point is that Joseph Smith Jr. was going through a struggle, trying to determine what he wanted to do with his life.  Does he continue the treasure digging fantasy/deception or does he pivot towards religion.  

Taves talks about how Joseph may have produced actual plates as an offering of sorts to God, creating something tangible to represent the spiritual vision that Joseph was having.  I tend to think that Joseph likely did create something tangible that represented his vision of plates.  I wonder if his vision of plates didn't evolve significantly from early on, first as a golden buried treasure, to later a sacred religious object.  

This evolution was influenced by many experiences over four years during a time of his life from 17 - 21 where he lost his oldest brother, nearly lost their home, was tried in court for his treasure digging, fell in love and got married, was scolded by his father-in-law and promised to stop treasure digging, and all of this over these four very formative years of his life.  

I am not well informed about this Walters history but it opens up tons of possibilities.  Perhaps had the dreams from Moroni.  Perhaps he mentioned them to Walters.  Perhaps Walters used his digs on the hill to make and plant the plates, or perhaps Joseph did not know about it- perhaps he did.  

Catholics really do believe in the transubstantiation of the host- there is no reason to believe that Joseph did not believe in something like the "transubstantiation" of the plates.

You are what you believe- that is why what we call "the placebo effect" works.  A sugar pill can actually cure you- and it can be scientifically verified that that was the cause.

If you believe you will be cured, you will be.  If you honestly believe that God will give you plates, you are not unlike a Catholic priest who could theoretically make bread himself and then transubstantiate it and then take it himself as the Eucharist it total belief that it had become the body of Christ.   Millions across the globe believe that happens ever single day thousands of times.   The true sacrifice made by Jesus himself is repeated thousands of times every day of the year.   Perhaps the number of believers is in the billions.

What is the difference between a priest making bread and then consecrating it and believing that it WAS the body of Christ and Joseph making the plates and then transforming them into an ancient book of scripture?

And them translating them through pure revelation, because he already knew that this was the work of the Lord and what was on the plates was irrelevant to the "translation" because he was receiving the words directly from the Lord?

Any stone or prop he believed would facilitate the translation would do so just as any sugar pill can cure someone- REALLY cure someone in a measurable way!

Someone might say that it was different because the person receiving the placebo does not know that it is "fake".   Does the priest know it is "fake"?  No, for the priest, the process is as real as can be.  Modern neuroscience calls it "the placebo effect" because it cannot bear to call it "faith healing" but that is exactly what it is!  No difference!  IF Joseph truly had a testimony that what he was doing was from God- it was.  To belittle it and say "It was real for HIM" is to belittle and minimize the great spiritual power of the church in the world today.

The power of the mind is incredible- or one could say that the power of God is incredible, or the power of belief is incredible and perhaps all those sentences mean the same thing.

If there was a confederate somewhere in the mix with Joseph who was perhaps half veiled in identity, or manipulating the situation, or simply appearing as an "angel" to Joseph, or just in on the idea, it is easy to imagine the "angel" putting the plates in that hill where he knew Joseph was digging.   Remember there were YEARS between the announcement that Joseph would receive the plates, to him actually receiving them.   Who was doing what in all that time?

We will never know.

For me as a philosopher this is all irrelevant.   I look at the religious views of Swedenborg and do not care where they came from.   I look at the religious views of CS Lewis or any theologian and don't care about where they came from.   I look at Plato or Aristotle or Aquinas or any of them and have no care in the world what their personal lives were like or where their theories came from.   I judge their theories based on their contents, nothing more, nothing less.

I am certainly just as content to do the same with Joseph, and besides that, God has not told me through my own personal revelations that those others ideas are "true".

That is a different story with Joseph.   I have had numerous spiritual experiences "verifying" that God wants me on this path, and here I am.   I have never seen a sweeter philosophy in my life.

Edited December 16, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Interesting stuff, guys. I've got nothing to add but I was curious about the value of $3 in 1820 since Luman was paid $3 per day. $1 = $17.75 (approximately) which would work out to $53 per day. It's not a very substantial daily wage for someone who comes from family money, but it would be a bit more substantial for a poor farmer. Maybe that's why they split the cost.

I think that was a huge amount of money.  

I have not researched it extensively but this site shows that in 1860- 40 years later than 1820, obviously, the hourly wage for a blacksmith- a skilled tradesman like perhaps a plumber today - was 17.8 CENTS per hour, for a daily wage for an 8 hour day being $1.42.  So Luman's wage, 40 years earlier, was twice what a skilled tradesman would have gotten 40 years later

https://outrunchange.com/2012/06/14/typical-wages-in-1860-through-1890/

In 1816 the average wage for a textile worker was 50 CENTS a day- see page 476 of this pdf

http://www.nber.org/chapters/c2486.pdf

and

Quote

An early nineteenth century estimate is one made in February 1816 by Representative Newton of the Committee on Manufactures.75 Newton estimated that earnings in cotton manufacturing ran to $150 a year.

THAT is inflation.   I know that my parents' rent for a two bedroom apartment in an Eastern city was $30 per month in the earlier 1950's.

In the 60's gasoline was 25 cents per gallon.   A brand new Chevy station wagon - deluxe model- was $3000. off the showroom floor- I know that because that is what my parents paid for their brand new car in 1960

I can tell you for a fact that the salary of a new lawyer starting with a very solid law firm in 1973 was $15,000. per year, and that felt like what over $100,000. per year would feel like today, these are just facts I know from my life.

So I think that $3. per day for that kind of work was a truly exorbitant sum.

Another interesting site recording the costs of building a house in 1820:

http://www.stephensonhouse.org/EstateProbate.asp

Quote

As might be expected the accounts dealing with the construction of the Stephenson house were among the largest. The bills included 6732 feet of lumber purchased from Abraham Prickett for $117.98; the lumber purchase included almost all of the wood used in the construction. Construction also required large quantities of nails; eight purchases of nails at J. R. Pogue’s store totaled 164.5 pounds and cost $45.37. Three hundred palings (pickets) and railings for a picket fence were purchased from Abraham Prickett for $18.37. Locks and hinges totaled $4.25 and laths for the interior walls were purchased from Isaac Prickett’s store for $23.89. Labor costs included payments to Robert Page, J. Gordon, and William Cummins and totaled $54.87 ½ .Daniel Tolman, a local craftsman, was paid $17.50 for making the rose blocks used on the window trim, the newel posts and banisters for the stairway, and all the decorative elements of the fireplace mantles. Another local craftsman, William Cummins, was paid $25.75 for building the chimney and hearth and for providing and hauling the bricks. Minor expenses included the purchase of several lots of small triangular pieces of tin, called spriggs, used to secure window glass in the window frames, and 6 pieces of “glass paper”, or glassine, which probably served as temporary windows or were used in the kitchen windows. The cost of glass paper and spriggs totaled about $11.00.
The other major construction expense was associated with making the brick for the house. Clearing the ground and constructing a shed for drying the brick and housing the kiln cost $32.49. Two quarts of Whiskey for the hands who put up the shed cost 50 cents.. Eight loads of sand, 4 ½ days of labor digging clay, and labor for eighteen days of cutting and hauling wood to fire the kiln, totaled $40.50; five wooden brick molds made by Daniel Tolman cost $8.50.

 

[hope_for_things]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I am not well informed about this Walters history but it opens up tons of possibilities.  Perhaps had the dreams from Moroni.  Perhaps he mentioned them to Walters.  Perhaps Walters used his digs on the hill to make and plant the plates, or perhaps Joseph did not know about it- perhaps he did.

Yes, good points, this is very interesting to me as well because of the possibilities that it suggests.  

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Catholics really do believe in the transubstantiation of the host- there is no reason to believe that Joseph did not believe in something like the "transubstantiation" of the plates.

You are what you believe- that is why what we call "the placebo effect" works.  A sugar pill can actually cure you- and it can be scientifically verified that that was the cause.

If you believe you will be cured, you will be.  If you honestly believe that God will give you plates, you are not unlike a Catholic priest who could theoretically make bread himself and then transubstantiate it and then take it himself as the Eucharist it total belief that it had become the body of Christ.   Millions across the globe believe that happens ever single day thousands of times.   The true sacrifice made by Jesus himself is repeated thousands of times every day of the year.   Perhaps the number of believers is in the billions.

The placebo effect, interesting comparison.  Placebo can have an effect, its not guaranteed though, doesn't work 100% of the time for 100% of the people, and its hard to quantify.  So I think you're taking this a little far to suggest that someone can believe they will be cured and they will be cured.  I do agree with you about the transubstantiation comparison that Taves uses, I think its a good comparison and I believe it works well on some levels. 

15 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What is the difference between a priest making bread and then consecrating it and believing that it WAS the body of Christ and Joseph making the plates and then transforming them into an ancient book of scripture?

And them translating them through pure revelation, because he already knew that this was the work of the Lord and what was on the plates was irrelevant to the "translation" because he was receiving the words directly from the Lord?

There are differences in the comparisons.  In the Eucharist comparison, the religious individual is personally experiencing Christ through partaking of the bread and wine and interacting with Jesus through that personal experience.  The person does not take the bread to a scholar and ask that scholar to validate that the bread was actually the body of Christ. The person also does not claim that this bread can be proven through tangible evidence corroborated by witnesses who sign a statement that they have touched this bread and can literally testify that this bread is the body of Christ.  

In Joseph's example he's not only creating golden plates as a personal and individual representation of an ancient record that he received, but he's taken the personal transcendent experience and claiming that scholars and other individuals are verifying its authenticity using secular and tangible evidence.  He's taking a religious object and trying to place it on a scientific and secular plane.  As you've explained to me in the past, these two worlds don't mix and use entirely different tools and methods.  I think this is where the comparison is limited and doesn't exactly work.  

15 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

If there was a confederate somewhere in the mix with Joseph who was perhaps half veiled in identity, or manipulating the situation, or simply appearing as an "angel" to Joseph, or just in on the idea, it is easy to imagine the "angel" putting the plates in that hill where he knew Joseph was digging.   Remember there were YEARS between the announcement that Joseph would receive the plates, to him actually receiving them.   Who was doing what in all that time?

Interesting, I hadn't considered that possibility, but perhaps Walters created the plates and placed them where he suspected Joseph would discover them? 

[mfbukowski]

37 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Yes, good points, this is very interesting to me as well because of the possibilities that it suggests.  

The placebo effect, interesting comparison.  Placebo can have an effect, its not guaranteed though, doesn't work 100% of the time for 100% of the people, and its hard to quantify.  So I think you're taking this a little far to suggest that someone can believe they will be cured and they will be cured.  I do agree with you about the transubstantiation comparison that Taves uses, I think its a good comparison and I believe it works well on some levels.

I didn't say  or mean that it works in all cases- part of the equation is that the believer has to have total confidence that it will work.  It certainly works for most Catholics I think, or at least they tend to behave as if it works. Their reverence around the Eucharist is quite impressive, including genuflecting in its presence, etc.  I think that has been watered down since Vatican ll.  What I was saying is literally what I said- that SOMEONE- not everyone- can believe and be cured

We similarly consecrate oil and consecrate temples.   I once got into a argument on this board in a discussion about emergency preparedness.  I was saying that if one carried a vial of consecrated oil, one could also use it in an emergency to start a fire if necessary- and I got a ton of objections to the idea that one would use consecrated oil for such a mundane purpose as saving your life in an emergency!  The idea is strong that objects can be consecrated to the Lord and doing so makes them different than they were before by saying a few words over them, even for us.

Quote

 

There are differences in the comparisons.  In the Eucharist comparison, the religious individual is personally experiencing Christ through partaking of the bread and wine and interacting with Jesus through that personal experience.  The person does not take the bread to a scholar and ask that scholar to validate that the bread was actually the body of Christ. The person also does not claim that this bread can be proven through tangible evidence corroborated by witnesses who sign a statement that they have touched this bread and can literally testify that this bread is the body of Christ.  

 

Not sure about this one.  I don't see it applies at all.  Joseph did not take the plates to a scholar- Martin Harris took a reproduction of a few "charactors" to a charlatan professor.  That was Martin Harris' way of understanding the plates- not Joseph's nor any of Joseph's other.   And the witnesses simply testified to the existence of the plates- not the spirituality of their content.  They did not testify that they were the word of God or even that they were of ancient origin.  No scholar ever saw the plates.

To carry that to your analogy, it would be like asking a scholar to verify that the Eucharist was "really bread".  It IS bread in one perspective and the body of the savior in another perspective.  No Catholic disputes that the "APPEARANCE" of the bread changes- it is the "Substance" which changes- nothing visible.  So there would be no point for a Catholic to take a host for analysis- the doctrine itself already accounts for the fact that the appearance of bread is still there.  No Mormon would take consecrated oil to have it analyzed to see if it was "really consecrated" either.  No Mormon would expect to see God sitting in his chair in the temple, unless perhaps a child.

Quote

In Joseph's example he's not only creating golden plates as a personal and individual representation of an ancient record that he received, but he's taken the personal transcendent experience and claiming that scholars and other individuals are verifying its authenticity using secular and tangible evidence.  He's taking a religious object and trying to place it on a scientific and secular plane.

When did that happen?  Are you talking about the Book of Abraham?  No one asked a scholar if the BOA was "scripture" which WOULD be what you suggest- asking a scholar for the evidence that the papyrus was the word of God.   I think that is a false analogy.

Quote

As you've explained to me in the past, these two worlds don't mix and use entirely different tools and methods.  I think this is where the comparison is limited and doesn't exactly work.

Yeah, but I think your analogy doesn't work 

Quote

Interesting, I hadn't considered that possibility, but perhaps Walters created the plates and placed them where he suspected Joseph would discover them? 

I know I suggested this, but thinking about it- why would Walters do that?  What would be the motivation?  That would give Joseph the "glory" and Walters would go unnoticed.

But something like that might have happened- it's anybody's guess I think.   But I do believe there was an embodied "angel" on the banks of the Susquehanna- but again, if it was a confederate, what would be "in it for him"?  What was that individual's motivation?

[Benjamin Seeker]

And why would Walter then try so hard to get them back?

Btw, if you didn't see it in the the BOM thread that  was so intense for the past month, there is a mountain of connections between the BOM, Book of Moses, and a Masonic legend about Enoch and a gold plate. The connections are strong enough that both faithful and completely secular scholars have proposed that JS was familiar with the legend and then either used it to create the narrative, or more benignly, that the legend shaped how he and contemporaries shared his experiences.

All that is to lead up to a specific connection. The legend has Enoch seeing the gold plate in vision and then being commanded to make the plate. As there is good evidence that the Enoch legend influenced the coming forth of the BOM, then seeing plates and being commanded to create them is a potentially strong precedent. Also, if we consider some of the JS-biographical bits apparent in the BOM text, then all of the prophets commanded to make records/plates potentially corroborate this idea.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Benjamin Seeker

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

And why would Walter then try so hard to get them back?

Btw, if you didn't see it in the the BOM thread that  was so intense for the past month, there is a mountain of connections between the BOM, Book of Moses, and a Masonic legend about Enoch and a gold plate. The connections are strong enough that both faithful and completely secular scholars have proposed that JS was familiar with the legend and then either used it to create the narrative, or more benignly, that the legend shaped how he and contemporaries shared his experiences.

All that is to lead up to a specific connection. The legend has Enoch seeing the gold plate in vision and then being commanded to make the plate. As there is good evidence that the Enoch legend influenced the coming forth of the BOM, then seeing plates and being commanded to create them is a potentially strong precedent. Also, if we consider some of the JS-biographical bits apparent in the BOM text, then all of the prophets commanded to make records/plates potentially corroborate this idea.

But of course the plates did disappear?  No, I did not see that.  Thanks, will check it out.  I am usually so busy in my own conversations that I do not read the full thread.

That's an amazing idea. Could you send me a link to the beginning of that conversation- it is probably hard to dig up....

Edited December 17, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Rajah Manchou]

7 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Btw, if you didn't see it in the the BOM thread that  was so intense for the past month, there is a mountain of connections between the BOM, Book of Moses, and a Masonic legend about Enoch and a gold plate. The connections are strong enough that both faithful and completely secular scholars have proposed that JS was familiar with the legend and then either used it to create the narrative, or more benignly, that the legend shaped how he and contemporaries shared his experiences.

All that is to lead up to a specific connection. The legend has Enoch seeing the gold plate in vision and then being commanded to make the plate. As there is good evidence that the Enoch legend influenced the coming forth of the BOM, then seeing plates and being commanded to create them is a potentially strong precedent. Also, if we consider some of the JS-biographical bits apparent in the BOM text, then all of the prophets commanded to make records/plates potentially corroborate this idea.

Although I have no way to know this, I suspect Luman Walter was familiar with the respected Egyptologist named Silvestre de Sacy who was teaching in Paris during the time Luman was pursuing his "scientific education" there. De Sacy was familiar with many Semitic languages and was the mentor/teacher of Champollion, who would go on to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphs. 

De Sacy was also a member of the masonic Scottish Mother Lodge, where he influenced a unique brand of freemasonry that drew from several Druze religious texts that he had translated. I won't exhaust with details here, but some of these oriental accounts do bear a resemblance to the Book of Mormon. 

But here's the kicker, de Sacy was also the first to translate portions of the Book of Enoch into Latin.

My hypothesis, without much evidence yet to back it up, is that the Book of Mormon is related to authentic oriental texts (Druze, Karaite, Pahlavi etc.) that were influencing Parisian masonry. While studying the occult in Paris, Luman Walters came across these ideas and texts, including de Sacy's Latin translations of the Book of Enoch. Luman returned to New York in 1818 with his Latin grimoire and, according to one account, was the first to visit the Hill Cumorah to retrieve the treasure. He went to Cumorah three times and failing to get the treasure, announced that only Joseph Smith could succeed at finding it.

Its possible that Joseph Smith really did collect the Golden Plates from the Hill Cumorah, after they were placed there by a mysterious character seen around Palmyra named "Moroni". I suspect Luman Walters was related in some way to this wandering Moroni.

[mapman]

 

5 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Although I have no way to know this, I suspect Luman Walter was familiar with the respected Egyptologist named Silvestre de Sacy who was teaching in Paris during the time Luman was pursuing his "scientific education" there. De Sacy was familiar with many Semitic languages and was the mentor/teacher of Champollion, who would go on to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphs. 

De Sacy was also a member of the masonic Scottish Mother Lodge, where he influenced a unique brand of freemasonry that drew from several Druze religious texts that he had translated. I won't exhaust with details here, but some of these oriental accounts do bear a resemblance to the Book of Mormon. 

But here's the kicker, de Sacy was also the first to translate portions of the Book of Enoch into Latin.

My hypothesis, without much evidence yet to back it up, is that the Book of Mormon is related to authentic oriental texts (Druze, Karaite, Pahlavi etc.) that were influencing Parisian masonry. While studying the occult in Paris, Luman Walters came across these ideas and texts, including de Sacy's Latin translations of the Book of Enoch. Luman returned to New York in 1818 with his Latin grimoire and, according to one account, was the first to visit the Hill Cumorah to retrieve the treasure. He went to Cumorah three times and failing to get the treasure, announced that only Joseph Smith could succeed at finding it.

Its possible that Joseph Smith really did collect the Golden Plates from the Hill Cumorah, after they were placed there by a mysterious character seen around Palmyra named "Moroni". I suspect Luman Walters was related in some way to this wandering Moroni.

I feel like many people on this thread are going further than the evidence can really take us. There are a lot of interesting ideas, but it isn't good scholarship to talk about what could be possible if there aren't any historical sources to actually support the theories. From my point of view, the historical sources can only tell us that Joseph Smith claimed to have been led to an actual ancient record from an angel named Moroni, and that other people said that Walters and other treasure diggers had been searching for buried gold in the area, and that some people thought Joseph Smith got the idea of finding an ancient gold book from Walters. Theories about Joseph Smith manufacturing the plates, or that Walters had any interest in ancient scriptures really have no evidence. 

Various people said that Walters had gone to Europe, and that might be the case. He probably claimed as much to bolster his image of having access to occult power, but we should keep in mind that no one has ever found any evidence other than these claims that he ever left the US. It is going way beyond the evidence to suggest he had any interest in Egyptology or met with a specific Egyptologist, even if he ever did go to Paris. From what I've seen from the historical sources, it seems to me that him looking into Egyptian stuff or the Book of Enoch would be out of character for him, but who knows, maybe he had hidden depths.

Edited December 17, 2016 by mapman

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Although I have no way to know this, I suspect Luman Walter was familiar with the respected Egyptologist named Silvestre de Sacy who was teaching in Paris during the time Luman was pursuing his "scientific education" there. De Sacy was familiar with many Semitic languages and was the mentor/teacher of Champollion, who would go on to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphs. 

De Sacy was also a member of the masonic Scottish Mother Lodge, where he influenced a unique brand of freemasonry that drew from several Druze religious texts that he had translated. I won't exhaust with details here, but some of these oriental accounts do bear a resemblance to the Book of Mormon. 

But here's the kicker, de Sacy was also the first to translate portions of the Book of Enoch into Latin.

My hypothesis, without much evidence yet to back it up, is that the Book of Mormon is related to authentic oriental texts (Druze, Karaite, Pahlavi etc.) that were influencing Parisian masonry. While studying the occult in Paris, Luman Walters came across these ideas and texts, including de Sacy's Latin translations of the Book of Enoch. Luman returned to New York in 1818 with his Latin grimoire and, according to one account, was the first to visit the Hill Cumorah to retrieve the treasure. He went to Cumorah three times and failing to get the treasure, announced that only Joseph Smith could succeed at finding it.

Its possible that Joseph Smith really did collect the Golden Plates from the Hill Cumorah, after they were placed there by a mysterious character seen around Palmyra named "Moroni". I suspect Luman Walters was related in some way to this wandering Moroni.

This fits not only the history but the theology imo, taking Taves' views into account. There are third party accounts of other angelic visitations as well, from John the Baptist etc.  Moroni might also have been John.

[Tacenda]

On 12/15/2016 at 5:58 PM, mfbukowski said:

I am not well informed about this Walters history but it opens up tons of possibilities.  Perhaps had the dreams from Moroni.  Perhaps he mentioned them to Walters.  Perhaps Walters used his digs on the hill to make and plant the plates, or perhaps Joseph did not know about it- perhaps he did.  

Catholics really do believe in the transubstantiation of the host- there is no reason to believe that Joseph did not believe in something like the "transubstantiation" of the plates.

You are what you believe- that is why what we call "the placebo effect" works.  A sugar pill can actually cure you- and it can be scientifically verified that that was the cause.

If you believe you will be cured, you will be.  If you honestly believe that God will give you plates, you are not unlike a Catholic priest who could theoretically make bread himself and then transubstantiate it and then take it himself as the Eucharist it total belief that it had become the body of Christ.   Millions across the globe believe that happens ever single day thousands of times.   The true sacrifice made by Jesus himself is repeated thousands of times every day of the year.   Perhaps the number of believers is in the billions.

What is the difference between a priest making bread and then consecrating it and believing that it WAS the body of Christ and Joseph making the plates and then transforming them into an ancient book of scripture?

And them translating them through pure revelation, because he already knew that this was the work of the Lord and what was on the plates was irrelevant to the "translation" because he was receiving the words directly from the Lord?

Any stone or prop he believed would facilitate the translation would do so just as any sugar pill can cure someone- REALLY cure someone in a measurable way!

Someone might say that it was different because the person receiving the placebo does not know that it is "fake".   Does the priest know it is "fake"?  No, for the priest, the process is as real as can be.  Modern neuroscience calls it "the placebo effect" because it cannot bear to call it "faith healing" but that is exactly what it is!  No difference!  IF Joseph truly had a testimony that what he was doing was from God- it was.  To belittle it and say "It was real for HIM" is to belittle and minimize the great spiritual power of the church in the world today.

The power of the mind is incredible- or one could say that the power of God is incredible, or the power of belief is incredible and perhaps all those sentences mean the same thing.

If there was a confederate somewhere in the mix with Joseph who was perhaps half veiled in identity, or manipulating the situation, or simply appearing as an "angel" to Joseph, or just in on the idea, it is easy to imagine the "angel" putting the plates in that hill where he knew Joseph was digging.   Remember there were YEARS between the announcement that Joseph would receive the plates, to him actually receiving them.   Who was doing what in all that time?

We will never know.

For me as a philosopher this is all irrelevant.   I look at the religious views of Swedenborg and do not care where they came from.   I look at the religious views of CS Lewis or any theologian and don't care about where they came from.   I look at Plato or Aristotle or Aquinas or any of them and have no care in the world what their personal lives were like or where their theories came from.   I judge their theories based on their contents, nothing more, nothing less.

I am certainly just as content to do the same with Joseph, and besides that, God has not told me through my own personal revelations that those others ideas are "true".

That is a different story with Joseph.   I have had numerous spiritual experiences "verifying" that God wants me on this path, and here I am.   I have never seen a sweeter philosophy in my life.

Kudos to you!

And kudos for your honesty. I'm sure it's not easy to speak these things and not emphatically say the church is true for everyone, but that it is for you. Thanks! And I too see a lot in this church to cling to it. What an interesting religion we have, too bad a lot of members don't know the half of it. 

I struggle to believe in God/Jesus, let alone the church, So I go day by day and try to. Today I witnessed a video on FB that I wish were my own. Anyway, I wish I had the ability to really listen to the still small voice like the woman in the video did. Of course her still small voice wasn't the same as the LDS version I'm gathering, I believe she's of another faith. I wish I had that, it would be such a gift to have the Lord to converse with.

 

[strappinglad]

Much of this discussion runs high on the " perhapsitmaybecouldbe " scale. I eagerly await some yahoo announcing the discovery of the 116 pages in the attic of a farm house that once belonged to a cousin twice removed from Martin Harris' wife.

[The Nehor]

Joseph Smith appears to have been influenced by every event and personality in New England during his childhood.

[Rajah Manchou]

6 hours ago, mapman said:

I feel like many people on this thread are going further than the evidence can really take us. There are a lot of interesting ideas, but it isn't good scholarship to talk about what could be possible if there aren't any historical sources to actually support the theories. From my point of view, the historical sources can only tell us that Joseph Smith claimed to have been led to an actual ancient record from an angel named Moroni, and that other people said that Walters and other treasure diggers had been searching for buried gold in the area, and that some people thought Joseph Smith got the idea of finding an ancient gold book from Walters. Theories about Joseph Smith manufacturing the plates, or that Walters had any interest in ancient scriptures really have no evidence. 

What would the grimoire you mention be? The accounts of Luman reading unintelligible jargon from a Latin book? It seems that he had a text of some sort, and that this text was a part of his conjuring act. I've no idea if that book was ancient scripture, Cicero's Orations or a handbill from a French circus. But he had something, written in jargon, or another language as he and others searched for treasure in Palmyra, and the Hill Cumorah specifically.

6 hours ago, mapman said:

It is going way beyond the evidence to suggest he had any interest in Egyptology or met with a specific Egyptologist, even if he ever did go to Paris. From what I've seen from the historical sources, it seems to me that him looking into Egyptian stuff or the Book of Enoch would be out of character for him, but who knows, maybe he had hidden depths.

I don't expect that Walters, had he truly studied in Paris, would have met directly with someone like de Sacy. But it is probable that he would have known others who were familiar with de Sacy's popular writings and ideas on the relationship between oriental religious texts and freemasonry. Yes, it is speculation, but somehow we need to explain why we find many parallels between Enoch lore and literature and early Mormonism. The argument is always that Joseph, or anyone in America before 1823, could not have had access to the Book of Enoch. I don't believe that is true. If Walters was in Paris in 1818 as claimed, he would have been very close to the center of that conversation.

[Rajah Manchou]

3 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Much of this discussion runs high on the " perhapsitmaybecouldbe " scale. I eagerly await some yahoo announcing the discovery of the 116 pages in the attic of a farm house that once belonged to a cousin twice removed from Martin Harris' wife.

Or perhapsitmaybecouldbe that the story as Joseph gave it is the correct one.

For me its much higher on the "maybe scale" but who knows. I also eagerly away these discoveries.

[Benjamin Seeker]

13 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Although I have no way to know this, I suspect Luman Walter was familiar with the respected Egyptologist named Silvestre de Sacy who was teaching in Paris during the time Luman was pursuing his "scientific education" there. De Sacy was familiar with many Semitic languages and was the mentor/teacher of Champollion, who would go on to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphs. 

De Sacy was also a member of the masonic Scottish Mother Lodge, where he influenced a unique brand of freemasonry that drew from several Druze religious texts that he had translated. I won't exhaust with details here, but some of these oriental accounts do bear a resemblance to the Book of Mormon. 

But here's the kicker, de Sacy was also the first to translate portions of the Book of Enoch into Latin.

My hypothesis, without much evidence yet to back it up, is that the Book of Mormon is related to authentic oriental texts (Druze, Karaite, Pahlavi etc.) that were influencing Parisian masonry. While studying the occult in Paris, Luman Walters came across these ideas and texts, including de Sacy's Latin translations of the Book of Enoch. Luman returned to New York in 1818 with his Latin grimoire and, according to one account, was the first to visit the Hill Cumorah to retrieve the treasure. He went to Cumorah three times and failing to get the treasure, announced that only Joseph Smith could succeed at finding it.

Very speculative but fun ideas. I'd love to hear more about the similarities between the BOM and the oriental texts you referenced.

13 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Its possible that Joseph Smith really did collect the Golden Plates from the Hill Cumorah, after they were placed there by a mysterious character seen around Palmyra named "Moroni". I suspect Luman Walters was related in some way to this wandering Moroni.

It's in the realm of possibility, but I've always been impressed by the vision-like nature of Moroni. When one of the Whitmer sons sees him as a traveler walking along the road, he mysteriously disappears at the end of the encounter. Similarly, Mary Whitmer's encounter with Moroni also ended in his mysterious disappearance. Of course, JS accounts of Moroni all have vision-like qualities. Also, I'm unaware of any accounts of physical interaction of any kind with Moroni (not that that would be out of the realm of visionary experience, but it's notable nonetheless).

 

[Benjamin Seeker]

On Walter's Parisian education (from Wikipedia):

Quote

Walters was reportedly the "son of a rich man living on the Hudson". He had "received a scientific education" and studied in Paris. Alva Beaman's daughter recalled that "After he came home he lived like a misanthrope. He had come back an infidel, believing neither in man nor God."

So, we have a contemporary who witnessed Walter's leaving and returning from Paris, and noticing that the trip had changed him.

[Benjamin Seeker]

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

But of course the plates did disappear?  No, I did not see that.  Thanks, will check it out.  I am usually so busy in my own conversations that I do not read the full thread.

That's an amazing idea. Could you send me a link to the beginning of that conversation- it is probably hard to dig up....

Here is the beginning: 

also, somehow it started up again towards the end of the thread, and the very last post in the thread is mine and highly relevant.

[Benjamin Seeker]

9 hours ago, mapman said:

 

I feel like many people on this thread are going further than the evidence can really take us. There are a lot of interesting ideas, but it isn't good scholarship to talk about what could be possible if there aren't any historical sources to actually support the theories. From my point of view, the historical sources can only tell us that Joseph Smith claimed to have been led to an actual ancient record from an angel named Moroni, and that other people said that Walters and other treasure diggers had been searching for buried gold in the area, and that some people thought Joseph Smith got the idea of finding an ancient gold book from Walters. Theories about Joseph Smith manufacturing the plates, or that Walters had any interest in ancient scriptures really have no evidence. 

I agree that a lot of the conversation about Luman here is speculative. However, there is a decent case for the possibility that JS or someone made the plates.

1. JS and others had dug on the hill later called Cumorah many times and found nothing. They had also dug in lots of other places and hills in the area and found nothing. That JS suddenly had success locating a buried treasure suggests the possibility that it was something besides authentic buried treasure.
2. JS allowed people to handle the plates covered but no one could see them. It's possible that he believed God had commanded this unreasonable restriction because the plates didn't look authentic or at least didn't look like the golden plates JS described. I say unreasonable because there is no obvious reason for people to be able to handle but not to see the plates.
3. Josiah Stowell saw the corner of the plates uncovered as JS passed them to his mom through the window the night he brought them home. He described what he saw as a stone of greenish caste. This is incongruent with what the three witnesses saw in vision and what the eight witnesses described.
4. The eight witnesses possibly had a visionary experience. Lucy remembers that an "ancient nephite" delivered the plates to them in the grove where they saw them. John Whitmer said that a supernatural power caused the plates to be shown to him. Burnett reported that Martin Harris said that the every person who had ever seen the plates, including the eight witnesses and Joseph, had saw them in vision, and for that reason the 8 had been hesitant to sign the witness document but JS had persuaded them. D&C explains that it is only by God's power that the plates are shown to anyone. The above aspects suggest a vision-like experience, which would explain why the 8 describe a visually-convincing, physical artifact that is otherwise unattested, except by Mary Whitmer (see 5).
5. Mary Whitmer describes seeing an older gentlemen showing her the plates right as she was considering kicking JS to the curb (pretty impressive). The experience falls in the realm of vision as it abruptly ended with the mysterious disappearance of the man and plates.
6. Later, when JS had authentic artifacts that he believed contained writings of ancient prophets, he eagerly displayed the Egyptian papyri for visitors, etc. There is an obvious incongruency here. The best offered with the plates is to heft them or handle them under a handkerchief and then they disappear for good while the papyri are put on public display.
7. There are numerous connections between the Masonic legend of Enoch and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, so many that both faithful and completely secular scholars have acknowledged the validity of the connections. A significant part of the legend is Enoch's vision of the gold plate and subsequent manufacture of it. If the legend affected JS significantly enough to shape how he related his sacred experiences, there is a real possibility that this aspect of the legend inspired him as well.

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by Benjamin Seeker

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Here is the beginning: 

also, somehow it started up again towards the end of the thread, and the very last post in the thread is mine and highly relevant.

Thanks

[Rajah Manchou]

7 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Very speculative but fun ideas. I'd love to hear more about the similarities between the BOM and the oriental texts you referenced.

I'm working on these and can hopefully share something more organized down the road. But more relevant to this thread is the genre of historical satire inspired by de Sacy's translation work, just previous to the publication of the Book of Mormon. This is the preface to one of the more popular works in this genre, The Chaldee Manuscript:

"The present age seems destined to witness the recovery of many admirable pieces of writing, which had been supposed to be lost for ever. The Eruditi of Milan are not the only persons who have ta boast of being the instruments of these resuscitations. We have been favoured with the following translation of a Chaldee MS. which if preserved in the great Library of Paris (Salle 2d, No 53, B.A.M.M.), by a gentleman whose attainments in Oriental Learning are well known to the public. It is said that the celebrated Silvester De Sacy is at present occupied with a publication of the original. It will be prefaced by an Inquiry into the Age when it was written, and the name of the writer."

Here are a few more in the "Chaldee Manuscript" genre: 

• Chronicles of Charles the Young Man
• The Chronicle of the Kings of England
• Translation of an ancient Chaldee Manuscript, found near the Fish Ponds at Government House
• Chronicles of Eri; being the history of the Gaal Sciot Iber: or, the Irish people; translated from the original manuscripts in the Phoenician dialect of the Scythian language

Edited December 18, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[mapman]

15 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

On Walter's Parisian education (from Wikipedia):

So, we have a contemporary who witnessed Walter's leaving and returning from Paris, and noticing that the trip had changed him.

No, this is not correct. The source you are citing is from a journal entry from Elizabeth Kane in 1873 reporting what Artemisia Beaman Snow had told her. None of the Beamans knew Walters until after he had moved to the Palmyra area. We know that Walters was in the US in 1818 from the incident where he escaped jail, and he moved to Palmyra in the early 1820s, so Artemisia was just passing along what she had heard about his travels that had allegedly happened several years earlier (other sources show that the story going around was that he left when he was a minor, so that would have been the late 1790s/early 1800s). I'm not going to say that he didn't go to Europe, but we should be reasonably skeptical about these stories without good evidence for them.

I'm not inclined to put much confidence in the accuracy of the details mentioned in this source because of its being second-hand report of things that had happened decades earlier, and since things like it saying that he was "son of a rich man living on the Hudson South of Albany," which simply is not accurate. It also disagrees with other sources about him being "sent" to Europe, in contrast to the other accounts that say that he ran away from home when he was young and his family didn't know where he went.