Luman Walters - Golden Plates influencer?

[hope_for_things]

I'm currently reading Richard Van Wagoner's new book "Natural Born Seer" which covers the time period of 1805 - 1830, and I'm finding it very interesting and well written.  I came across the story of Luman Walters and his influence on the Smiths and treasure digging in the 1820s in Chapter 7.  This story made me wonder, and the author doesn't make this assertion, but its a question I have.  Was Walters perhaps an influencing factor around the story of the Golden Plates in the first place.  He was a treasure seeker/conjurer/fortune teller, and he was around in the early 1820s.  Two quotes of interest to me were these:

Quote

On another occasion, Alvin Smith and Willard Chase worked together on a promising dig on property occupied by the Saunders family but owned by Abner Cole.  The men paid Walters $3.00 per day for his services.  According to Saunders: "At the time the big holes was dug in the hill they was duped by one Walters[,] who pretended to be a conjurer.  I heard Willard Chase say that he was duped."

 Source: Nov 12, 1884 interview with Lorenzo Saunders

Quote

never heard such oaths fall from the lips of any man as I heard uttered by a man who was called a fortune teller, and who knew where those plates were hid.  He went three times in one summer to get them, --the same summer in which Joseph did get them.  Baptist, Presbyterian, and Methodist priests and deacons sent for him to tell where those plates were, and to get them out of the hill where they were deposited; and he had not returned to his home from the last trip he made for them more than a week or ten days before Joseph got them.  Joseph was what we call an ignorant boy, but this fortune teller whose name I do not remember was a man of profound learning.  he had put himself in possession of all the learning in the States, -- had been to France, Germany Italy, and through the world, --had been educated for a priest and turned out to be a devil.  I do not know but that he would have been a devil if he had followed the profession of a priest among what are termed the christian denominations.  He could preach as well as the best of them, and I never heard a man swear as he did.  He could tell that those plates were there, and that they were a treasure whose value to the people could not be told; for that I myself heard him say."

Source: Brigham Young July 19, 1857

From these and other quotes, we know that Walters was around during the time that Joseph got the plates, and we also know he was around early on before Alvin died.  I'm wondering if anyone knows more about Luman Walters, and if anyone has speculated whether his influence may have contributed to the story of the Golden Plates in the first place.  

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by hope_for_things

[mapman]

I've done quite a bit of research into his life. His name was actually Luman Walter, but on the newspaper articles written about him and his connection to Joseph Smith he is called Luman Walters, so that is what most historians call him. His father was a Revolutionary War veteran, and his family were the founders of a few towns in northern Vermont. He moved to Wayne County, New York, in the early 1820s. His family had a tradition of practicing folk medicine with herbs and things, and this was his primary occupation, and became fairly famous for it when he moved further south near Canandaigua. One medical journal mocked some of their colleagues by comparing them to Walter in 1853: "give our somewhile competitor, Dr. Walters, the celebrated 'witch doctor,' of Canandaigua, an education, dress him in broadcloth, polish up his boorishness and reform his profanity, but leave him the same unmitigated scamp he now is, and according to this scale of qualification, he would not merit expulsion from the oldest, most venerable, and most thoroughly organized of our state societies." His obituary described him as "an eccentric but successful practitioner of medicine."

Walter was involved in treasure digging, apparently owned a grimoire, and claimed to have traveled to Europe in his youth where he was trained in the occult. He was thought to have mystical powers by the local treasure seekers and they would sometimes hire him to help them look for things, and in my opinion he could definitely be one way that Joseph Smith was exposed to the occult. In any case, there is no evidence that he was a religious person, so I don't think he necessarily had anything to do with Joseph Smith's claims to have received new scriptures.

[Benjamin Seeker]

I don't have sources on hand, but I read that after an unsuccessful dig at the hill now called cumorah, Luman and some other participants were gathered and he said that eventually one person would successfully get something from that hill and pointed to Joseph Smith, who was there.

 

[hope_for_things]

7 hours ago, mapman said:

I've done quite a bit of research into his life. His name was actually Luman Walter, but on the newspaper articles written about him and his connection to Joseph Smith he is called Luman Walters, so that is what most historians call him. His father was a Revolutionary War veteran, and his family were the founders of a few towns in northern Vermont. He moved to Wayne County, New York, in the early 1820s. His family had a tradition of practicing folk medicine with herbs and things, and this was his primary occupation, and became fairly famous for it when he moved further south near Canandaigua. One medical journal mocked some of their colleagues by comparing them to Walter in 1853: "give our somewhile competitor, Dr. Walters, the celebrated 'witch doctor,' of Canandaigua, an education, dress him in broadcloth, polish up his boorishness and reform his profanity, but leave him the same unmitigated scamp he now is, and according to this scale of qualification, he would not merit expulsion from the oldest, most venerable, and most thoroughly organized of our state societies." His obituary described him as "an eccentric but successful practitioner of medicine."

Walter was involved in treasure digging, apparently owned a grimoire, and claimed to have traveled to Europe in his youth where he was trained in the occult. He was thought to have mystical powers by the local treasure seekers and they would sometimes hire him to help them look for things, and in my opinion he could definitely be one way that Joseph Smith was exposed to the occult. In any case, there is no evidence that he was a religious person, so I don't think he necessarily had anything to do with Joseph Smith's claims to have received new scriptures.

Thanks, very interesting.  I wonder if the concept of golden plates evolved, perhaps it was more of a treasure at first and later became a religious record?  It's just speculation on my part, but perhaps Walters planted the seed and it later grew into something different over the course of 4 years time.  

Interesting that he wasn't religious, yet many local believers in folk magic thought of these practices as very compatible with their religious beliefs.  

[hope_for_things]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I don't have sources on hand, but I read that after an unsuccessful dig at the hill now called cumorah, Luman and some other participants were gathered and he said that eventually one person would successfully get something from that hill and pointed to Joseph Smith, who was there.

 

Yes, I've read that quote too.  Van Wagoner seemed to think that Walters was a mentor of sorts to Joseph on this subject of folk magic.  

[Benjamin Seeker]

36 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Yes, I've read that quote too.  Van Wagoner seemed to think that Walters was a mentor of sorts to Joseph on this subject of folk magic.  

So does Michael Quinn. He thinks Walter may even have made their magic parchments, ironically referred to as lumens typically, though I don't remember what pointed Quinn towards that idea.

[Jude2]

19 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm currently reading Richard Van Wagoner's new book "Natural Born Seer" which covers the time period of 1805 - 1830, and I'm finding it very interesting and well written.  I came across the story of Luman Walters and his influence on the Smiths and treasure digging in the 1820s in Chapter 7.  This story made me wonder, and the author doesn't make this assertion, but its a question I have.  Was Walters perhaps an influencing factor around the story of the Golden Plates in the first place.  He was a treasure seeker/conjurer/fortune teller, and he was around in the early 1820s.  Two quotes of interest to me were these:

 Source: Nov 12, 1884 interview with Lorenzo Saunders

Source: Brigham Young July 19, 1857

From these and other quotes, we know that Walters was around during the time that Joseph got the plates, and we also know he was around early on before Alvin died.  I'm wondering if anyone knows more about Luman Walters, and if anyone has speculated whether his influence may have contributed to the story of the Golden Plates in the first place.  

 

Ya know I just do not understand this, does anyone expect us to believe anything Saunders said when he lied so blatantly about seeing Sidney Rigdon with Joseph before the Book of Mormon was published? 

[Benjamin Seeker]

Adding some tangential discussion (again this is mostly off the top of my head): 

Luman came from a well to do family who had enough money to send him to Paris for an education. Locals in NY said he left fairly normal and came back with all his occult practices, etc. Apparently he was involved with Mesmerism, which wasn't occult in and of itself but was associated with occult practices. Mesmerism, or animal magnetism, was an early form of energy healing created by Franz Mesmer, who thought of it as a great scientific discovery. It also involved an early form of hypnosis, and Mesmer is the where we get the term mesmerized from.

Luman also had a book containing the latin text of the Orations of Cisero, which he would translate from as part of his practice. It's unclear to me if the translation was accurate or nonsense, though we should recognize it was possibly correct considering his potentially classical education. I don't remember if this is part of treasure digging, healing, or something else, but my first guess would be his healing practice. He would apparently insert nonsense language into his translation, which sounds to me like some form of pentecostal-style speaking in tongues but in a non-religious setting. It sounds like this part of his practice was suppose to have some magical overtones.

The above gives a little more context for his potential contribution to early Mormonism. The parallels, which are at best loose correlations, do need to be at least recognized.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Benjamin Seeker

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, Jude2 said:

Ya know I just do not understand this, does anyone expect us to believe anything Saunders said when he lied so blatantly about seeing Sidney Rigdon with Joseph before the Book of Mormon was published? 

If Saunders were the only source for the Luman Walters story, then yes I think we should be skeptical, but having multiple sources corroborating this account is what makes it believable.  

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Adding some tangential discussion (again this is mostly off the top of my head): 

Luman came from a well to do family who had enough money to send him to Paris for an education. Locals in NY said he left fairly normal and came back with all his occult practices, etc. Apparently he was involved with Mesmerism, which wasn't occult in and of itself but was associated with occult practices. Mesmerism, or animal magnetism, was an early form of energy healing created by Franz Mesmer, who thought of it as a great scientific discovery. It also involved an early form of hypnosis, and Mesmer is the where we get the term mesmerized from.

Luman also had a book containing the latin text of the Orations of Cisero, which he would translate from as part of his practice. It's unclear to me if the translation was accurate or nonsense, though we should recognize it was possibly correct considering his potentially classical education. I don't remember if this is part of treasure digging, healing, or something else, but my first guess would be his healing practice. He would apparently insert nonsense language into his translation, which sounds to me like some form of pentecostal-style speaking in tongues but in a non-religious setting. It sounds like this part of his practice was suppose to have some magical overtones.

The above gives a little more context for his potential contribution to early Mormonism. The parallels, which are at best loose correlations, do need to be at least recognized.

Wow, very interesting.  I hadn't heard about the history of Mesmerism, that is fascinating.  I agree with you that there were some parallels here.  It seems like Joseph was at first a participant in some of the more Pentecostal style types of religious experience, Methodism which he explored earliest on and more closely aligned with was all about the charismatic religious experiences.  Van Wagoner talks about this in his book as well, I just finished that section.  

But then later in Mormonism Joseph seems to have become distrusting of these more charismatic elements and started to preach against them.  Its interesting to see how his ideas changed over time.  

[mapman]

15 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks, very interesting.  I wonder if the concept of golden plates evolved, perhaps it was more of a treasure at first and later became a religious record?  It's just speculation on my part, but perhaps Walters planted the seed and it later grew into something different over the course of 4 years time.  

Interesting that he wasn't religious, yet many local believers in folk magic thought of these practices as very compatible with their religious beliefs.  

Well, Walters could have been religious, but we don't really have anything left behind from his perspective, and most of the people that wrote about him portray him as being more crass than reverent. I haven't seen anything to indicate that he was a member of a church unlike many of the other treasure seekers. The esoteric tradition in western civilization is pretty broad, so some elements of it are more religious while other elements might have a basis in a belief in spirits and angels, but don't necessarily require great devotion to God. Most of the folk magic and treasure seeking would probably operate more on that level. In my opinion, Joseph Smith bears much greater similarity to people like John Dee than Luman Walter, in that they were involved in the "occult" but for religious purposes. The parallels between John Dee and Joseph Smith actually run pretty deep, but as far as I know, no one has written on that topic.

As for the story of the gold plates changing: The sources for this time tend to be conflicting and late. There are some sources that claim that Walters was the source for Joseph Smith's ideas. I think he could have definitely influenced him in some ways, but this would be speculative and I really don't see much continuity with him and Joseph Smith's religious ideas.

[Benjamin Seeker]

1 hour ago, mapman said:

Well, Walters could have been religious, but we don't really have anything left behind from his perspective, and most of the people that wrote about him portray him as being more crass than reverent. I haven't seen anything to indicate that he was a member of a church unlike many of the other treasure seekers. The esoteric tradition in western civilization is pretty broad, so some elements of it are more religious while other elements might have a basis in a belief in spirits and angels, but don't necessarily require great devotion to God. Most of the folk magic and treasure seeking would probably operate more on that level. In my opinion, Joseph Smith bears much greater similarity to people like John Dee than Luman Walter, in that they were involved in the "occult" but for religious purposes. The parallels between John Dee and Joseph Smith actually run pretty deep, but as far as I know, no one has written on that topic.

As for the story of the gold plates changing: The sources for this time tend to be conflicting and late. There are some sources that claim that Walters was the source for Joseph Smith's ideas. I think he could have definitely influenced him in some ways, but this would be speculative and I really don't see much continuity with him and Joseph Smith's religious ideas.

Mapman, what sources can you point me to? I've been wanting to find more on him. Have you read the Walter family history? I know he is at least mentioned in there, and I was interested to see what it said. Also, any idea if he was a Freemason?

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, mapman said:

Well, Walters could have been religious, but we don't really have anything left behind from his perspective, and most of the people that wrote about him portray him as being more crass than reverent. I haven't seen anything to indicate that he was a member of a church unlike many of the other treasure seekers. The esoteric tradition in western civilization is pretty broad, so some elements of it are more religious while other elements might have a basis in a belief in spirits and angels, but don't necessarily require great devotion to God. Most of the folk magic and treasure seeking would probably operate more on that level. In my opinion, Joseph Smith bears much greater similarity to people like John Dee than Luman Walter, in that they were involved in the "occult" but for religious purposes. The parallels between John Dee and Joseph Smith actually run pretty deep, but as far as I know, no one has written on that topic.

As for the story of the gold plates changing: The sources for this time tend to be conflicting and late. There are some sources that claim that Walters was the source for Joseph Smith's ideas. I think he could have definitely influenced him in some ways, but this would be speculative and I really don't see much continuity with him and Joseph Smith's religious ideas.

Thanks your knowledge and perspective is appreciated.  Maybe more research will be done on the John Dee connection in the future, sounds like an interesting one.  

[mapman]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Mapman, what sources can you point me to? I've been wanting to find more on him. Have you read the Walter family history? I know he is at least mentioned in there, and I was interested to see what it said. Also, any idea if he was a Freemason?

I haven't read the family history. I have found some 63 sources about him that are online. I attached them to his familysearch page: https://familysearch.org/tree/person/KZ18-J99. (I'm not related to him or anything, I just find familysearch a good way to organize sources and information about people!) D. Michael Quinn's book also has a good summary of his life. I've not seen any indication that he was a freemason.

[mapman]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks your knowledge and perspective is appreciated.  Maybe more research will be done on the John Dee connection in the future, sounds like an interesting one.  

I wrote a paper about him and Mormonism for one of my university classes this semester. If I worked a little more on it, maybe I could get it published eventually! He was an interesting guy, that's for sure.

Edited December 14, 2016 by mapman

[Benjamin Seeker]

At least one person back in 1831 felt that Luman was involved with the BOM genesis. Browsing mapman's sources I found this interesting note from a newspaper article (https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE3121143):

Quote

The first idea of a “Book,” was doubtless suggested to the Smiths by one Walters, a juggling fortune-teller, who made the ignorant believe that an old book in his possession, in the Latin language, contained an account of the anti-deluvians, &c. and the word was given out that the book Smith was about to find, was a history of hidden treasures.

 

Edited December 14, 2016 by Benjamin Seeker

[Benjamin Seeker]

I found a mention of Luman using his old book to lead a treasure hunt, and the book of Pukei talks about him owning multiple strange books (maybe besides his Latin text he also had a grimoire? That would make some sense, and I think this is what Quinn suggested).

I also just learned from this source (http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspaper 11/Geneva NY Gazette/Geneva NY Gazette 1855-1860 Grayscale/Geneva NY Gazette 1855-1860 Grayscale - 0799.pdf), that Luman used a "conjuration stone" in his healing practice. 

There are a lot of sources positing a close relationship between JS and Walter. Pretty fun stuff. Awesome resource mapman!

[mapman]

8 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I found a mention of Luman using his old book to lead a treasure hunt, and the book of Pukei talks about him owning multiple strange books (maybe besides his Latin text he also had a grimoire? That would make some sense, and I think this is what Quinn suggested).

I also just learned from this source (http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspaper 11/Geneva NY Gazette/Geneva NY Gazette 1855-1860 Grayscale/Geneva NY Gazette 1855-1860 Grayscale - 0799.pdf), that Luman used a "conjuration stone" in his healing practice. 

There are a lot of sources positing a close relationship between JS and Walter. Pretty fun stuff. Awesome resource mapman!

I think most of the most influential grimoires were written in Latin. If I remember correctly, Quinn showed that the magic diagrams that the Hyrum Smith family owned were from Cornelius Agrippa's De occulta philosophia, and argued that the Smith's got those from Walters. The "Book of Pukei," a satire, says that he had Cicero's Orations in Latin but told the treasure diggers it had stories about buried treasure. That seems kind of far-fetched to me, I think it is more likely he just had a grimoire or maybe more than one.

[hope_for_things]

14 hours ago, mapman said:

I wrote a paper about him and Mormonism for one of my university classes this semester. If I worked a little more on it, maybe I could get it published eventually! He was an interesting guy, that's for sure.

Wow, that would be cool, you should do that, or include it in a book.  Are you a history major, or into Mormon Studies?  

[mapman]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Wow, that would be cool, you should do that, or include it in a book.  Are you a history major, or into Mormon Studies?  

Yeah I'm a history major. I enjoy Mormon Studies as well. Over the summer I had the opportunity to be an intern with the Joseph Smith Papers, so that was a pretty neat way to get more into it.

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, mapman said:

Yeah I'm a history major. I enjoy Mormon Studies as well. Over the summer I had the opportunity to be an intern with the Joseph Smith Papers, so that was a pretty neat way to get more into it.

That must have been fascinating..!

[mapman]

21 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

That must have been fascinating..!

It was really cool! I was working on the records of a court case that involved Joseph Smith. I can't really go into details about it until it is published, though  

[mfbukowski]

Very interesting stuff- perhaps Walters helped in the materialization of the plates.  See this article by Ann Taves

http://www.religion.ucsb.edu/wp-content/uploads/B-6-Golden-Plates-Numen.pdf

I think this is definitely one possible scenario.

A Catholic priest is able to take a piece of bread and turn it into the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ- the transformation of plates would be small potatoes.

Sometimes angels have bodies.  And who was the angel on the banks of the Susquehanna ?

That's a freebie.   I have no interest in writing on that.

Edited December 14, 2016 by mfbukowski

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, mapman said:

Yeah I'm a history major. I enjoy Mormon Studies as well. Over the summer I had the opportunity to be an intern with the Joseph Smith Papers, so that was a pretty neat way to get more into it.

Sounds like a cool experience.  What did you think of the JSPP overall from your internship?  They seem to do really good work in general, but I've heard some concerns that they aren't as transparent with controversial material, and we know from past history that the church wants to control the message.  If you're willing to comment, any observations on that from your experience?  

[mapman]

On 12/14/2016 at 0:33 PM, hope_for_things said:

Sounds like a cool experience.  What did you think of the JSPP overall from your internship?  They seem to do really good work in general, but I've heard some concerns that they aren't as transparent with controversial material, and we know from past history that the church wants to control the message.  If you're willing to comment, any observations on that from your experience?  

I was just a lowly intern, so I don't know that I'm really qualified to say much on this topic. I will say that all the people I personally worked with were definitely committed to transparency and we discussed the need to be completely transparent multiple times. Anything published by the Joseph Smith Papers is reviewed by apostles who sometimes ask for things to be stated differently, but I haven't heard of them being asked not to talk about something at all. I didn't have any personal experience dealing with the church leaders, so I don't really know what that's like. As far as I know, the people running the JSPP have been pleased with their work so far and feel like the leaders of the church are committed to transparency as well.

Edited December 15, 2016 by mapman