Popular Post Calm Posted November 17, 2016 Popular Post Posted November 17, 2016 My POV is once someone has developed past a certain level of evolving, experience, charity, and knowledge provide all that is needed to resist any temptation that might come their way. There is nothing that God desires more than being God and bringing joy and eternal life to others and his knowledge and experience allow him to know there is not a better or easier way to go about it than him continuing to be God. So while there may be infinite temptations that might cause someone still developing to fall because of lack of awareness of long term consequences or weakness of personal character, God suffers from neither limitation. We can trust him to never fall because he not only knows better, but has the moral strength not to desire sin. 5
Robert F. Smith Posted November 18, 2016 Posted November 18, 2016 12 hours ago, bluebell said: Yes, and it's the same way that I, being LDS, view whether or not God can fall. He could theoretically, but He won't because of who He is. Perhaps so, but Mark is asking what would happen if such a god were to fail? Sounds like a great plotline for a powerful story. And Richard Wagner already wrote the music for it in his Ring Cycle, with a wonderful love-story between Siegfried and Brunhilde, ending with the death of the gods. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fdNBjCBpaA (Siegfried's funeral march and death of the gods). Or see the two-part film of the Ring of the Nibelungs, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7emBbh0NYj8&list=PLfdn_sKuvsIBOF9dKK_cZp2wtRCRrj0R3 , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN3GxUPT3J8&index=2&list=PLfdn_sKuvsIBOF9dKK_cZp2wtRCRrj0R3 . As though the failure of Satan were not enough, taking a third of all the host of heaven with him into Outer Darkness. That is already an unfathomable tragedy, and it points up the true gravity of the challenge we all face if we fail. We need courage and resolve. The Holy Spirit is at our beck and call. We have only to ask . . . 1
Buckeye Posted November 18, 2016 Posted November 18, 2016 19 hours ago, bluebell said: Does statistics support the existence of perfection? Honest question because i've never studied it. What is perfection? I'm not trying to be trite, but that's a loaded question. My best scriptural take on perfection is that it mean "complete." If that is the definition, then I'd argue, yes, statistics can support the existence of something being perfect.
Buckeye Posted November 18, 2016 Posted November 18, 2016 18 hours ago, JLHPROF said: True. God can fall. And in all the eternities that have ever existed infinitely backwards it is of course possible that a God used their agency and fell as a result. To say God cannot fall is to say God has no choice, no agency. Which in turn would be to say we have more power than he does. Still doesn't make it even remotely likely. But: I think the solution we're looking for here is the realization that IF god chose to fall, then at the point he would cease to be (a) god. I'm very comfortable with this formulation. In one sense 'God' is a being like you or me. In another sense, 'god' is a state of being that does not change. So while individual actors can enter or leave that state of being, the standard for qualifying for the state of being does not change. 2
thesometimesaint Posted November 18, 2016 Posted November 18, 2016 19 hours ago, Oliver_Cowdery said: How can you claim any knowledge that God hasn't already fallen? How do you know that? How do you know he will not fall in the future? So far you've just given bare assertions. Does a father give a serpent to his son when asked for bread?
Oliver_Cowdery Posted November 18, 2016 Posted November 18, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: Does a father give a serpent to his son when asked for bread? Sometimes, yes, that kind of thing unfortunately does happen. I am in the process of reading the chapters on historic child abuse in the book The Better Angels of Our Nature. I thought I was going to be reading a feel good book. But it's actually kind of eye opening dark history. Humans have been quite openly awful even to their own children. Edited November 18, 2016 by Oliver_Cowdery
bluebell Posted November 18, 2016 Posted November 18, 2016 2 hours ago, Buckeye said: What is perfection? I'm not trying to be trite, but that's a loaded question. My best scriptural take on perfection is that it mean "complete." If that is the definition, then I'd argue, yes, statistics can support the existence of something being perfect. I was just using it in the way that we tend to when talking about God-no mistakes, no sins, never wrong, no regression, no atrophy, no death, etc.
JLHPROF Posted November 18, 2016 Posted November 18, 2016 2 hours ago, Buckeye said: I think the solution we're looking for here is the realization that IF god chose to fall, then at the point he would cease to be (a) god. I'm very comfortable with this formulation. In one sense 'God' is a being like you or me. In another sense, 'god' is a state of being that does not change. So while individual actors can enter or leave that state of being, the standard for qualifying for the state of being does not change. I like this - very true.
JLHPROF Posted November 18, 2016 Posted November 18, 2016 2 hours ago, Buckeye said: What is perfection? I'm not trying to be trite, but that's a loaded question. My best scriptural take on perfection is that it mean "complete." If that is the definition, then I'd argue, yes, statistics can support the existence of something being perfect. Complete within a specific sphere. Limitless spheres mean limitless opportunities for increased perfection.
Five Solas Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 On 11/17/2016 at 8:31 AM, bluebell said: Yes, and it's the same way that I, being LDS, view whether or not God can fall. He could theoretically, but He won't because of who He is. After some thought (and reading several of the replies), I've reconsidered my answer to you back on page 1. I should have stated "no" unequivocally rather than "yes, in the sense..." Trent Horn on "Catholic Answers" offers good perspective on the question. You can read it here (and the discussion that follows is pretty interesting too). http://www.catholic.com/blog/trent-horn/could-jesus-have-sinned-absolutely-not Now that I'm conceding it was error, would you still agree with it ("it's the same way that I, being LDS, view...")? Or does this cause you to change your mind as well? --Erik
strappinglad Posted November 20, 2016 Posted November 20, 2016 On 11/18/2016 at 9:17 AM, Oliver_Cowdery said: . Humans have been quite openly awful even to their own children. Yup, all one needs to do is read the OT about Baal worship ... and then pick up the latest newspaper/internet feed. Personally, I see life as impossible without God. The cosmos is violently opposed to the kind of life we have here . Without the manipulation of surroundings and the proper positioning in space and time , life as we know it would fade away. So, for me, if God ceased to be God, we would soon cease to be, at least in the mortal sense. Entropy would rule. For those who think that all of this happened by random chance, it then logically follows that us arguing about it has no meaning at all. 1
Oliver_Cowdery Posted November 20, 2016 Posted November 20, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, strappinglad said: For those who think that all of this happened by random chance, it then logically follows that us arguing about it has no meaning at all. Logically I don't think it follows that if our circumstances came about by some measure of random chance that therefore there is no meaning to anything. I would say that one chooses (or gives) meaning to the live they lead. Edited November 20, 2016 by Oliver_Cowdery
bluebell Posted November 22, 2016 Posted November 22, 2016 On 11/19/2016 at 4:46 PM, Five Solas said: After some thought (and reading several of the replies), I've reconsidered my answer to you back on page 1. I should have stated "no" unequivocally rather than "yes, in the sense..." Trent Horn on "Catholic Answers" offers good perspective on the question. You can read it here (and the discussion that follows is pretty interesting too). http://www.catholic.com/blog/trent-horn/could-jesus-have-sinned-absolutely-not Now that I'm conceding it was error, would you still agree with it ("it's the same way that I, being LDS, view...")? Or does this cause you to change your mind as well? --Erik I'll check out the link and let you know my thoughts.
pogi Posted November 22, 2016 Posted November 22, 2016 On 11/19/2016 at 10:52 PM, Oliver_Cowdery said: Logically I don't think it follows that if our circumstances came about by some measure of random chance that therefore there is no meaning to anything. I would say that one chooses (or gives) meaning to the live they lead. Yes, but all of that "meaning" would be meaningless when all is said and done. In fact, all "meaning" would be nothing more than a random chemical reaction and not a true "choice" at all. If the universe is random, so are you - a reactive, choice-less, directionless, reasonless mass.
Guest Posted November 23, 2016 Posted November 23, 2016 On November 17, 2016 at 5:54 AM, Mark Beesley said: This place doesn't change much when you go away for a while and come back. It is nice to have some stability, particularly now. Anyway I was doing some reading in the Book of Enoch -- I mean really, how many times can you read the Book of Mormon? -- and came across a comment on a member's blog, where another member wrote in a comment thread that we believe a god can fall. I kinda gasped and read on because what I was really interested in angels having sex with mortals - - and everything that entails. There were a few more zingers in the thread, but the one about a falling god was the most . . . well, it was the most. I have been a member of the Church my entire life, well except for the years when I wasn't. I went to Primary, Sunday School, Priesthood meetings, and MIA religiously. I went on a mission, attended the Y but graduated from the U, and married in the temple. I have read the complete Standard Works cover-to-cover, and one of them the same number of times I have read the Lord of the Rings. Nowhere in my experience has the concept of the possibility that a god could fall dawned on me. As I thought about it, I suspect this idea grows from the doctrine of agency, or free-will. Since a god presumably has the agency given us, then a god could also fall by the improper use of her agency. (A male god would never jeopardize that sweet gig!) No. I don't think so. But let me qualify that. If we were talking strictly about gods, other than Gods with the qualities of Ellohim and Jehovah, like Zeus, Jupiter, Vishnu, Shiva, and so on, then I suppose, if there are lesser gods such as these, they might be capable of falling, though I can't imagine what that would look like. If Helen of Troy is the punishment for Zeus' dalliance with the mortal Leda -- well, I'm not gonna criticize him. So, ignoring the gods for a moment, could God fall? And what would that fall look like? And why are we busting our butts now trying to be good if this is a struggle that is infinite in duration? Will we really be in jeopardy forever, and ever, and ever? No God cannot fall, for he sees the beginning from the end. Therefore he would fail know what would await him
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