thesometimesaint Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 God doesn't make mistakes. Us mortal make plenty.
Darren10 Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 This brings up what I think is a very similar LDS doctrine found in the Book of Mormon about God "ceas[ing] to be God". This is found in Alma 42 when Alma was speaking to his son Corianton. In speaking about God being a God of mercy, Alma warns (at least that' how I read it) Corianton that if God were to be only merciful, God would "cease to be God" by destroying justice: Quote 22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God. This verse has always intrigued me and only until very recently I thought this meant that God would fall. Then, while deeply pondering this verse and theoretically applying it to a person I knew online who questioned too much justice and thought all religious organizations were guilty of it, it dawned on me that this chapter in the Book of Mormon does not need to mean that God would fall but, instead, it could mean that God would become irrelevant to us if He destroyed justice. Think of it this way, on the extreme end, if God were only merciful and no matter what we did God would forgive us and we would be saved, then what difference would it make if I made an effort to obey His commandments or not? Whether I obeyed all of them perfectly or perfectly rejected and rebelled against them all, I'd be saved. On the flip side, although Alma does not talk about God destroying mercy, wouldn't the same be true if He did? If, on the other extreme end, God were only just, then, no matter what, everyone who did something wrong would not be saved (in God's kingdom / in His presence). that would be everyone except Jesus Christ. If this were the case, what difference would it make to obey God's commandments? No matter how good we obey, that one mistake would cost us eternity. In either case above, God would become irrelevant to us and thus "cease to be God". Not because He is no longer God but because obeying Him and coming unto Him would no longer be relevant and have no effect whatsoever on us. But we know from the Book of Mormon that God is extremely relevant to us. That through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, both justice and mercy are satisfied. Furthermore, although God is both just and merciful I think it's abundantly clear from the Book of Mormon that God leans heavily on mercy. He does so at no cost to justice but God truly is a God of mercy. Since this is a tangent however somewhat related to this thread's main topic, I thought I'd throw that into the mix.
Oliver_Cowdery Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) 51 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: God doesn't make mistakes. Us mortal make plenty. How would you know that God never made a mistake as a God? It seems like so far this thread is mostly just naked assertions. Edited November 17, 2016 by Oliver_Cowdery
Oliver_Cowdery Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: But realistically? Possible doesn't mean likely, or even infinitesimally probable. How can you assign a low probability to this? We'd have to know an awfully lot about other Gods before we could work out any type of probability. For all we know Gods falling from Godhood might just be the norm. Even if the probability is very low we are still dealing with eternity here. It can be reasoned that on an infinite timeline possibilities with low probabilities will happen eventually given enough time. Edited November 17, 2016 by Oliver_Cowdery
bluebell Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 1 minute ago, Oliver_Cowdery said: How could know that? Gravity might just keep doing its thing without a God. If God stopped being God our reality might continue to look exactly as it does now. Revealed knowledge is the only way that we can know much about God. It's knowledge about the priesthood and the light of Christ that lets us know how important God is to our existence.
thesometimesaint Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 8 minutes ago, Oliver_Cowdery said: How would you know if God made a mistake? How can you know that he's never made a mistake as a God? It seems like so far this thread is mostly just naked assertions. God is perfect. 1
Jeanne Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Oliver_Cowdery said: How would you know if God made a mistake? How can you know that he's never made a mistake as a God? It seems like this thread is mostly naked assertions about God. I agree. The thing is..as humans here on this earth..yes, we make mistakes and in the LDS realm we make mistakes to learn and grow..repent..to become a God and/or Goddess. The key word here is "become". Are we not all becoming to be the best we can be...and can we do that without failing once in awhile? We will be the same person in the hereafter as we are here now...maybe more intelligent ..more spiritual...and more attune to the nature of God..but we will still be..becoming. His progression, I believe depends on ours...and that there must be so disheartening..and yet with His love...a forgiving and learning sense of the divine. I think what I am trying to say is that if He is not perfected...though sinless..it makes HIm more our Father than not..and understanding and process that connects us from one world to the other. Edited November 17, 2016 by Jeanne
thesometimesaint Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 5 minutes ago, Oliver_Cowdery said: How can you assign a low probability to this? We'd have to know an awfully lot about other Gods before we could work out any type of probability. For all we know Gods falling from Godhood might just be the norm. There is only one God with which we have anything to do with.
Oliver_Cowdery Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) 20 minutes ago, bluebell said: Revealed knowledge is the only way that we can know much about God. It's knowledge about the priesthood and the light of Christ that lets us know how important God is to our existence. So is there revealed knowledge that God can not fall? Edited November 17, 2016 by Oliver_Cowdery
Oliver_Cowdery Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: There is only one God with which we have anything to do with. So how then can we conclude that a God falling from Godhood is a rare event? Edited November 17, 2016 by Oliver_Cowdery
bluebell Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 14 minutes ago, Oliver_Cowdery said: If God is capable of making choices than he could simple choose to change and choose something less than perfect. I don't see how we can eliminate that possibility. He could, but He won't. I could choose to abandon my children for a life of less responsibility, but the existence of that choice doesn't mean that it's a possibility that has any chance of happening. I love them too much. 1
Thinking Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 What kind of act would God have to do in order to fall?
bluebell Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, Oliver_Cowdery said: So is there is there revealed knowledge that God can not fall? The only God we have any revealed knowledge of is our Father in Heaven, and yes, the scriptures declare that He will not fall. 1
bluebell Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 Just now, Thinking said: What kind of act would God have to do in order to fall? Sin. Any sin. 1
Oliver_Cowdery Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Thinking said: What kind of act would God have to do in order to fall? " I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles. " According to LDS believe if God does so much as just change he will stop being God. Edited November 17, 2016 by Oliver_Cowdery
JLHPROF Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Buckeye said: Anything that is possible, and is tried an infinite number of times, eventually happens. True. God can fall. And in all the eternities that have ever existed infinitely backwards it is of course possible that a God used their agency and fell as a result. To say God cannot fall is to say God has no choice, no agency. Which in turn would be to say we have more power than he does. Still doesn't make it even remotely likely. But: Edited November 17, 2016 by JLHPROF
Oliver_Cowdery Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: Still doesn't make it even remotely likely. I can't understand how you can make that calculation. Edited November 17, 2016 by Oliver_Cowdery
JLHPROF Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 4 minutes ago, Oliver_Cowdery said: " I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles. " According to LDS believe if God does so much as just change he will stop being God. That would depend on what change. Taking that statement out of context and applying it to everything that God has ever done seems like an overreach. But yes, there are elements to God that cannot be changed without ending his Godhood. What he eats for breakfast isn't one of them.
Oliver_Cowdery Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: That would depend on what change. Taking that statement out of context and applying it to everything that God has ever done seems like an overreach. But yes, there are elements to God that cannot be changed without ending his Godhood. What he eats for breakfast isn't one of them. Agreed. In context that scripture is saying if God stopped being a God of miracles than he would change and therefore he would stop being a God. I guess that is one indicator a believing LDS member could look to to determine if God fell. We would read about miracles in the past that didn't have a modern equivalent. Edited November 17, 2016 by Oliver_Cowdery
bluebell Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: That would depend on what change. Taking that statement out of context and applying it to everything that God has ever done seems like an overreach. But yes, there are elements to God that cannot be changed without ending his Godhood. What he eats for breakfast isn't one of them. Exactly, not the kind of change the scriptures are talking about. If didn't let my 2 month old eat peanut butter but suddenly i'm giving it to him when he's 8 months old, that's not sign that i've changed. If i let my toddler run thru the sprinkler naked in the back yard but won't let my 11 year old do the same, it's not a sign that i've changed. If i wear make up every day and then one day don't, it doesn't mean that i've changed. Etc. Etc. 1
bluebell Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 4 minutes ago, Oliver_Cowdery said: I guess that is one indicator of what it would look like if God stopped being God. We would read about micrlces in the past that didn't have a modern equivalent. Not exactly though. That chapter also teaches that miracles can only exist if people have faith in God and that if miracles ever cease, it means that faith has ceased, and not that God has ceased to be God. 1
Oliver_Cowdery Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Not exactly though. That chapter also teaches that miracles can only exist if people have faith in God and that if miracles ever cease, it means that faith has ceased, and not that God has ceased to be God. You're right. We'd have to control for the levels of people's faithfulness before we could conclude that God has stopped being God based on a lack of miracles. It would be difficult if not impossible to measure rates of faithfulness both now and in the past. So if we now observe a lack of miracles, under the LDS belief system, we can only concluded that there is low faith or that God has fallen. We don't have a good way to rule out one of those possibilities. Edited November 17, 2016 by Oliver_Cowdery 1
thesometimesaint Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 50 minutes ago, Oliver_Cowdery said: So how then can we conclude that a God falling from Godhood is a rare event? We don't know if it's a rarity. Only that our God hasn't. There has been and always be agency. So our God can technically fall, but he will not.
Oliver_Cowdery Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: We don't know if it's a rarity. Only that our God hasn't. There has been and always be agency. So our God can technically fall, but he will not. How can you claim any knowledge that God hasn't already fallen? How do you know that? How do you know he will not fall in the future? So far you've just given bare assertions. Edited November 17, 2016 by Oliver_Cowdery
ERMD Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: Perhaps I am looking at failure a different way. Not a sin..just a mistake. A calculative mistake made in part by the humans who are created..a face palm in choosing a prophet and having him pre-ordained for a restoration..that did not bring about the very best in said restoration. I am not talking about God as sinning...but learning by mistakes. No mistakes on His part. We sometimes fail in our mortal state. It's that whole probationary thing. 1
Recommended Posts