Mark Beesley Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 This place doesn't change much when you go away for a while and come back. It is nice to have some stability, particularly now. Anyway I was doing some reading in the Book of Enoch -- I mean really, how many times can you read the Book of Mormon? -- and came across a comment on a member's blog, where another member wrote in a comment thread that we believe a god can fall. I kinda gasped and read on because what I was really interested in angels having sex with mortals - - and everything that entails. There were a few more zingers in the thread, but the one about a falling god was the most . . . well, it was the most. I have been a member of the Church my entire life, well except for the years when I wasn't. I went to Primary, Sunday School, Priesthood meetings, and MIA religiously. I went on a mission, attended the Y but graduated from the U, and married in the temple. I have read the complete Standard Works cover-to-cover, and one of them the same number of times I have read the Lord of the Rings. Nowhere in my experience has the concept of the possibility that a god could fall dawned on me. As I thought about it, I suspect this idea grows from the doctrine of agency, or free-will. Since a god presumably has the agency given us, then a god could also fall by the improper use of her agency. (A male god would never jeopardize that sweet gig!) No. I don't think so. But let me qualify that. If we were talking strictly about gods, other than Gods with the qualities of Ellohim and Jehovah, like Zeus, Jupiter, Vishnu, Shiva, and so on, then I suppose, if there are lesser gods such as these, they might be capable of falling, though I can't imagine what that would look like. If Helen of Troy is the punishment for Zeus' dalliance with the mortal Leda -- well, I'm not gonna criticize him. So, ignoring the gods for a moment, could God fall? And what would that fall look like? And why are we busting our butts now trying to be good if this is a struggle that is infinite in duration? Will we really be in jeopardy forever, and ever, and ever?
Five Solas Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 These were the early days, before Sub Pop became the large multinational entertainment conglomerate that everyone takes for granted. Now, as I gaze at the unfortunate below, I realize that my penthouse view is the result of honest work and impeccable media exploitation. <Cough> As a god, I have nowhere to go but down. --Bruce Pavitt, co-founder of Sub Pop Records, Seattle, 1990 Some reason that last bit has always stuck in my head (and you called it to mind). From a Christian perspective (not to be confused with Pavitt's expression, above), the question is long answered. God entered human history as a man (the Incarnation), defeated Satan, sin and death. "It is finished" as Christ said from the cross (John 19:30). The story continues, but the final outcome is not in doubt. Mormonism (from my perspective) has a different view of the Incarnation, the person and work of Christ, and the nature of gods and god-head. So this could be an interesting thread. If the LDS Heavenly Father et al., couldn't fall--well, why couldn't they? --Erik
bluebell Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 15 minutes ago, Five Solas said: These were the early days, before Sub Pop became the large multinational entertainment conglomerate that everyone takes for granted. Now, as I gaze at the unfortunate below, I realize that my penthouse view is the result of honest work and impeccable media exploitation. <Cough> As a god, I have nowhere to go but down. --Bruce Pavitt, co-founder of Sub Pop Records, Seattle, 1990 Some reason that last bit has always stuck in my head (and you called it to mind). From a Christian perspective (not to be confused with Pavitt's expression, above), the question is long answered. God entered human history as a man (the Incarnation), defeated Satan, sin and death. "It is finished" as Christ said from the cross (John 19:30). The story continues, but the final outcome is not in doubt. Mormonism (from my perspective) has a different view of the Incarnation, the person and work of Christ, and the nature of gods and god-head. So this could be an interesting thread. If the LDS Heavenly Father et al., couldn't fall--well, why couldn't they? --Erik Do you believe, before Christ said it is finished, that Christ could have failed or fallen?
Five Solas Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 6 minutes ago, bluebell said: Do you believe, before Christ said it is finished, that Christ could have failed or fallen? Yes, in the sense Jesus had a choice. He wasn't a machine, he could have chosen to respond differently. That He chose to submit to the Father's will, reveals Jesus's character, tells us something of the nature of God. Make sense? --Erik 1
bluebell Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 41 minutes ago, Five Solas said: Yes, in the sense Jesus had a choice. He wasn't a machine, he could have chosen to respond differently. That He chose to submit to the Father's will, reveals Jesus's character, tells us something of the nature of God. Make sense? --Erik Yes, and it's the same way that I, being LDS, view whether or not God can fall. He could theoretically, but He won't because of who He is. 4
smac97 Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) My thoughts: Perfection, as an attribute of God, includes total mastery of will/agency. Total mastery of will means total/perfect compliance with eternal laws. Total compliance with eternal laws puts the surety of God's unchanging/unending righteousness (and, hence, His status as "God") on par with those eternal laws. So 2 + 2 (in an interval scale) will always equal 4. Always. No question. No debate. No hypothetical scenario where 2 + 2 ≠ 4 (again, on an interval scale). God's righteousness is likewise definite. Enduring. Everlasting. Quite a comforting thought, that. Both Mormon and Alma made rhetorical statements about conditions under which "{God} would cease to be God." However, both of them immediately clarify that these are purely rhetorical/hypothetical statements, not predictions or declarations that God might "cease to be God." See, e.g., Mormons 9:15, 19 (emphases added): 15 And now, O all ye that have imagined up unto yourselves a god who can do no miracles, I would ask of you, have all these things passed, of which I have spoken? Has the end come yet? Behold I say unto you, Nay; and God has not ceased to be a God of miracles. ... 19 And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles. And Alma 42 (emphasis added): 13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God. ... 22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God. 23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice. See also the numerous scriptures regarding the attributes of God, including: the Lord changes not: 3 Ne. 24:6 . (Moro. 8:18.) God is same yesterday, today, forever: Morm. 9:9 . no variableness or shadow of changing in God: Morm. 9:9–10 . God is same yesterday, today, forever: D&C 20:12 . God is infinite, eternal, unchangeable, from everlasting to everlasting: D&C 20:17 . So, to answer your question ("Could God fall?"), we have to look at the lexical limitations we face, such as what do we mean by "could." But at the end of it all, and based on the above scriptures, my answer is, essentially . . . God will never fall. Thanks, -Smac Edited November 17, 2016 by smac97 3
Jeanne Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 6 hours ago, Mark Beesley said: This place doesn't change much when you go away for a while and come back. It is nice to have some stability, particularly now. Anyway I was doing some reading in the Book of Enoch -- I mean really, how many times can you read the Book of Mormon? -- and came across a comment on a member's blog, where another member wrote in a comment thread that we believe a god can fall. I kinda gasped and read on because what I was really interested in angels having sex with mortals - - and everything that entails. There were a few more zingers in the thread, but the one about a falling god was the most . . . well, it was the most. I have been a member of the Church my entire life, well except for the years when I wasn't. I went to Primary, Sunday School, Priesthood meetings, and MIA religiously. I went on a mission, attended the Y but graduated from the U, and married in the temple. I have read the complete Standard Works cover-to-cover, and one of them the same number of times I have read the Lord of the Rings. Nowhere in my experience has the concept of the possibility that a god could fall dawned on me. As I thought about it, I suspect this idea grows from the doctrine of agency, or free-will. Since a god presumably has the agency given us, then a god could also fall by the improper use of her agency. (A male god would never jeopardize that sweet gig!) No. I don't think so. But let me qualify that. If we were talking strictly about gods, other than Gods with the qualities of Ellohim and Jehovah, like Zeus, Jupiter, Vishnu, Shiva, and so on, then I suppose, if there are lesser gods such as these, they might be capable of falling, though I can't imagine what that would look like. If Helen of Troy is the punishment for Zeus' dalliance with the mortal Leda -- well, I'm not gonna criticize him. So, ignoring the gods for a moment, could God fall? And what would that fall look like? And why are we busting our butts now trying to be good if this is a struggle that is infinite in duration? Will we really be in jeopardy forever, and ever, and ever? This is so interesting. A concept I had never thought of...and yet, the same qualifications for becoming Gods..have the same qualifications to fail...how else would God grow? Surely He doesn't deem to learn or not progress?
JLHPROF Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 As long as agency exists then falling is a possibility. Scripture names some situations where "God would cease to be God". But realistically? Possible doesn't mean likely, or even infinitesimally probable. 1
thesometimesaint Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Yes, and it's the same way that I, being LDS, view whether or not God can fall. He could theoretically, but He won't because of who He is. Agreed.
Buckeye Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 What complicates things is the LDS doctrine holds for many gods - even infinite ones, including potentially ourselves. So while it is conceivable that a handful of gods - say Jehovah and Elohim (heck, even throw in Michael) - theoretically could fall, but do not fall because they correctly choose, if we take the numbers of gods towards infinity then statistics requires that at some point some of the gods are going fall if there is real agency. This troubles me. 1
Buckeye Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 56 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: As long as agency exists then falling is a possibility. Scripture names some situations where "God would cease to be God". But realistically? Possible doesn't mean likely, or even infinitesimally probable. Anything that is possible, and is tried an infinite number of times, eventually happens.
bluebell Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 12 minutes ago, Buckeye said: What complicates things is the LDS doctrine holds for many gods - even infinite ones, including potentially ourselves. So while it is conceivable that a handful of gods - say Jehovah and Elohim (heck, even throw in Michael) - theoretically could fall, but do not fall because they correctly choose, if we take the numbers of gods towards infinity then statistics requires that at some point some of the gods are going fall if there is real agency. This troubles me. Does statistics support the existence of perfection? Honest question because i've never studied it.
Oliver_Cowdery Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) If God fell yesterday how would you know it? What evidence would there be of the event. If God stopped operating as God would anythings change at all? Would priesthood blessing stop working with a success rate better than chance? Would people still receive answers to their prayers with a success rate better than chance? Edited November 17, 2016 by Oliver_Cowdery
Darren10 Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 2 hours ago, bluebell said: Yes, and it's the same way that I, being LDS, view whether or not God can fall. He could theoretically, but He won't because of who He is. Exactly!
Darren10 Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) I think Mormon addressed this type of hypothetical question Mark Beesley asks but answers it with absolute reality. Mormon 9:19 reads - Quote 19 And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles. God can cease to be a God of miracles (hypothetically) but (in reality) does not nor ever will. I think the same applies of whether or not God can fall. He could but never will. Edited November 17, 2016 by Darren10 1
bluebell Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 6 minutes ago, Oliver_Cowdery said: If God fell yesterday how would you know it? What evidence would there be of the event. If God stopped operating as God would anythings change at all? Would priesthood blessing stop working with a success rate better than chance? Would people still receive answers to their prayers with a success rate better than chance? Well, it's the power of God that keeps the universe working how it does, that holds the planets in their places, etc. So I would say that yes, if God ceased to be God we would immediately know it. 1
Oliver_Cowdery Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, bluebell said: Yes, and it's the same way that I, being LDS, view whether or not God can fall. He could theoretically, but He won't because of who He is. This seems kind of circular. God won't fall because he is God? If God did fall wouldn't we adjust our understanding of who we perceive that he is? Edited November 17, 2016 by Oliver_Cowdery
Jeanne Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 2 hours ago, ERMD said: I say no. It is not in His nature. He Is. But He was as you are now....should you become a God...and progression continues, can you say that you would not make any mistake? How does one learn and grow? 1
ERMD Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 1 minute ago, Jeanne said: But He was as you are now....should you become a God...and progression continues, can you say that you would not make any mistake? How does one learn and grow? If we become as He Is, then we will be as He Is. If it is His nature to not sin or make any mistake, then that will be our nature as well. The Atonement is infinite and eternal. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect," means many things. 1
Oliver_Cowdery Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, bluebell said: Well, it's the power of God that keeps the universe working how it does, that holds the planets in their places, etc. So I would say that yes, if God ceased to be God we would immediately know it. How could you know that? Gravity might just keep doing its thing without a God. If God stopped being God our reality might continue to look exactly as it does now. Whatever the case, it's an interesting thought experiment. Edited November 17, 2016 by Oliver_Cowdery
bluebell Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 Just now, Oliver_Cowdery said: This seems kind of circular. God can't fall because he is God? If God did fall wouldn't we adjust our understanding of who we perceive that he is? God can't fall because His character is such that He would never choose sin. I'm not sure how that is circular reasoning. It's essentially the same as saying "so-and-so never lies because they believe in being perfectly honest in all things." When the true character of someone is known, we can reasonably predict what choices he or she will make. If that is true for sinful imperfect people, the predictability goes up astronomically with someone who 1) never changes and 2) is perfect. 1
Oliver_Cowdery Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, bluebell said: If that is true for sinful imperfect people, the predictability goes up astronomically with someone who 1) never changes and 2) is perfect. If God is capable of making choices than he could simple choose to change and choose something less than perfect. I don't see how we can eliminate that possibility. 1
Jeanne Posted November 17, 2016 Posted November 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, ERMD said: If we become as He Is, then we will be as He Is. If it is His nature to not sin or make any mistake, then that will be our nature as well. The Atonement is infinite and eternal. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect," means many things. Perhaps I am looking at failure a different way. Not a sin..just a mistake. A calculative mistake made in part by the humans who are created..a face palm in choosing a prophet and having him pre-ordained for a restoration..that did not bring about the very best in said restoration. I am not talking about God as sinning...but learning by mistakes.
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