Gordon b hinkley Manuel

[consiglieri]

5 hours ago, waveslider said:

We do have plenty of scripture study at church. Nearly one third of the meeting time on Sunday, in Gospel Doctrine class, is focusing on what's in scripture. I don't know about all other faiths, but the ones that I have attended feature one or two verses of scripture per sermon, which hardly allows us to know what is included in all the scriptures, only just one very tiny little bit at a time.

You misunderstand.

Gospel Doctrine class is not about studying the scriptures.

It is about using the scriptures as a pretext to study correlated Mormonism.

There is a difference.

[waveslider]

7 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

You misunderstand.

Gospel Doctrine class is not about studying the scriptures.

It is about using the scriptures as a pretext to study correlated Mormonism.

There is a difference.

That's like saying that studying the scriptures on the pretext of following Christ back into God's presence isn't studying scriptures.

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

You misunderstand.

Gospel Doctrine class is not about studying the scriptures.

It is about using the scriptures as a pretext to study correlated Mormonism.

There is a difference.

Maybe instead of proof texting the Mormon doctrines using random quotes from the prophets we could actually study the teachings of the prophets.

I vote for using TPJS next.  Actually study his teachings instead of a couple of sentences he might have said referencing a particular topic.

[rongo]

The Church is too illiterate for that (all-around, not just scriptures. Hardly anybody reads any more, and most lack the patience to sit down and read a book more meaty than a few quotes per topic). 

I'm dismayed by the slide in CES religion classes, which dovetails with the "Come Follow Me" trend. No more studying the whole book in BYU religion classes (first half of the BoM, second half of the BoM, etc.) in lieu of studying "doctrines" (faith in the scriptures, etc.). Recently, lds.org announced that scripture mastery is being replaced in seminary by "doctrinal mastery." Kids are no longer expected to know where to find things, just the 12 "Come Follow Me" doctrines in general.

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

The Church is too illiterate for that (all-around, not just scriptures. Hardly anybody reads any more, and most lack the patience to sit down and read a book more meaty than a few quotes per topic).

That is so sad.  A man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge and the glory of God is intelligence.
There are many members who may receive a far lesser salvation/glory than they hope for because they can't be bothered to put gospel study first.
 

Quote

I'm dismayed by the slide in CES religion classes, which dovetails with the "Come Follow Me" trend. No more studying the whole book in BYU religion classes (first half of the BoM, second half of the BoM, etc.) in lieu of studying "doctrines" (faith in the scriptures, etc.). Recently, lds.org announced that scripture mastery is being replaced in seminary by "doctrinal mastery." Kids are no longer expected to know where to find things, just the 12 "Come Follow Me" doctrines in general.

The first principles lead us to the waters of baptism.  There's meant to be more to learn AFTER we accept the gospel.  Instead all we bother with is the atonement and repentance.  That will get us into the Celestial Kingdom.  But oh wait, we've already been baptized and received that admittance.
It's like the kid with the High School diploma taking the GED a million times instead of moving on to University.

Edited August 11, 2016 by JLHPROF

[waveslider]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

That is so sad.  A man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge and the glory of God is intelligence.
There are many members who may receive a far lesser salvation/glory than they hope for because they can't be bothered to put gospel study first.
 

The first principles lead us to the waters of baptism.  There's meant to be more to learn AFTER we accept the gospel.  Instead all we bother with is the atonement and repentance.  That will get us into the Celestial Kingdom.  But oh wait, we've already been baptized and received that admittance.
It's like the kid with the High School diploma taking the GED a million times instead of moving on to University.

Perhaps it's more like the kid who couldn't get a high school diploma and keeps taking the GED a million times in order to finally be able to move on to University, but still doesn't grasp an in depth understanding of the basics enough to apply them toward an expanse of a higher learning. Knowledge needs to build upon a strong foundation before it can become wisdom, no matter how much extra is learned. The application of knowledge matters much more than just an accumulation of it. Line upon line, precept on precept is how it is meant to grow.

Imagine how much more we would all learn if we were each, personally sitting next to the Savior himself, and whispering back and forth with the Savior, able to ask questions and receive answers on a personal basis, even though it is all just the same old basics that are being taught by the teacher, or spoken by the speaker. Utilizing the Gift of the Holy Ghost, can be exactly that same type of thing for each and everyone of us.

It is sad to see people think they aren't going to learn anything new, because they don't expect to receive personal revelation, and only complain that it is just another of many of the same old boring lessons already previously learned, thus choosing to not even try to get in tune with the Holy Spirit of Truth. On the surface the basics seem shallow and weak, but with the help of the Spirit there is no end to how deep these things truly are. If anyone thinks otherwise, then I challenge them to tell, in detail, exactly how the atonement actually works, in such a way that there is no need for speculation on how the mechanics of the suffering of a God fixes the abomination of sin, completely and totally. The atonement is as basic as any teaching in the church gets, yet none of us actually truly even comprehends it's true nature 100 percent, no matter how many hundreds and hundreds, or even thousands, of times we are taught about it.

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Recently, lds.org announced that scripture mastery is being replaced in seminary by "doctrinal mastery." Kids are no longer expected to know where to find things, just the 12 "Come Follow Me" doctrines in general.

The kids are also now expected to actually read the scriptures, or they don't even get to graduate from Seminary at all. I'll be willing to bet that they will better be able to find things after reading the scriptures, and understanding the actual context in which the scripture mastery scriptures are coming from a lot better than us who only had the scripture mastery to remember, yet didn't have any need to actually read the scriptures for themselves. Let alone how much more they will learn to get in tune with the Spirit as the read these things. The Spirit will help them find those things that they have learned about while reading. At least if you believe what Christ said: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall... ...bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
John 14:26

7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The Church is too illiterate for that (all-around, not just scriptures. Hardly anybody reads any more, and most lack the patience to sit down and read a book more meaty than a few quotes per topic).

I don't find that to be the case in my ward. Of course there are a good amount of people who don't read, but then again I find that when I am discussing the latest books I have read, many people have already read some of them, or are in the process of reading some of them, or are very interested in reading them next, based on what I'm saying about them, and vice a versa. I have found some of my favorite books through my fellow church members. There are still plenty of people who read around here anyway. It really would be a sad thing if the church really is too illiterate, but I haven't seen that to be the case at all. I find that those who don't read are in fact the minority.

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, waveslider said:

I don't find that to be the case in my ward. Of course there are a good amount of people who don't read, but then again I find that when I am discussing the latest books I have read, many people have already read some of them, or are in the process of reading some of them, or are very interested in reading them next, based on what I'm saying about them, and vice a versa. I have found some of my favorite books through my fellow church members. There are still plenty of people who read around here anyway. It really would be a sad thing if the church really is too illiterate, but I haven't seen that to be the case at all. I find that those who don't read are in fact the minority.

It's not all about books.  My recent attendance at the MHA showed me that there are many incredibly well read scholars who are always learning and never coming to a knowledge of truth.  It is not academia that I esteem.

A person doesn't have to have read the latest scholarly works.  I am not convinced that will lead to a better salvation, although the Lord did admonish us to seek learning out of the best books, and then as you discussed, Joseph taught us that we should learn from God directly.

But the point is as many have observed there is a large segment of the membership that simply don't take the time to study the doctrines of the gospel beyond the very primary way we do in our Church meetings.  I have many family members in that category.  And it is sad.  And I think we see evidence of this in the increase in members who are becoming more evangelical in their focus, wanting the only things focused on and discussed to be Christ and the atonement.  Not even Christ wanted that to be our only focus.

[consiglieri]

13 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Maybe instead of proof texting the Mormon doctrines using random quotes from the prophets we could actually study the teachings of the prophets.

I vote for using TPJS next.  Actually study his teachings instead of a couple of sentences he might have said referencing a particular topic.

I wholeheartedly agree that would be a step in the right direction.

Although upon closer examination I find that Joseph Fielding Smith was not above editing out of TPJS things he found distasteful.

[consiglieri]

27 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

But the point is as many have observed there is a large segment of the membership that simply don't take the time to study the doctrines of the gospel beyond the very primary way we do in our Church meetings.  I have many family members in that category.  And it is sad.  And I think we see evidence of this in the increase in members who are becoming more evangelical in their focus, wanting the only things focused on and discussed to be Christ and the atonement.  Not even Christ wanted that to be our only focus.

I recognize this is a trend going on in society in general, but may I suggest that one of the reasons we see people so uninterested in studying the gospel is precisely because the correlated Church manuals lead them to believe there is nothing to learn?

[BlueDreams]

On August 9, 2016 at 6:08 PM, bluebell said:

I recently attended a new teacher training class (that's not what it's called but i don't remember the exact name-they are supposed to happen once a month) and the message our instructor brought back to us from the regional meeting he attended where this was introduced was that the church wants to completely change the focus of learning in the church.

Instead of the focus of worship and conversion happening at church, they want it to happen in the home.  The home is to become the central place of learning about the gospel and becoming converted.  Rather than the home supporting what is taught at church and the conversion process as it happens by going to church, they want the church to support what is taught at home and the conversion process as it happens in the family.  

We didn't get into how that change is suppose to happen, but it will be interesting to see how it all unfolds.

That worries me, honestly. I've known some great families who this model would work, but my family was not/is not one of them. And the dynamics would make it unlikely for that to happen. I would worry if the focus was too emphasized it could foster a disparity in what's taught or understood. And families that are more dysfunctional wouldn't get as much. But I assume the hutch is/would think of that...I hope...

 

 

wih luv,

BD

[Duncan]

This may be helpful

"Our Church magazines, lesson manuals, and videotapes will never supply everything that a person needs to solve a problem, prepare a lesson, or find a new direction to life. These resources will remain helpful, but all of them together will never be as complete or as powerful as the scriptures. And incidentally, let us not rely too heavily upon what others tell us the Lord is saying in the standard works. Let us find out by going directly to those sacred pages ourselves. " Elder Hugh W. Pinnock, April 1989 GC

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1989/04/now-is-the-time?lang=eng

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

I wholeheartedly agree that would be a step in the right direction.

Although upon closer examination I find that Joseph Fielding Smith was not above editing out of TPJS things he found distasteful.

Yes he did.  Including that great quote on a man not being bad because he erred in doctrine and not calling men to disciplinary councils for differing in doctrine.

But the doctrine in there is still leaps and bounds ahead of anything in the manuals.
Primarily because it has more depth and detail.
I mean, Joseph taught that there are three orders of priesthood.  I bet if you asked any gospel doctrine class to name the three orders of priesthood you'd get some pretty strange looks and maybe 1/10 (being optimistic) would know them.  And fewer still would know what falls under each one.

If we don't even understand priesthood how can we ever hope to magnify our priesthood callings.
 

Quote

I recognize this is a trend going on in society in general, but may I suggest that one of the reasons we see people so uninterested in studying the gospel is precisely because the correlated Church manuals lead them to believe there is nothing to learn?

It's true.  It has led to the major increase in non-denominational churches (where no doctrine really matters).
I have a hard time sympathizing with members who think the manual contains everything.  But I think the issue isn't that they think it contains everything.  Just that they think it contains everything necessary.  And that is the real problem.

Edited August 11, 2016 by JLHPROF

[Rivers]

The manual and church lessons should motivate members to do their own searching, pondering, and praying.  Terryl Givens has spoken at length about the importance of spiritual independence and finding our own watering holes.

[The Nehor]

I am not the biggest fan of the manuals but I find them better and more interesting then the droning cries about how bad the curriculum is.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am not the biggest fan of the manuals but I find them better and more interesting then the droning cries about how bad the curriculum is.

Never mind...

Edited August 11, 2016 by JLHPROF

[rongo]

11 hours ago, waveslider said:

The kids are also now expected to actually read the scriptures, or they don't even get to graduate from Seminary at all.

I don't think that's true. If you think that all seminary graduates must read the Old Testament during OT year, or they won't get credit or graduate, I have beachfront property in Kansas I want to sell you. There are different types of diplomas and honors (including specifically for reading the book of scripture of the year), and partial ones for those who didn't attend every year.

I'll be willing to bet that they will better be able to find things after reading the scriptures, and understanding the actual context in which the scripture mastery scriptures are coming from a lot better than us who only had the scripture mastery to remember, yet didn't have any need to actually read the scriptures for themselves.

I'll take that bet. Both of us agree that there should be an intrinsic motivation to read scriptures, no matter what the seminary program is, but the programs set a lowest-common denominator minimum standard. Which is now no longer there. One would think that those who read the scriptures know where to find things, but one would be wrong. Our youth are abysmal at knowing their way around scriptures. When I taught "Come Follow Me" for two years (two different wards), I did whole lessons where I taught students how to use the topical guide and index. These students had no internal pictures of how the scriptures are put together or how they relate --- to them, each book is in isolation compared to the others. A large part of the problem is that most youth now only read the "scriptures" on LDS tools, not paper copies. They are completely unable to find anything in a paper set of scriptures, and they know less and less of the stories in the scriptures, even if they can't cite passages. 

And don't get me started on the new assessments in seminary. They give an appearance of rigor, but nobody fails it, and a lot of it is subjective (write your testimony of this or that principle).

[waveslider]

40 minutes ago, rongo said:

I don't think that's true. If you think that all seminary graduates must read the Old Testament during OT year, or they won't get credit or graduate, I have beachfront property in Kansas I want to sell you. There are different types of diplomas and honors (including specifically for reading the book of scripture of the year), and partial ones for those who didn't attend every year.

Perhaps you should look into the property I have for sale about a mile North of where I live, on the North shore of Oahu, if you believe this. Here is a quote right out of the new seminary requirements as of 2014, https://www.lds.org/church/news/new-seminary-graduation-requirements-expect-more-from-youth?lang=eng

" Among the changes are two major elements. In addition to receiving credit based on attendance and an ecclesiastic endorsement from a branch president or bishop, seminary students will be required to read the book of scripture they are studying for the year, as well as pass course-learning assessments."

[rongo]

Oh, I've been giving the ecclesiastical interviews, so I know about that.

If they really are requiring them to read the entire book of scripture being studied that year, then that is a good thing. 

I just asked my son about this. He was one of only two students in my stake to receive seminary honors this last year. He says that, while it is technically a requirement to pass the year of seminary, he estimates that only about a quarter of seminary students he knows actually do read the entire book of scripture for that year. 

I do know that this year they started giving certificates of attendance for students who attended seminary but didn't pass. And in no cases was it because of the test . . .

[Doctrine 612]

Quote JLHPROF
I mean, Joseph taught that there are three orders of priesthood.  I bet if you asked any gospel doctrine class to name the three orders of priesthood you'd get some pretty strange looks and maybe 1/10 (being optimistic) would know them.  And fewer still would know what falls under each one.
 

Patriarchal 

Melchizedek

aaronic

Edited August 12, 2016 by Doctrine 612

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Doctrine 612 said:

I mean, Joseph taught that there are three orders of priesthood.  I bet if you asked any gospel doctrine class to name the three orders of priesthood you'd get some pretty strange looks and maybe 1/10 (being optimistic) would know them.  And fewer still would know what falls under each one.
 

Patriarchal

Melchizedek

aaronic

Good.  Now try it in your Gospel Doctrine class.
Congratulations on being in the 10%.

[Sky]

On August 10, 2016 at 8:02 PM, JLHPROF said:

That is so sad.  A man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge and the glory of God is intelligence.
There are many members who may receive a far lesser salvation/glory than they hope for because they can't be bothered to put gospel study first.
 

The first principles lead us to the waters of baptism.  There's meant to be more to learn AFTER we accept the gospel.  Instead all we bother with is the atonement and repentance.  That will get us into the Celestial Kingdom.  But oh wait, we've already been baptized and received that admittance.
It's like the kid with the High School diploma taking the GED a million times instead of moving on to University.

If discussing the virtues of plural marriage is one of the things you had in mind, it's not gonna happen…  

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, Sky said:

If discussing the virtues of plural marriage is one of the things you had in mind, it's not gonna happen…  

Very funny.
The doctrines contained in D&C 132, the promises of the marriage covenant, the Abrahamic covenant, and the teachings of the prophets on eternal marriage would suffice.

Just took a quick read through the new President Hinckley manual lesson on marriage.
Same old same old. 

Start with a sweet story about President Hinckley and his wife.  Check!
Throw in the SAME teachings as contained in every single previous "Teachings of the Presidents" manual.  Check!
Quote the exact same scripture's as last year manual.  Check!

Check out this amazing new piece of information sure to spark great learning, progression, and an increase in knowledge:

• In the temple, a husband and wife can be sealed together for all eternity.

  [The] temples … offer blessings that are had nowhere else. All that occurs in these sacred houses has to do with the eternal nature of man. Here, husbands and wives and children are sealed together as families for all eternity. Marriage is not “until death do ye part.” It is forever, if the parties live worthy of the blessing.

Now let's look at the teachings of President Hunter:

• In the temple we receive the highest ordinance available to men and women, the sealing of husbands and wives together for eternity. We hope our young people will settle for nothing less than a temple marriage.  (Not even true by the way).

Or Joseph F. Smith

• It is a glorious privilege to be permitted to go into a Temple of God to be united as man and wife in the bonds of holy wedlock for time and all eternity by the authority of the Holy Priesthood, which is the power of God, for they who are thus joined together “no man can put asunder,” for God hath joined them.

Or Harold B. Lee

• Those who make themselves worthy and enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in the temple for time and all eternity will be laying the first cornerstone for an eternal family home in the celestial kingdom that will last forever. Their reward is to have “glory added upon their heads forever and forever”

Or Ezra Taft Benson

• The Lord’s desire is for every adult man and woman in the Church to receive the ordinances of the temple. This means that they are to be endowed and that all married couples are to be sealed for eternity. These ordinances provide a protection and blessing to their marriage.

These aren't bad.  But is it any wonder there is so little progression.  Each of these quotes from the manual contains a possible tangential topic (in bold) that could lead to a much deeper discussion.  But then we wouldn't get through the lesson would we.

 

 

[Sky]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Very funny.
The doctrines contained in D&C 132, the promises of the marriage covenant, the Abrahamic covenant, and the teachings of the prophets on eternal marriage would suffice.

Just took a quick read through the new President Hinckley manual lesson on marriage.
Same old same old. 

Start with a sweet story about President Hinckley and his wife.  Check!
Throw in the SAME teachings as contained in every single previous "Teachings of the Presidents" manual.  Check!
Quote the exact same scripture's as last year manual.  Check!

Check out this amazing new piece of information sure to spark great learning, progression, and an increase in knowledge:

• In the temple, a husband and wife can be sealed together for all eternity.

  [The] temples … offer blessings that are had nowhere else. All that occurs in these sacred houses has to do with the eternal nature of man. Here, husbands and wives and children are sealed together as families for all eternity. Marriage is not “until death do ye part.” It is forever, if the parties live worthy of the blessing.

Now let's look at the teachings of President Hunter:

• In the temple we receive the highest ordinance available to men and women, the sealing of husbands and wives together for eternity. We hope our young people will settle for nothing less than a temple marriage.  (Not even true by the way).

Or Joseph F. Smith

• It is a glorious privilege to be permitted to go into a Temple of God to be united as man and wife in the bonds of holy wedlock for time and all eternity by the authority of the Holy Priesthood, which is the power of God, for they who are thus joined together “no man can put asunder,” for God hath joined them.

Or Harold B. Lee

• Those who make themselves worthy and enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in the temple for time and all eternity will be laying the first cornerstone for an eternal family home in the celestial kingdom that will last forever. Their reward is to have “glory added upon their heads forever and forever”

Or Ezra Taft Benson

• The Lord’s desire is for every adult man and woman in the Church to receive the ordinances of the temple. This means that they are to be endowed and that all married couples are to be sealed for eternity. These ordinances provide a protection and blessing to their marriage.

These aren't bad.  But is it any wonder there is so little progression.  Each of these quotes from the manual contains a possible tangential topic (in bold) that could lead to a much deeper discussion.  But then we wouldn't get through the lesson would we.

 

 

 

Sounds like you have issues with the lesson manuals…almost as if you hold them in contempt for teaching the same stuff.  I get the impression that you think you know more than the rest of us.  And that you think the Church isn't living up to its full potential right now.      

There is good reason to keep the doctrine pure, basic, and as simple as possible.  Some might call that "watered down."  But on the other hand, we see what happens here on these boards when we get so deep that we miss the mark - and disputations and divisions arise.     

[JLHPROF]

7 hours ago, Sky said:

Sounds like you have issues with the lesson manuals…almost as if you hold them in contempt for teaching the same stuff.  

Not contempt.  Just recognizing one cause for the topic we've been discussing.

I get the impression that you think you know more than the rest of us.  

Nope.  You do like to make this personal don't you?  I'm hardly the first member to note a lack of studying among the general membership.

And that you think the Church isn't living up to its full potential right now.      

Ok, this I agree with.  But are any of us living up to our full potential?

There is good reason to keep the doctrine pure, basic, and as simple as possible.  Some might call that "watered down."  But on the other hand, we see what happens here on these boards when we get so deep that we miss the mark - and disputations and divisions arise.

Except that is not a correct principle.  Milk for the babes, meat for the adults.  Stronger doctrines for the faithful.  First principles for the mission field.
And we wonder why people abandon ship when a new doctrine they've never had explained pops up.
 

 

[rongo]

Church members are crying for more, and they like hearing from those who are well-read and well-studied. I have been approached multiple times about forming study groups, but I have explained to these members why the Church discourages home study groups outside of priesthood oversight. I have recommended reading, but the people wanting study groups hardly ever do it. They prefer to outsource it to others and get the Cliffs Notes versions from them.