Sanpitch Posted August 4, 2016 Posted August 4, 2016 Having a discussion about the Handcart companies and people in that time period as to why they felt they had to get to Zion. I think I remember reading their histories that they were taught by the missionaries, mainly England, they had to get to Zion to be saved. Does anyone have confirmation or comments on that.
Jeanne Posted August 4, 2016 Posted August 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: Having a discussion about the Handcart companies and people in that time period as to why they felt they had to get to Zion. I think I remember reading their histories that they were taught by the missionaries, mainly England, they had to get to Zion to be saved. Does anyone have confirmation or comments on that. I hope you can get some answers. My great great grandparents were children in the handcart company coming from Wales. I wish that they had waited..rough going as BY was unable to get oxen to help out..(not sure about this)..so somebody answer!
Tacenda Posted August 4, 2016 Posted August 4, 2016 https://history.lds.org/article/pioneer-story-the-convert-immigrants-?lang=eng This has quite a bit of information and some journal entries that may help.
JLHPROF Posted August 4, 2016 Posted August 4, 2016 40 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: Having a discussion about the Handcart companies and people in that time period as to why they felt they had to get to Zion. I think I remember reading their histories that they were taught by the missionaries, mainly England, they had to get to Zion to be saved. Does anyone have confirmation or comments on that. In the early days there were even policies against giving Temple ordinances to those who refused to gather to Zion. Without those ordinances they actually did need to get to Zion to receive the saving ordinances.
ksfisher Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 19 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: In the early days there were even policies against giving Temple ordinances to those who refused to gather to Zion. Without those ordinances they actually did need to get to Zion to receive the saving ordinances. i.e. temple recommends were only issued if you lived within the bounderies of a stake.
Sanpitch Posted August 5, 2016 Author Posted August 5, 2016 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: I hope you can get some answers. My great great grandparents were children in the handcart company coming from Wales. I wish that they had waited..rough going as BY was unable to get oxen to help out..(not sure about this)..so somebody answer! Your ancestors were apparently in the Willies or Martin companies. Mine (Mellors) were in the Martin company and knew your people if they were in that party. They all suffered greatly, that's why I wonder why they felt they had to get to Zion. 1
Maestrophil Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 Mine were in the Willie... My G. G. Grandpa (who was featured in last month's Ensign) passed away on the journey, and he made it clear he thought Zion was a better place to raise his family in righteousness. 1
Okrahomer Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Sanpitch said: Having a discussion about the Handcart companies and people in that time period as to why they felt they had to get to Zion. I think I remember reading their histories that they were taught by the missionaries, mainly England, they had to get to Zion to be saved. Does anyone have confirmation or comments on that. I think what you are trying to remember is the doctrine of “Gathering”, “the Gathering of Israel” or “the Gathering of the House of Israel.” (See Jeremiah 23:3—“I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them.”) This doctrine is still taught and believed in the LDS Church. From the Gospel Principles Manual: “He [God} has important reasons for gathering His children. He gathers them so they can learn the teachings of the gospel and prepare themselves to meet the Savior when He comes again. He gathers them so they will build temples and perform sacred ordinances for ancestors who have died without having this opportunity. He gathers them so they can strengthen one another and be unified in the gospel, finding protection from unrighteous influences in the world. He also gathers them so they can prepare themselves to share the gospel with others.” (https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-42-the-gathering-of-the-house-of-israel?lang=eng) While the necessity of “gathering to Zion” was/is certainly taught, the act of “gathering” itself was/is not regarded as a “saving” principle or ordinance—like faith, repentance, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Rather it was/is viewed as a means of spiritual protection. But since the stakes of Zion are now established throughout the world, one no longer needs to come all the way to Utah to find this sort of protection. Edited August 5, 2016 by Okrahomer 2
Jeanne Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 1 hour ago, Sanpitch said: Your ancestors were apparently in the Willies or Martin companies. Mine (Mellors) were in the Martin company and knew your people if they were in that party. They all suffered greatly, that's why I wonder why they felt they had to get to Zion. My grandmother often told me stories her grandmother told her...their feet..the sores..and the hunger. This is why I am mormon..even when I am not.
Okrahomer Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 30 minutes ago, Maestrophil said: Mine were in the Willie... My G. G. Grandpa (who was featured in last month's Ensign) passed away on the journey, and he made it clear he thought Zion was a better place to raise his family in righteousness. My GG Grandmother left England in 1856 and came to Utah without incident in the first handcart company (Ellsworth company.) She was a widow with 6 small children (one of whom was my G Grandmother.) 1
James Tunney Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 3 hours ago, Sanpitch said: Your ancestors were apparently in the Willies or Martin companies. Mine (Mellors) were in the Martin company and knew your people if they were in that party. They all suffered greatly, that's why I wonder why they felt they had to get to Zion. My ancestors suffered along with yours in the Martin company. Here's to them and whatever their reasons were for going west!
Coreyb Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 Several revelations commanded saints to gather to Zion and be saved as the world would soon be destroyed
sunstoned Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 Back then the idea of a theocracy was very strong. BY was a true follower of JS and bought into the whole king of the world, council of 50 thing. He had himself crowned. He worked to expand the borders of Deseret, and even tried to establish a sea port. His reach got as far as San Bernardino California. He sent families on missions to Southern Utah to start mining and farming concerns. Often times these efforts were not properly funded and people suffered. BY didn't. He lived in a mansion in SLC, and had a winder home in St. George. All paid for by the church. Once the war with Mexico was decided and what we now call the Western United States, including Utah, was secured from Mexico, BY had to change his strategy. Because of the U.S. government, his idea of an independent Kingdom was no longer possible. So he had to resign himself to work within the framework of the United States government. Of course Johnson's Army helped persuade him of this. They didn't march to Utah to put down polygamy. After the territory of Utah was established, BY encouraged migration to Utah by any means possible as it meant more people, more votes and more power. This was his priority, even if it meant pushing heavy carts 1500 miles with the hope of out running the winder snows. He gave women the vote as it would double the voting power within the territory. They could vote, but hold no real office in his church or the territorial government. You wouldn't recognize it today, but the animosity between the church and the government ran deep for many years. The oath of vengeance against the U.S. wasn't taken out of the temple ceremony until the 1930's. 2
Tacenda Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) 11 hours ago, Jeanne said: My grandmother often told me stories her grandmother told her...their feet..the sores..and the hunger. This is why I am mormon..even when I am not. And no one can ever take that away Jeanne. My ancestor was in the Martin handcart company and from England. I have a book about their trek and haven't finished it. I should send it to Sanpitch when I finish, since we have the same ancestors. It was given to me by someone in my neighborhood who found out where my parents were from and the last name Mellor, and her dad grew up nearby and knew the person that wrote or put together the book. Shame on me for not having finished it. Edited August 5, 2016 by Tacenda 1
JLHPROF Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 8 hours ago, sunstoned said: Back then the idea of a theocracy was very strong. BY was a true follower of JS and bought into the whole king of the world, council of 50 thing. He had himself crowned. He worked to expand the borders of Deseret, and even tried to establish a sea port. His reach got as far as San Bernardino California. He sent families on missions to Southern Utah to start mining and farming concerns He lived in a mansion in SLC, and had a winder home in St. George. All paid for by the church. You wouldn't recognize it today, but the animosity between the church and the government ran deep for many years. The oath of vengeance against the U.S. wasn't taken out of the temple ceremony until the 1930's. You say this like it's a bad thing. (Yes, I removed the other claims containing your falsely negative spin). 8 hours ago, James Tunney said: You speak the truth. BY was our Stalin and JS was as Lenin. More like Joseph was our Washington and Brigham was our Jefferson. 4
Sanpitch Posted August 5, 2016 Author Posted August 5, 2016 14 hours ago, Jeanne said: I hope you can get some answers. My great great grandparents were children in the handcart company coming from Wales. I wish that they had waited..rough going as BY was unable to get oxen to help out..(not sure about this)..so somebody answer! Jeanne, you need to read the history of those stuck in Wyoming in the snow and freezing and starving to death. There was saviors send from SLC with food and supplies that saved the Martin Company, I don't really know much about the Willie Company. But the Willie Company only lost 67 who died, the Martin Company lost about 140. Apparently the Martin group had it worse. Tacenda, what book do you have on that episode? I'm wondering if I'm familiar with it. 9 hours ago, Coreyb said: Several revelations commanded saints to gather to Zion and be saved as the world would soon be destroyed Coreyb, that is exactly what my OP discussion was about with someone else. I remember reading that they felt the end was near and they had to get to Zion. If so they were misled though there were other reasons to come to Zion as most had nothing in Europe, but not worth dying for. 1
Tacenda Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 24 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: Jeanne, you need to read the history of those stuck in Wyoming in the snow and freezing and starving to death. There was saviors send from SLC with food and supplies that saved the Martin Company, I don't really know much about the Willie Company. But the Willie Company only lost 67 who died, the Martin Company lost about 140. Apparently the Martin group had it worse. Tacenda, what book do you have on that episode? I'm wondering if I'm familiar with it. Coreyb, that is exactly what my OP discussion was about with someone else. I remember reading that they felt the end was near and they had to get to Zion. If so they were misled though there were other reasons to come to Zion as most had nothing in Europe, but not worth dying for. I took photos, but in case they're hard to read it's called Charlotte Elizabeth, a tale of tenacity, tragedy & triumph. It's basically the story through the eyes of 15 year old Charlotte. Although there wasn't a diary or journal found from her, with the aid of Josiah Rogerson's papers and the records of many others, the author, Joann Mellor Felix, was able to put the book together which took four years to accomplish. According to the preface, when the author tried to get her book published they wanted her to cut 100 pages from the manuscript, which would be nearly half the book and another publisher was not looking for fictional books so she finally just self-published the book. There were dozens and dozens of footnotes/sources. 1
Sanpitch Posted August 5, 2016 Author Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) Oh yes, Tacenda, I'm familiar with that book though I haven't read it. The author is my dad's niece and I've heard her perform part of it in person as though she is Charlotte. It sounded too much like a novel to me and I wasn't interested in the book, even if she does have references. Thank you. I've typed James Mellor's journal along with the journals of others who were involved so I've been through the story before. Typed the histories so they would be on computers. Edited August 5, 2016 by Sanpitch Addition and correction 1
Jeanne Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 9 hours ago, Tacenda said: And no one can ever take that away Jeanne. My ancestor was in the Martin handcart company and from England. I have a book about their trek and haven't finished it. I should send it to Sanpitch when I finish, since we have the same ancestors. It was given to me by someone in my neighborhood who found out where my parents were from and the last name Mellor, and her dad grew up nearby and knew the person that wrote or put together the book. Shame on me for not having finished it. Oooo...I will pay you for a copy!! No...it is hard for people to understand..that in my heart..I am mormon because these people are my people! 1
Jeanne Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 52 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I took photos, but in case they're hard to read it's called Charlotte Elizabeth, a tale of tenacity, tragedy & triumph. It's basically the story through the eyes of 15 year old Charlotte. Although there wasn't a diary or journal found from her, with the aid of Josiah Rogerson's papers and the records of many others, the author, Joann Mellor Felix, was able to put the book together which took four years to accomplish. According to the preface, when the author tried to get her book published they wanted her to cut 100 pages from the manuscript, which would be nearly half the book and another publisher was not looking for fictional books so she finally just self-published the book. There were dozens and dozens of footnotes/sources. Oh...this sounds so interesting and could help me understand their hearts and mindsets..and of course, their courage!!
Sanpitch Posted August 5, 2016 Author Posted August 5, 2016 5 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Oh...this sounds so interesting and could help me understand their hearts and mindsets..and of course, their courage!! Jeanne, I think you ought to read, "Handcarts to Zion" by Leroy R. Hafen and Ann W. Hafen. That covers all the hand cart companies and gives statics on deaths and the number of people involved etc. It must be available somewhere. 2
Jeanne Posted August 5, 2016 Posted August 5, 2016 4 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: Jeanne, I think you ought to read, "Handcarts to Zion" by Leroy R. Hafen and Ann W. Hafen. That covers all the hand cart companies and gives statics on deaths and the number of people involved etc. It must be available somewhere. Thank you! I am loving this thread. I feel like I am getting to know my family!!! I will look for this book!
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