Elder Holland addresses issue of depression

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, consiglieri said:

Again we see the constant refrain that the Church does nothing wrong.  It is the members who are all screwed up.

And of course, the Church has nothing to do with the fact the members are screwed up. 

If you have a person who grew up with perfectionist parents and suffers from depression because he could never please them, that is all the kids fault.

 

Right?

The parents who did not live according to gospel principals, did not understand or teach the atonement, and placed undo expectations on their children are the ones who should shoulder the burden. I have plenty of Asian-heritage students who have piles and piles of expectations put on them who have similar depression and anxiety problems. The Church is not responsible for the members who screw up. And there are kids that have parents with impossibly high expectations who do just fine in life.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

I'm glad he said this... "If you had appendicitis, God would expect you to seek a priesthood blessing and get the best medical care available. So too with emotional disorders. Our Father in Heaven expects us to use all of the marvelous gifts He has provided in this glorious dispensation."

 

Which is the most important lesson I have learned during the 3 times I have had major depression episodes and several minor ones. It seems to be genetic in our family....so it's something I and my kids (and one of my parent's and her ancestors) have to deal with all our lives. There are other diseases that waste you away, too. The good thing is that mental illness is more and more being recognized as an......illness, not a weakness of character or a punishment for sin. And the better news is that help is available.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[James Tunney]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

My experience is that what the individual brings to the game has much more to do with depression than what the Church expects of us.

I think we need to kill the perfect church/imperfect men dichotomy. The church does not exist independently of the imperfect men who run it. The church always was run by men and expressed by men. It is a man made institution just like any corporation. So, yes the "church" can and does cause harm in some cases. Sure there are those who bring their own problems to the mix but that does not mean that the "church" that is run by men cannot give less than perfect advice or cause problems.

[thesometimesaint]

On 6/20/2016 at 11:19 AM, Jeanne said:

Members should also realize that Bishops are not qualified for this kind of counseling.  I assume Bishops are getting them some support like Family Services..but some members really think the Bishop may have all the answers.  It is nice to have this acknowledged though.

In order to be a good Bishop you have to be willing to listen, and humble enough to know when you've reached the limits of your ability.

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

In order to be a good Bishop you have to be willing to listen, and humble enough to know when you've reached the limits of your ability.

So true!

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, James Tunney said:

I think we need to kill the perfect church/imperfect men dichotomy. The church does not exist independently of the imperfect men who run it. The church always was run by men and expressed by men. It is a man made institution just like any corporation. So, yes the "church" can and does cause harm in some cases. Sure there are those who bring their own problems to the mix but that does not mean that the "church" that is run by men cannot give less than perfect advice or cause problems.

The Church teaches that the Church was made by Christ. Not your normal imperfect man.

[jkwilliams]

One caution I would make is in being careful with the idea that our faith will get us through the depression. In my own experience, when I linked faith to depression, then obviously my faith wasn't strong enough because I was depressed, which made me even more depressed. When you're seriously depressed, it's almost impossible to look outside of yourself, even to God. 

[consiglieri]

11 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

I can think of messages from General Authorities which are reassuring and consoling, which encourage believers to trust the mercy and the love of Christ insofar as none of us can do it all, be it all, or achieve it all.

I can also think of messages which set the pace, which set the mark, which hold members to an unrealistic high standard that we might stretch ourselves.

I tend to think that both are needful and that we need to work out within ourselves a balance between being the best we absolutely can be, and resting upon the mercies and the grace of God. 

One cause of depression among LDS may be the struggle to achieve such a balance. Or even to recognize that such a balance is needed.

Perhaps the Church could do more to encourage such balance?

I can tell you a story of an elderly couple who are friends of mine who left the LDS Church a number of years back and joined a fundamentalist Christian Church that focused on forgiveness instead of perfection.

They tell me they felt like a HUGE WEIGHT was lifted off their shoulders.

This is the weight most LDS feel.  It is the weight of perfectionism they are taught they must achieve.

I think it is this weight that causes a lot of depression, because it is a weight that can never be lifted; a perfection that can never be obtained.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, consiglieri said:

I can tell you a story of an elderly couple who are friends of mine who left the LDS Church a number of years back and joined a fundamentalist Christian Church that focused on forgiveness instead of perfection.

They tell me they felt like a HUGE WEIGHT was lifted off their shoulders.

This is the weight most LDS feel.  It is the weight of perfectionism they are taught they must achieve.

I think it is this weight that causes a lot of depression, because it is a weight that can never be lifted; a perfection that can never be obtained.

That resonates with me, certainly. Long-term depression + perfectionism = a pretty unhappy life when I was active in the church.

[consiglieri]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

That resonates with me, certainly. Long-term depression + perfectionism = a pretty unhappy life when I was active in the church.

I don't want to overgeneralize, but I think there is a distinct pathology that occurs among many Mormons.

The perfectionism required, but never achieved, causes depression and unhappiness.  (Of course, some don't really take it seriously and so there are fewer problems.  There are some who actually may think they are perfect, and they will have different problems.  What I am talking about, though, is the center of the bell curve.)

But the Mormons who are unhappy because of their constant inability to measure up to the standard of perfection ALSO know that the gospel is supposed to be making them happy.  In fact, the gospel is the only way for true happiness to be found.

So what we are left with is a bunch of Mormons who are unhappy because they can't measure up pretending they are happy because they know they are supposed to be.

You have heard of cognitive dissonance?  I don't know if it is an actual term, but I think Mormons of this stripe struggle with emotional dissonance.

[thesometimesaint]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That resonates with me, certainly. Long-term depression + perfectionism = a pretty unhappy life when I was active in the church.

Perfectionism is counter to the LDS faith.

SEE http://www.ldsliving.com/LDS-Perfectionism-Research-Reveals-Pros-Cons/s/77977

SEE https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/07/young-adults/becoming-perfect-in-christ?lang=eng

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

I don't want to overgeneralize, but I think there is a distinct pathology that occurs among many Mormons.

The perfectionism required, but never achieved, causes depression and unhappiness.  (Of course, some don't really take it seriously and so there are fewer problems.  There are some who actually may think they are perfect, and they will have different problems.  What I am talking about, though, is the center of the bell curve.)

But the Mormons who are unhappy because of their constant inability to measure up to the standard of perfection ALSO know that the gospel is supposed to be making them happy.  In fact, the gospel is the only way for true happiness to be found.

So what we are left with is a bunch of Mormons who are unhappy because they can't measure up pretending they are happy because they know they are supposed to be.

You have heard of cognitive dissonance?  I don't know if it is an actual term, but I think Mormons of this stripe struggle with emotional dissonance.

I would never extrapolate my experience to the church as a whole, but I would say that I know a lot of Mormons and former Mormons who have experienced what I have. So I know I am not alone. It's weird because people like me seem to accept the atonement as an abstract concept, but we don't really apply it to how we are living. I remember getting a handout in Gospel Doctrine that was a pyramid-shaped diagram about how you gain exaltation. There were faith, repentance, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, priesthood/magnifying callings, temple covenants, enduring to the end, and so on. At the very top of the pyramid was a little triangle labeled "Atonement," as if it was the cherry on top after you had done all you could do to save yourself. A bit of this attitude shows up in the Bible Dictionary entry for "Grace": "It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts."  To me, this meant that if I was doing good works and was happy, I was partaking of grace. That I wasn't good enough and wasn't happy meant I was not worthy of grace. Kind of a catch-22.

[consiglieri]

39 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I would never extrapolate my experience to the church as a whole, but I would say that I know a lot of Mormons and former Mormons who have experienced what I have. So I know I am not alone. It's weird because people like me seem to accept the atonement as an abstract concept, but we don't really apply it to how we are living. I remember getting a handout in Gospel Doctrine that was a pyramid-shaped diagram about how you gain exaltation. There were faith, repentance, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, priesthood/magnifying callings, temple covenants, enduring to the end, and so on. At the very top of the pyramid was a little triangle labeled "Atonement," as if it was the cherry on top after you had done all you could do to save yourself. A bit of this attitude shows up in the Bible Dictionary entry for "Grace": "It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts."  To me, this meant that if I was doing good works and was happy, I was partaking of grace. That I wasn't good enough and wasn't happy meant I was not worthy of grace. Kind of a catch-22.

I hear what you are saying.  Having joined the LDS Church in 1978, and having learned and studied a great deal of Mormon soteriology, it soon became apparent to me that the prevalent LDS view of the Atonement was an image of Jesus with a mop and pail to clean up after us when we made a mistake.

But the burden to be perfect was squarely on our shoulders.

It was President Kimball, I believe, who famously said we have to lift ourselves "by our own bootstraps."

Of course we would make mistakes from time to time in our quest for perfection, and hence the need for Jesus with the mop, but we were taught that if we really tried, we could achieve perfection in this life.

And this is why, we were taught, Jesus capped off the Sermon on the Mount with the injunction to his disciples to be perfect, even as his Father in Heaven is perfect.

I believe that was even a scripture mastery verse. Matthew 5:48?

 

[ERMD]

On 6/20/2016 at 4:01 PM, consiglieri said:

I think the LDS Church would better serve its members by recognizing the contribution its doctrinal position on perfectionism plays into depression.

I mean, there is a reason depression is so high among LDS . . .

Strawman

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

Perfectionism is counter to the LDS faith.

SEE http://www.ldsliving.com/LDS-Perfectionism-Research-Reveals-Pros-Cons/s/77977

SEE https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/07/young-adults/becoming-perfect-in-christ?lang=eng

Do you think perfectionism is a problem at all in the church?

[stemelbow]

Just now, jkwilliams said:

Do you think perfectionism is a problem at all in the church?

I question whether it's any more a problem for Mormons than it is for others in our culture.  My concern with LDS teaching is far less about a standard of perfection, even if I don't like that mindset, and more about the idea that we can comfortably leave people behind. 

[thesometimesaint]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

Do you think perfectionism is a problem at all in the church?

Yes, but it is a function of members misunderstanding of the principle.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfectionism_(psychology)

[Rain]

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Which is the most important lesson I have learned during the 3 times I have had major depression episodes and several minor ones. It seems to be genetic in our family....so it's something I and my kids (and one of my parent's and her ancestors) have to deal with all our lives. There are other diseases that waste you away, too. The good thing is that mental illness is more and more being recognized as an......illness, not a weakness of character or a punishment for sin. And the better news is that help is available.

I think it is important to recognize that not all depression is the same.  For many there is a physical cause.  For others it can be caused by abuse or other environmental factors. And still others may feel depression through sin. Or a combination of factors. We do a diservice to those affected by telling all it is physical and they need meds or other physical treatments and that spiritual treatment is not needed (not that I felt you did,  just that what you said relates to it.)  Accordingly, each person should find a treatment or combination of treatments that works for them specifically. 

And it may change for each person. Each time I have felt it I felt there were different treatments I should use. 

[thesometimesaint]

2 minutes ago, Rain said:

I think it is important to recognize that not all depression is the same.  For many there is a physical cause.  For others it can be caused by abuse or other environmental factors. And still others may feel depression through sin. Or a combination of factors. We do a diservice to those affected by telling all it is physical and they need meds or other physical treatments and that spiritual treatment is not needed (not that I felt you did,  just that what you said relates to it.)  Accordingly, each person should find a treatment or combination of treatments that works for them specifically. 

And it may change for each person. Each time I have felt it I felt there were different treatments I should use. 

Everyone gets the blues every once in a while. That is part of the human condition, clinical depression is something quite different.

[jkwilliams]

7 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Yes, but it is a function of members misunderstanding of the principle.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfectionism_(psychology)

When I was active in the church, that wouldn't have helped. I would have just felt worse for having gotten it wrong. I don't think this perfectionism comes out of nowhere, as if significant numbers of people are simply misunderstanding gospel principles. 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I would never extrapolate my experience to the church as a whole, but I would say that I know a lot of Mormons and former Mormons who have experienced what I have. So I know I am not alone. It's weird because people like me seem to accept the atonement as an abstract concept, but we don't really apply it to how we are living. I remember getting a handout in Gospel Doctrine that was a pyramid-shaped diagram about how you gain exaltation. There were faith, repentance, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, priesthood/magnifying callings, temple covenants, enduring to the end, and so on. At the very top of the pyramid was a little triangle labeled "Atonement," as if it was the cherry on top after you had done all you could do to save yourself. A bit of this attitude shows up in the Bible Dictionary entry for "Grace": "It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts."  To me, this meant that if I was doing good works and was happy, I was partaking of grace. That I wasn't good enough and wasn't happy meant I was not worthy of grace. Kind of a catch-22.

And yet that isn't how it has been for me. This is an idea I hear a lot and I have spent a lot of time thinking about how I understood it differently than you do. I can go through church resources and it seems obvious how grace is there through the whole process etc. It's a very simple concept that gives my whole life light....for me. What is different that others feel weighed down by perfection?

Because of my experiences I can't look at the church and say the church and the doctrine are the problem. There are intellugent, spiritual people who struggle with this so I can't say the person isn't spiritual enough, trying hard enough etc. So what is it? I don't know,  but I wish I did. 

 

[Rain]

7 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Everyone gets the blues every once in a while. That is part of the human condition, clinical depression is something quite different.

I know the difference quite well.  It would be nice if all I had experienced was the blues.  

[Gray]

The narrative around perfection seems to be shifting, but there was definitely a strong streak of perfectionism in church teachings for many years.

 

Quote

Let me say, then, that perfection is still our goal. It is reached by climbing steadily upward, controlling all our desires, impulses, and urges. It is possible. Remember that the Lord gave us Abraham as an example and quoted him often: “Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne” (D&C 132:29). This is not a promise; it is a reality. “Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved” (D&C 132:32).

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/spencer-w-kimball_ye-therefore-perfect/

 

Quote

We talk about the gospel in its fulness; yet we realize that a large part is still available to us as we prepare, as we perfect our lives, and as we become more like our God. Are we ready for it? In the Doctrine and Covenants we read of Abraham, who has already attained godhood. He has received many powers, undoubtedly, that we would like to have and will eventually get if we continue faithful and perfect our lives.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1977/04/our-great-potential?lang=eng

 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Gray said:

The narrative around perfection seems to be shifting, but there was definitely a strong streak of perfectionism in church teachings for many years.

I remember hearing in conference that we could master one commandment at a time, and each time we would be "perfect" in that one commandment. Eventually, we could learn to be completely obedient to all commandments and would thus be perfect in all things. This was mightily discouraging to me because I felt I couldn't even be perfect in one thing. 

[thesometimesaint]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

When I was active in the church, that wouldn't have helped. I would have just felt worse for having gotten it wrong. I don't think this perfectionism comes out of nowhere, as if significant numbers of people are simply misunderstanding gospel principles. 

I find it self defeating to blame myself and/or someone/something else for my misunderstandings. I just accept that I've been wrong many times in the past and probably will continue to be wrong on somethings for the foreseeable future. However I do try to learn from my mistakes. So as not to repeat them. I make new ones instead.

The principles of the Gospel are pretty simple to understand; Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Receipt of the Holy Ghost. Nowhere do I see a requirement to perfectionism. We can't/won't do it on our own. We hurt ourselves, and others when we demand it.