Elder Holland addresses issue of depression

[jkwilliams]

Just now, thesometimesaint said:

I find it self defeating to blame myself and/or someone/something else for my misunderstandings. I just accept that I've been wrong many times in the past and probably will continue to be wrong on somethings for the foreseeable future. However I do try to learn from my mistakes. So as not to repeat them. I make new ones instead.

The principles of the Gospel are pretty simple to understand; Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Receipt of the Holy Ghost. Nowhere do I see a requirement to perfectionism. We can't/won't do it on our own. We hurt ourselves, and others when we demand it.

I'm not placing blame. I'm just saying that it's not correct to suggest that the perfectionists have simply invented the whole thing out of nowhere. 

[consiglieri]

37 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Do you think perfectionism is a problem at all in the church?

Well, let's see.

Here is a quote from the first link provided by thesometimesaint:

Quote

And in a church that strives for perfection and has high expectations, members frequently find themselves coming up short, which can lead to discouragement, dissatisfaction, and stress.

One wonders why an entire article would be devoted to dealing with the problem of perfectionism in the LDS Church if a lot of members weren't having a problem with it.

[consiglieri]

10 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

The principles of the Gospel are pretty simple to understand; Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Receipt of the Holy Ghost. Nowhere do I see a requirement to perfectionism. We can't/won't do it on our own. We hurt ourselves, and others when we demand it.

Is there a reason you omitted the fifth principle so frequently enunciated by Church leaders of "enduring to the end" in keeping all the commandments of God? 

 

[thesometimesaint]

13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm not placing blame. I'm just saying that it's not correct to suggest that the perfectionists have simply invented the whole thing out of nowhere. 

I never said that perfectionists invented it. What I have said that taken to extremes it is maladaptive.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, thesometimesaint said:

I never said that perfectionists invented it. What I have said that taken to extremes it is maladaptive.

So, how do you counter this tendency among some members?

[thesometimesaint]

13 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Is there a reason you omitted the fifth principle so frequently enunciated by Church leaders of "enduring to the end" in keeping all the commandments of God? 

 

No. Other than my normal laziness in connecting all the dots. If we don't follow through to the end of our days, all the rest is futile.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I think a lot of depression within the church is by members who don't feel appreciated enough by other members. Wards are supposed to be like a family, but some members are always ignored. It's especially harder when you're ignored in a single's ward.

[Doctor Steuss]

On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 5:58 PM, CountryBoy said:

 [...] People depress themselves.  [...]

May you never know the dark night of the soul -- this thought will keep you trapped there for a very long time.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Doctor Steuss

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Doctor Steuss said:

May you never know the dark night of the soul -- this thought will keep you trapped there for a very long time.

Indeed. I remember having a conversation with my mother about depression, and she didn't get it until I explained the brain chemistry involved. The idea that "people depress themselves" makes about as much sense as "people give themselves cancer" or "Stephen Hawking gave himself ALS." 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I got a quartet of Tourettes Syndrome, ADHD, Depression, and Anxiety. My brain is never under control and it sucks.

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I got a quartet of Tourettes Syndrome, ADHD, Depression, and Anxiety. My brain is never under control and it sucks.

Yeah, it sucks, but imagine how bad it would be for us if we didn't have meds. My life is better because of modern medicine.

[Doctor Steuss]

2 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I got a quartet of Tourettes Syndrome, ADHD, Depression, and Anxiety. My brain is never under control and it sucks.

One thing I have learned about mental illness, is it rarely likes to travel alone.  With my bipolar disorder, I've got a fun smattering of social anxiety, OCD, hyper-empathy, phantosmia, and a little sensory overload seasoned to perfection.

Sorry you've got that little cocktail of funk you're battling.  If nothing else though, just think of how much more colorful your life has been because of the added spectrums of #&!^%#(($(*@&@.

[jkwilliams]

22 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said:

One thing I have learned about mental illness, is it rarely likes to travel alone.  With my bipolar disorder, I've got a fun smattering of social anxiety, OCD, hyper-empathy, phantosmia, and a little sensory overload seasoned to perfection.

Sorry you've got that little cocktail of funk you're battling.  If nothing else though, just think of how much more colorful your life has been because of the added spectrums of #&!^%#(($(*@&@.

I've got all but the Tourette's, so I don't even get that added benefit.

[UtahTexan]

5 hours ago, Doctor Steuss said:

May you never know the dark night of the soul -- this thought will keep you trapped there for a very long time.

Ah...but I do.

I was so depressed after my divorce that I almost committed suicide.  An accidental intervention prevented it.  I went to the VA Psych folks.  They diagnosed me and wanted to prescribe meds  The side effects sounded more depressing than my depression.  Once I was diagnosed, I realized what it was.  I determined NOT to be depressed.  I self-cured.  All I needed was the knowledge and prayer.

So...you are wrong.  May YOU never be where I was...and if you are....I pray you are not as weak as folks here sound

It is all a matter of strength.  Inner will.  I have had 6 knee surgeries and a broken back....but, I have learned to deal with the pain and walk a minimum of 5 miles a day.  I have had constant tinnitus since 1993.  A tone that never goes away.  Constant.  24/7.  For 23 years.  Sometimes, it is so loud, I cannot believe others do not hear it.  At night, it would keep me awake until I started playing nature sounds at night.  I have learned to mostly block it out or it would drive me crazy.

Life is what it is.  I could depressed that I had no father (abandoned after being beaten till I was 5...later practically sold).  But I choose not to be.

I lean on Heavenlly Father.  I cannot tell you how much strength I get from that.

Edited June 23, 2016 by CountryBoy

[Calm]

6 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

When I was active in the church, that wouldn't have helped. I would have just felt worse for having gotten it wrong. I don't think this perfectionism comes out of nowhere, as if significant numbers of people are simply misunderstanding gospel principles. 

It would be best to demonstrate that perfectionism runs higher among LDS than in similar groups before assuming it isspecifically our doctrine that is causing it.

It may be there is no significant difference, it may be culture brought in fromother heritage (perhaps perfectionism is one of thethings that motivates people to lookfor a new church and then these converts pass this on to their children).

I do know that it is church doctrine that is helping me get past my family's tradition of perfectionism, which was never tied in my mind at least to church teachings but I can see in various ancestors due to their intense hunger for social status.

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

It would be best to demonstrate that perfectionism runs higher among LDS than in similar groups before assuming it isspecifically our doctrine that is causing it.

It may be there is no significant difference, it may be culture brought in fromother heritage (perhaps perfectionism is one of thethings that motivates people to lookfor a new church and then these converts pass this on to their children).

I do know that it is church doctrine that is helping me get past my family's tradition of perfectionism, which was never tied in my mind at least to church teachings but I can see in various ancestors due to their intense hunger for social status.

I don't have any idea how prevalent it is in the church. I recognize how certain personality traits and teachings at home combined with things at church to produce my obsessive perfectionism.  As I said, I would not generalize it, but I know I'm not alone. 

[UtahTexan]

6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't have any idea how prevalent it is in the church. I recognize how certain personality traits and teachings at home combined with things at church to produce my obsessive perfectionism.  As I said, I would not generalize it, but I know I'm not alone. 

So maybe it is just you...and not the Church.  I am a perfectionist.  I need to always be the best.  No depression here.  Heck, I got in trouble in I brought home a B.  I dropped a fly ball once in a baseball game and my step-father left and went home.   All it did was make me stronger...strive to succeed.  Led me to be the first in my trailer-park family to go to college.  And then law school.  

Was I always perfect?  Nope.  But I did not spend time being depressed.  It drove me to do better.

[Jeanne]

16 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

Ah...but I do.

I was so depressed after my divorce that I almost committed suicide.  An accidental intervention prevented it.  I went to the VA Psych folks.  They diagnosed me and wanted to prescribe meds  The side effects sounded more depressing than my depression.  Once I was diagnosed, I realized what it was.  I determined NOT to be depressed.  I self-cured.  All I needed was the knowledge and prayer.

So...you are wrong.  May YOU never be where I was...and if you are....I pray you are not as weak as folks here sound

It is all a matter of strength.  Inner will.  I have had 6 knee surgeries and a broken back....but, I have learned to deal with the pain and walk a minimum of 5 miles a day.  I have had constant tinnitus since 1993.  A tone that never goes away.  Constant.  24/7.  For 26 years.  Sometimes, it is so loud, I cannot believe others do not hear it.  At night, it would keep me awake until I started playing nature sounds at night.  I have learned to mostly block it out or it would drive me crazy.

Life is what it is.  I could depressed that I had no father (abandoned after being beaten till I was 5...later practically sold).  But I choose not to be.

I lean on Heavenlly Father.  I cannot tell you how strength I get from that.

CountryBoy, I understand that you have a strong testimony now and that you are progressing in the church again.  I have mentioned in your other threads that i wish you great happiness and hope the desires of your heart are met in getting back into the church.  But recently in your posts here. though honesty is always a good thing, you seem very curt and sometimes cold about the journeys of others here.  One would think that you would be the most understanding.  Anyway, not everyone can just cure themselves and having deep depression is not a weakness..nor how we deal with it..a weakness.  Just hope that in your travels back into the church that you keep some openness and compassion for those who..I guess..aren't as strong as you are.  Hugs, Jeanne

[Calm]

I know lots of perfectionists inside the Church.  And lots outside.  Don't have a clue if itis more prevalent in or out, but given what I have seen expressed among friends who feel they have managed to correct much of their own tendencies Church doctrine has been a great aid to that end...though this may be a result of simply personal interpretation changing.

I would hate to see someone choose to ignore doctrine that could be helpful based on the claim that church doctrine causes or contributes to perfectionism.

[UtahTexan]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

CountryBoy, I understand that you have a strong testimony now and that you are progressing in the church again.  I have mentioned in your other threads that i wish you great happiness and hope the desires of your heart are met in getting back into the church. But recently in your posts here. though honesty is always a good thing, you seem very curt and sometimes cold about the journeys of others here.  One would think that you would be the most understanding.  Anyway, not everyone can just cure themselves and having deep depression is not a weakness..nor how we deal with it..a weakness.  Just hope that in your travels back into the church that you keep some openness and compassion for those who..I guess..aren't as strong as you are.  Hugs, Jeanne

Thank you for your kind wishes.  Curt about journeys?  Not really.  If they could have their "journeys" without blaming the Church, it would easier to be understanding.  I would gladly sit and listen and even try to help those who acknowledged issues...but it seems, more often than not, that they are just using their "journey" to bash the Church. 

I will gladly show compassion to anyone who does not use the Church as a scapegoat for every ill.

I never considered myself particularly unique inner strength.  This board has shown me otherwise.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Calm said:

I know lots of perfectionists inside the Church.  And lots outside.  Don't have a clue if itis more prevalent in or out, but given what I have seen expressed among friends who feel they have managed to correct much of their own tendencies Church doctrine has been a great aid to that end...though this may be a result of simply personal interpretation changing.

I would hate to see someone choose to ignore doctrine that could be helpful based on the claim that church doctrine causes or contributes to perfectionism.

I was just wondering how we might help people overcome perfectionism. Telling me "you got the doctrine wrong" wouldn't have helped. I don't know what would have helped. 

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

Thank you for your kind wishes.  Curt about journeys?  Not really.  If they could have their "journeys" without blaming the Church, it would easier to be understanding.  I would gladly sit and listen and even try to help those who acknowledged issues...but it seems, more often than not, that they are just using their "journey" to bash the Church. 

I will gladly show compassion to anyone who does not use the Church as a scapegoat for every ill.

I never considered myself particularly unique inner strength.  This board has shown me otherwise.

Thank you for your honest response and clarification. 

[UtahTexan]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

Thank you for your honest response and clarification. 

In my job, I help many, many people.  I have even counselled people getting divorced to reunite (not a great way to make money as a divorce attorney).

Perhaps I am just jaundiced.  But the people here seem to find every and all reasons to bash the Church.  If you are hurting, perhaps a board like this is not the place to express all ills. 

I hope I make sense here.  

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Thank you for your honest response and clarification. 

For the record, I don't blame the church and never have. Some people seem to have a knee-jerk attack mode if anyone says anything about the church if it's not relentlessly positive. 

[UtahTexan]

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

For the record, I don't blame the church and never have. Some people seem to have a knee-jerk attack mode if anyone says anything about the church if it's not relentlessly positive. 

Read your posts.  It is easy to get that idea.  No knee-jerk......I am not a knee-jerk kinda guy.  Would not serve me well as a litigator, or LTC.....what DOES serve me well, is plowing thru BS and reading what you write....