James Tunney Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 9 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: Read your posts. It is easy to get that idea. No knee-jerk......I am not a knee-jerk kinda guy. Would not serve me well as a litigator, or LTC.....what DOES serve me well, is plowing thru BS and reading what you write.... Is it a fair statement that "it's possible for the church to make mistakes?"
Jeanne Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 14 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: In my job, I help many, many people. I have even counselled people getting divorced to reunite (not a great way to make money as a divorce attorney). Perhaps I am just jaundiced. But the people here seem to find every and all reasons to bash the Church. If you are hurting, perhaps a board like this is not the place to express all ills. I hope I make sense here. If you will look at a previous post of mine on this thread, the first sentence I wrote was.."the church does not cause depression". I feel or at least try to be fair with my experiences in and outside the church. I am still learning. Good luck on your own journey..and if it is okay with others here, I would like to stay and continue mine.
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 10 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: Read your posts. It is easy to get that idea. No knee-jerk......I am not a knee-jerk kinda guy. Would not serve me well as a litigator, or LTC.....what DOES serve me well, is plowing thru BS and reading what you write.... Your lack of reading comprehension is yours to own.
UtahTexan Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Just now, jkwilliams said: Your lack of reading comprehension is yours to own. Your denial is yours. I comprehend just fine. You wanna get into a battle of insults, let me know. Though, it will likely depress you
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Just now, CountryBoy said: Your denial is yours. I comprehend just fine. You wanna get into a battle of insults, let me know. Though, it will likely depress you Mocking depression. Awesome.
UtahTexan Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, James Tunney said: Is it a fair statement that "it's possible for the church to make mistakes?" Nothing run by men will ever be perfect. When i left the Church, certain members did horrible things...it was not the church, it was them. I have never said the men who run the Church are perfect. But to continually blame the Church for every hangnail is silly and intellectually dishonest
UtahTexan Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Mocking depression. Awesome. Not at all. You started insulting me.....was just advising against it. Though you are simply adorable for mocking my comprehension then acting all wounded. Edited June 23, 2016 by CountryBoy
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 1 minute ago, CountryBoy said: Not at all. You started insulting me.....was just advising against it. No insult intended. You just seem to read a lot into my posts, and I am not sure why.
ttribe Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 1 hour ago, CountryBoy said: Ah...but I do. I was so depressed after my divorce that I almost committed suicide. An accidental intervention prevented it. I went to the VA Psych folks. They diagnosed me and wanted to prescribe meds The side effects sounded more depressing than my depression. Once I was diagnosed, I realized what it was. I determined NOT to be depressed. I self-cured. All I needed was the knowledge and prayer. So...you are wrong. May YOU never be where I was...and if you are....I pray you are not as weak as folks here sound It is all a matter of strength. Inner will. I have had 6 knee surgeries and a broken back....but, I have learned to deal with the pain and walk a minimum of 5 miles a day. I have had constant tinnitus since 1993. A tone that never goes away. Constant. 24/7. For 23 years. Sometimes, it is so loud, I cannot believe others do not hear it. At night, it would keep me awake until I started playing nature sounds at night. I have learned to mostly block it out or it would drive me crazy. Life is what it is. I could depressed that I had no father (abandoned after being beaten till I was 5...later practically sold). But I choose not to be. I lean on Heavenlly Father. I cannot tell you how much strength I get from that. Perhaps that worked for you; it doesn't work for everyone. Being different from you does not automatically qualify other people as weak. 1
UtahTexan Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 1 minute ago, jkwilliams said: No insult intended. You just seem to read a lot into my posts, and I am not sure why. Really? I do not think so....when threads on depression have posts claiming the Church demands perfection, etc...it does not take leaps of logic. But...prove me wring. See if you can leave the Church out of your problems. Perhaps, you are used to being passive-aggressive. Me? I am just aggressive
UtahTexan Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, ttribe said: Perhaps that worked for you; it doesn't work for everyone. Being different from you does not automatically qualify other people as weak. Not having strength does, though
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Just now, CountryBoy said: Really? I do not think so....when threads on depression have posts claiming the Church demands perfection, etc...it does not take leaps of logic. But...prove me wring. See if you can leave the Church out of your problems. Perhaps, you are used to being passive-aggressive. Me? I am just aggressive I said absolutely nothing about the church demanding perfection, so I believe I am correct in saying you are reading things into my posts that are not there. You can be aggressive without making things up.
James Tunney Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 8 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: Nothing run by men will ever be perfect. When i left the Church, certain members did horrible things...it was not the church, it was them. I have never said the men who run the Church are perfect. But to continually blame the Church for every hangnail is silly and intellectually dishonest Don't some people misinterpret the perfection doctrine and don't the leaders know this by now? Don't you think it's possible that some get depressed by the perfection doctrine? Sure there is personal responsibility but the church never seems to take responsibility for bad results that seem related to its actions. Hence never giving apologies according to oaks. 1
UtahTexan Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Just now, James Tunney said: Don't some people misinterpret the perfection doctrine and don't the leaders know this by now? Don't you think it's possible that some get depressed by the perfection doctrine? Sure there is personal responsibility but the church never seems to take responsibility for bad results that seem related to its actions. Hence never giving apologies according to oaks. That is like saying, My father demanded I always follow the law. I broke the law. My father is upset because I broke the law. Him demanding I keep the law has depressed me." No. Your own actions caused it. Just because the Church has standards does not mean they should bend them to suit you so you will not get depressed. Again...it takes strength. And, though I never felt particularly unique about my strength....apparently, here, I am very unique. Maybe it is a Utah thing. I dunno.
UtahTexan Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: I don't have any idea how prevalent it is in the church. I recognize how certain personality traits and teachings at home combined with things at church to produce my obsessive perfectionism. As I said, I would not generalize it, but I know I'm not alone. Ok....I just made this up.......or did I?
ttribe Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: Not having strength does, though You've simply expressed the same ignorant opinion, only coming at it from another direction. Congratulations. Edited June 23, 2016 by ttribe
UtahTexan Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 48 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I was just wondering how we might help people overcome perfectionism. Telling me "you got the doctrine wrong" wouldn't have helped. I don't know what would have helped. and this was in response to someone talking about perfectionists in the Church
UtahTexan Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 8 hours ago, jkwilliams said: I would never extrapolate my experience to the church as a whole, but I would say that I know a lot of Mormons and former Mormons who have experienced what I have. So I know I am not alone. It's weird because people like me seem to accept the atonement as an abstract concept, but we don't really apply it to how we are living. I remember getting a handout in Gospel Doctrine that was a pyramid-shaped diagram about how you gain exaltation. There were faith, repentance, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, priesthood/magnifying callings, temple covenants, enduring to the end, and so on. At the very top of the pyramid was a little triangle labeled "Atonement," as if it was the cherry on top after you had done all you could do to save yourself. A bit of this attitude shows up in the Bible Dictionary entry for "Grace": "It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts." To me, this meant that if I was doing good works and was happy, I was partaking of grace. That I wasn't good enough and wasn't happy meant I was not worthy of grace. Kind of a catch-22. And this
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: Ok....I just made this up.......or did I? How is that blaming the church? I thought I was pretty clear that my reading of church teachings was colored by my upbringing and personality.
UtahTexan Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, ttribe said: You've simply expressed the same ignorant opinion, only coming at it from another direction. Congratulations. Ah....shucks. More insults....lol Just because my opinion is above you, it is not ignorant. But...to be fair....anything YOU call ignorant, I figure is spot on. So...thank you
ttribe Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: Ah....shucks. More insults....lol Just because my opinion is above you, it is not ignorant. But...to be fair....anything YOU call ignorant, I figure is spot on. So...thank you I insulted the opinion you expressed, not you personally. But...whatever.
UtahTexan Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 1 minute ago, ttribe said: I insulted the opinion you expressed, not you personally. But...whatever. lol....more passive-aggressive. But.....thank you anyway.
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 If we are to pretend that the church has no negative effects in our lives because that would be "blaming" the church, wouldn't it also require us to say the church has no positive effects? 2
UtahTexan Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Just now, jkwilliams said: If we are to pretend that the church has no negative effects in our lives because that would be "blaming" the church, wouldn't it also require us to say the church has no positive effects? Again....you are trying to find blame on everything else. Let me try this.... Law School had a very negative effect in my life. It was hard. it was all-consuming. It left me very tired and mentally exhausted. If I work myself sick in law school to the point I am ill, is it law school's fault? No. Many people experience the same exact thing and are fine. Maybe it is how I handled it. maybe it is because I also had to full-time while others didn't. Did the standards and work load law school cause it? No. Not at all. The Church did not cause anything. Did it disappoint? Did some members make it tough? If I told you what members did to me in 1989, it would make your hair stand on end. But was that the Church? No. Does that make sense?
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Just now, CountryBoy said: Again....you are trying to find blame on everything else. Let me try this.... Law School had a very negative effect in my life. It was hard. it was all-consuming. It left me very tired and mentally exhausted. If I work myself sick in law school to the point I am ill, is it law school's fault? No. Many people experience the same exact thing and are fine. Maybe it is how I handled it. maybe it is because I also had to full-time while others didn't. Did the standards and work load law school cause it? No. Not at all. The Church did not cause anything. Did it disappoint? Did some members make it tough? If I told you what members did to me in 1989, it would make your hair stand on end. But was that the Church? No. Does that make sense? Then the church has no effects for good or ill. Fair enough. Seriously, though, I don't blame the church. It has been a big part of who I am, and I recognize the good I've gotten from it as well as the bad. Saying I blame the church would be like blaming life.
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